Welcome to the transcript of this week’s Talking the Blues Podcast for those with hearing difficulties or those that prefer to read rather than listen. As always enjoy and thanks for your support!
Paul: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, depending upon where in the world you are and what time of the day you’re listening to this episode, the final episode of the 23 -24 season of Talking the Blues.
Paul: Andy and George, delighted to be speaking to you once again, and Buenas Tardas, George.
George: Oh, shut up.
Andy: Well, you know, if I had a feeling that was coming.
George: I can’t say that in Spanish, I can’t say it in any… Yeah, I had a lovely holiday, thank you very much.
Paul: I think the opening music might be we’re off to sunny Spain or Blue Spanish Eyes maybe.
George: That was, it’s weird the way those things hit you. I sang Spanish Eyes almost the whole holiday. I think it’s a really cheesy song but it’s a really nice melody and I enjoyed singing it. And you go, why am I singing this?
Paul: and you just gave Jules two weeks of singing.
George: to myself, Paul. I don’t serenade my wife with that stuff, I say, Bruce Bruce. Morning, darling.
Paul: Oh god he’s off again
George: Quick, quick, give him an enchilada.
Paul: Should we talk about football or should we just like the mickey out of each other?
Andy: Of course we’ve got to really, haven’t we?
Paul: Um.
George: Well, who remind me we’ve missed what we haven’t talked about? Arsenal, obviously.
Andy: Yeah. Sheffield United. Right. Luton away.
George: Right. Is that it? That is it.
Andy: Yeah, I think that’s about it.
Paul: So that’s like a quarter of the season.
George: I just ask one question before we start on that, which is because that deadline has gone and the season is finished, if the club has to go into administration, we will start next season at minus nine points.
Paul: If that was the case, yes. Right. So…
George: Well, let’s try football.
Paul: I’m going to come back to that.
Andy: We’re jumping the gun there, bro, for crying out loud.
George: It’s because it’s the thing that’s most concerned me, Andy. Well, I understand that.
Paul: The season’s over, so, you know, that is, is, now is.
Andy: I mean, let’s look back a little bit. I mean, let’s take the Arsenal game for the kick off. We lost many, many blues. Many, many blues think that was a shockingly harsh decision by Michael Oliver on the handball by Jesus.
It does not excuse the fact that it was a shockingly bad ball from Ashley Young that produced it. But overall, I thought we were worth the point on Sunday at the Emirates. I thought we played at times, we played some half decent stuff.
We probably played some potentially some of the best football under Sean Dyce that we’ve seen wasn’t much of it because Arsenal dominated as everybody fully expected them to. But the few times when we did get forward with purpose, it wasn’t kick and rush, it wasn’t route one.
You know, there was some good build up play, some good good creation. You know, we had the DCL in the post and he had a second half effort saved and we took the lead or that was a deflection, but who cares?
And I thought overall, it was a fairly decent performance at the Emirates. You know, it’s just unfortunate in the end that that handball cost us a point.
Paul: Yeah, we definitely deserved a point, didn’t we? And it would have been fantastic to finish the season unbeaten in our six games. But I suppose in the grand scheme of things, it didn’t really matter, although clearly a matter to every Evertonian yet again made the effort to travel down to London to watch Everton play in a way game.
Andy: I mean that’s the other thing we really do need to pay tribute to is that fantastic travelling support again. I mean it’s just ridiculous almost the lengths that those guys and gals that go week in week out go through to get to every game and get behind the team and they they deserved a point even if those armchair TV watchers didn’t.
Those people that travelled to the Emirates and there was people from all over the world had managed to get there Evertonians. I thought they deserved a point. I don’t know about the play Arsenal deserved to win but having said that haven’t defended tremendously well at times.
Pickford made a couple of tremendous saves as has become the norm for him and we did play some relatively decent stuff when we had the opportunity to get forward. So I think there was a few encouraging signs there looking forward.
Obviously we don’t know what’s coming in the future. We don’t know you know where the club’s going to be in terms of ownership and where the squad’s going to be and probably we’ll spend some time shortly looking over the over the departures or potential departures.
Certainly the guaranteed departures the end of contract boys and then I guess we get to the the disappointing part of departures which is the players we don’t really want to go but we don’t really want to go but we might end up having to sell in order to raise capital.
George: There’s no might about it, Andy.
Andy: No, I know, I’m just kind of hanging on a prayer that something’s going to happen whereby we don’t have to go to the, you know, we don’t have to sell Branthwaite or we don’t have to sell Onana and we don’t have to sell Pickford and we don’t have to sell DCL and whatever.
There’s plenty of other players that we’d like to be moving on without being unkind to them. But unfortunately, those are the guys who are going to be probably first in the first in the shopping list, first on the shopping list, there are a number of other clubs.
Paul: It’s a buyers that’s market isn’t it. When you’re looking at Everton, it doesn’t take a genius to work out if you’re on the buying side what you have to do in order to extract players from Everton Football Club at this particular moment in time and that’s a sad reflection on where the club is and what the because of the mismanagement of the club, the immediate needs of the club come before what you might consider to be in the long -term interest of the club like holding players like Onana, you know, holding Pickford particular, sorry holding Branthwaite in particular.
But it’s, you know, the reality of the situation is that because Moshiri fluffed his lines yet again, when he chose 777 to be his chosen suitors, that we’ve gone through a whole season without new investment, just accumulated more debt, made the club more difficult to sell to anybody else and as a result, we now have to sell yet again and it’s happened periodically throughout Moshiri’s time here.
Our prize assets.
George: Yeah, it’s been Everton’s modus operandi for 20 years, Paul. I didn’t hear him except by kicking him. And what Michael Oliver was thinking, I just don’t know. I mean, it was fascinating that goal, in the sense that Everton had the ball, and Arsenal suddenly pressed very quickly, very hard, five times.
And at the fifth call, Young made the mistake. Now, it could have been any of the five, but it was him who made the mistake. But having watched the VAR, the slow motion action replay, Oliver’s decision was beyond me completely.
And you wonder, because I think you’ve said Andy before, that he’s the only ref who’s ever contradicted VAR, whether he’s got it in his head that he’s the odd man. But it was a bollocks of a decision.
It was clear. You know, Hayes just knew that whoever that was, was it Tarkowski ? I think it was coming, and there was a classic coming. And the only way he was going to get the ball was, and he did.
And it was, you know, understandable. I understood why he did what he did. But to say he didn’t do it, you just go, I don’t, I’m back to, I don’t know what I’m watching now.
Andy: Yeah.
George: I have no idea what I’m trying to watch, because he’s seen what I’ve seen, and anybody can see that Jesus is going, oh, I’ve got it. It’s ridiculous. It was a vile, vile decision. And you’re right. Both of you, you know, the performance from Evert deserved a point.
Andy: The interesting thing now is the Premier League have confirmed that the clubs are going to vote on whether VAR is going to be retained or not.
George: Interesting, that Klopp said he wouldn’t.
Andy: He wouldn’t retain it.
George: No, it was, you know, I thought, well done, Jürgen. Good lad.
Andy: Yeah, I’ll be honest, I’ve done my level best to stay away from everything Jurgen taught for the last week or so because it’s been end to end, wall to wall on the telly. I’ve grown tired of it.
George: Don’t watch the telly of it. Is he even right about that? No, I’m not saying that.
Andy: I’m not saying he isn’t right, but it’s just been complete overload. I wish I’d been in Spain with you. I wouldn’t have had to listen to it.
George: You would have had to listen to me going to Spanish. I would have had to listen to you.
Andy: going on about a year ago.
George: What do we think the 20 clubs will decide?
Andy: Well it needs, it needs to be, I don’t know if I’m wrong Paul, it needs to be 14 to 6, don’t it?
Paul: Why? Because that’s the rule. So you need a any vote needs a majority of a minimum majority minimum vote of 14 out of the 20.
George: It’s a great shame. Right. What do we think? Are there any soundings? Any predictions? Well, the motion is the way to do it. The three of us. What would you do? If you had a straight vote, what would you vote?
George: Don’t you? Paul?
Paul: The way it’s currently administered, I would ditch it.
George: Yeah. It’s unanimous, folks.
Andy: I mean it’s interesting it’s wolves that have put the notion forward because I’m sure there’s more than Wolves, I’m sure there’s three or four maybe five or six clubs who could comfortably have put that forward but wolves have put their head above the parapet and said no we want to table this motion and I think for the good of football I think it needs to be ditched and then it can be if they want to bring it back they’ve got to do an awful lot of work on deciding how on earth it’s going to operate because as we’ve said many many times video replay technology works perfectly in tennis cricket rugby league rugby union eye socket crown green bowling just about everything else the only sport that makes a complete nozzle of video technology is football
George: Correct.
Andy: and particularly in this country, not even so much in Europe, where they don’t have five minute delays while they review somebody’s toenail being offside. You know, it’s just the way it’s administered, the way it’s administered in this country is a joke.
So if they’re going to have the VAR, then they need to go away and decide exactly how they’re going to do it, run some trials and only if those trials are successful should it even be considered for reinstatement until some time.
Let’s go back to where we were, where everybody lives and dies by human error and if the referee makes a cock up or something or a lineman puts his flag up wrong, so be it. It should be a lot fairer than this arbitrary, well that’s handball, no it isn’t, well his toe was offside, no it wasn’t, his elbow was offside.
Hang on a minute, if it’s his elbow it would have been handball anyway. You know, but…
George: When you say that they need to go back and that’s not actually true, is it? Because it’s the 20 clubs who are going to decide whether or not it is kept. Then there’s another decision as to what they think about how it is.
It’s not, you know, it’s in the lap of the clubs, whether we keep it or not. I’d be surprised if a majority of people who watch football regularly, either on television or going to the matches, would support keeping it.
I’d be amazed.
Paul: Well, unfortunately, I think I think they are going to vote to keep it all the way to the right pole, albeit they’re going to change. Yeah, albeit they’re going to slightly change the the basis upon which it’s used.
So at the moment, it’s in what way? Well, the threshold for use of VRR is if one of the thresholds is if there’s a clear and obvious error, then you know, that’s, that’s, that’s within the rules. And I understood from, from the Times report, the Times newspaper report, that Howard Webb was going to propose that VRR should only intervene when it is what was the word that he used clearly wrong.
So that’s a higher benchmark and clear and obvious error. Yeah, so I think that they will retain it, but they will say that the point at which it becomes part of the game is a higher benchmark for that.
But then that’s just another judgment call. So, yeah, again, it doesn’t really change the way that the way that the rule is used, it just says that the rules are used in a slightly different set of circumstances.
But you’ve still then got to judge whether those circumstances, whether what happened meets those circumstances, which is the whole problem about VAR as it stands. So it’s a fudge.
George: Yeah, that’s what they’ll do.
Paul: They’re also talking about reducing the number of VAR specialists so that they, you know, when it’s referred, that they just have a smaller team of people.
George: Sorry, that just made me laugh, specialist, to be grateful.
Andy: Yeah.
George: Yeah. Michael Oliver, just human beings for crying out loud. You might as well put a fan in there.
Andy: Yeah.
Paul: I’m going to toss a coin.
George: Quite. I’m just, you know, how’s it get same to when I’m saying to Andrew the other day? I mean, this is sorry, you’re going to tell me off for not talking about Sheldon United next. The sports coverage on the mainstream media is absolutely juvenile.
George: I watched with the sound off the preamble of Jamie Redknapp and Jamie Carragher and anybody else called Jamie that they can find. Banging on about some match that I can’t even remember it was. And they’ve got wheels and they’ve got the number of times he’s kicked the ball with his left foot and this is all otter, otter.
Cajones, for those of you with fluent Spanish. Because what football programs should, and I really mean this, should be focusing on, is cheating. And they should be drawing attention to every single time players cheat.
Every single time. And instead of, you know, Gareth Crooks is game of the week or team of the week or, you know, goal of the month, it should be cheat of the month until these people are shamed and to stop doing it.
And we’re all at it. They’re all at it. You know, there was an incident in the Sheffield United match when Ghana went for a ball, didn’t win it, fell down. He was dead. He’s there to this, that and the other.
He looks up. It’s a referee. He’s not going to give the game away. He stuck his to his feet. Oh, I’m doing. And then he got back in position and he sprints back into position. That’s cheating. That’s trying to stop the game in order to gain the advantage.
I bet if one of those wheels was at what point the club start doing that, it’s after the first goal has been scored. And suddenly the gamesmanship just goes up another level. Oh, well, we’ll break this up.
We’ll stop this. Take a three minute. Are you going down now? Right. Let’s all go get a drink. I’m just sick to death of it. I’m sick to death of watching it. It just drives me nuts. There’s no reason for it.
You sent me a video of the other day of an Everton match from the 1970s. The hilarious bit of it with three corners. The ball was inside the quadrant. I know it’s a tiny thing, but if you cheat there, then you’ll cheat on the throw in and you’ll cheat on that.
Always hurt me. Always kick me. I’m just done in with it. I’d just like to watch a game of football, please. And I know it’s a contact sport, but instead of the nonsense that the media spends its time talking about, they should be trying to do something that would make the game better.
Nothing would make the game better than to put a stop to the cheating by shaming people. Because children are watching this and children are learning. If there’s any point to sport at all beyond the wealth of enormously rich people or the hope of wealth, it has to be that you’re teaching the greatest game the planet has ever had to children.
And you’re teaching them to roll about and pretend and stop. It’s just got to stop at some point. And it seems to me that’s what the media could, instead of, you know, just get on with it. Show some conscience about the game.
Show some care for the game. Thank you.
Paul: That care for the game doesn’t exist anywhere other than with the fans.
George: That’s what we are, Paul. That’s why I’m talking to you about it.
Paul: No, no. And, you know, not just talking about talking the blue, but that is the value of, you know, fan broadcasting, fan and fan production. Because everybody else, I mean, fans obviously have a vested interest towards our own clubs.
We want our own clubs to be successful and to be competitive and to be better and to play beautiful football, this and the other. But I like to think at least that the majority of fans also recognize a duty of care towards the game itself.
George: I think so. I hope so. Let me put it really simply. I’m enough of a fan that when the Arsenal player does it, I go, yeah, chase him. When the Everton player does it, and it’s the same action, I’m ashamed.
I’m tired of both reactions. I don’t see why I can’t watch him on this game of football. It can be dirty. We’ve seen plenty of…
Andy: It’s funny you mention that, bro, because if you think back to the good old days that we harp on about probably too much, when players did used to kick lumps off each other, there wasn’t half the thorn in them diving that there was these days.
Andy: Because, you know, if Jack Charlton was going to kick up the arse, you were going to kick up the arse. There was no half measures about it. You know, and if Jonny Morissey was going to turn down and poke you in the eye, he was going to do it.
It was no half measures of I’m going to do it. He just did it. The game was a bit more honest when it was dirty in a perverse way. You knew it was coming and the players just got on with it.
George: It’s not about the contact, it’s about the cheating and…
Andy: I know, I know, bro. And with you totally, it’s annoying. I mean, just stupid things like you get a throwing and it’s just inside your own heart. Where does the guy who takes the throwing end up invariably 10 yards further down the line?
Andy: When a referee is going to say, excuse me, get back by unbooking you. Or cut out the get back, just book them.
George: I’d be more radical than that, Andy. Right. Okay. I was just thinking before when you were talking about VAR. Suppose a Lincoln supporter, his second club is Everton and he actually listens to Talking to Blues.
They must listen to us banging on about VAR thinking, I hope that never comes to our division.
Andy: I’m going to tell you, there is a Lincoln fan whose second team is Everton and he listens to talking to Blues. Talk boy.
Paul: He also happens to be the Chairman of Lincoln as well.
George: That’s a chairman! No, you’re kidding.
Paul: Well, seriously, and he’s a lovely, lovely guy.
George: Well, he’s not wishing for VAR. So what I’m getting at is VAR is money. It’s a personification of money. Fine. If we’re going to have money in the game, we’ve got plenty of it. So, when the ball goes out for a throw in, you put a little mark down, the linesman’s got his little can, like the left score, and he goes there.
Five yards further from that, that’s a free kick to the other team. That, not booking him, it’s not punishment. It’s just going, you’re cheating. That’s a foul. That’s a free kick to the other team. I guarantee you that the managers would go, don’t do that.
Do not give away a free kick, especially against Everton, because they score more goals from free kicks than everybody except blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what I’m saying? They’ve just got to have a will to go, no, you’re not doing that.
That was another time. You can’t dive over somebody’s leg and get away with it because we’ve got the technology to prove that you did, therefore you’ll get a red card or whatever. Whatever way you do it that stops it, if you punish the club, the club themselves will stop the players acting like soft tarts.
Andy: Should do, yeah.
Paul: I mean, this whole discussion is really interesting because I totally agree that the game used to be more honest than it is now. And if you start to think about some of the reasons why we’ve got to where we’ve got, I think you start by looking at something that Dave Brailsford introduced into professional sports or into top level sports, which was the concept of marginal gains.
And that was whereby just little advantages that you create within a game, within a race, whatever, cumulatively end up with you winning more than you would do if you didn’t take this approach. And that was fine to begin with because it was done of a technical nature.
So improve your technique. If you’re cycling, improve the technology of the bicycles, improve your tactical appreciation, improve the science, the sports science behind how the body reacts to certain conditions and how it recovers and everything else.
And all of that is fine in terms of marginal gains. But then some really clever people decided that they could extend and almost abuse the concept of marginal gains by just pushing the boundaries against the laws of the game.
And, you know, Premier League referees, football referees, they’re quite easy to push the boundaries against. And that’s what has happened. And then you discover that if you push the boundaries, so if you take a couple of yards on a free kick or you take a couple of yards on a throw in, or if you just place the ball slightly outside the quadrant for a corner, you’re probably going to get away with it.
And because you get away with it, you then push the boundaries a little bit further. 100%. And that continues. And then eventually the Premier League wake up and think, well, we can’t allow this to happen.
So we’re going to introduce a system that’s called VAR, which is going to actually provide the visual evidence of the fact that you’ve cheated, which sounds great in theory, but then they completely screw up how they execute it.
So we’re always one step behind. At least one step behind, quite often more.
George: one of the one of the best examples ever is that Ivan Tony one where the ref draws the little thingy bob the semi circle put the ball there with his shavy foam whatever it is and the wall lines up and the shavy foam melts and Tony moves the ball they all saw it it’s on VAR they don’t do anything about it well you know that is a precise example of what you’re talking about Tony you know Ivan Tony’s kind of hailed as that was witty that was inventive wasn’t that clever oh I must try that
Paul: But there are other sports where the concept of cheating is an absolute anathema, isn’t it? You know, I can think of two very different sports, snooker, one, you know, working class game, but all professionals call fouls on themselves if they foul, and they never question a referee’s decision, or I can’t think of an incident where they question the referee.
And golf, of course, has always been considered to be a sport whereby self -regulated and people call fouls on themselves, although I think increasingly now golf referees are coming under more pressure because players are prepared to challenge decisions where in the past, you know, that was just not the done thing.
But if it’s acceptable in those sports, and in the case of golf, you’re playing for far more money than you’re actually playing in football, rugby union is another example, although the money thing doesn’t quite work there.
The only reason why it’s permitted in football is because the people who regulate the game aren’t strong enough. And the people who regulate the game aren’t strong enough because they are governed by the people who actually own the football clubs.
George: Who will decide not to dump the AI off? Yes, exactly.
Paul: Exactly. So, if you’re, you know, page 564 of reasons why we need an independent regulator
Andy: Yeah.
Paul: Yep.
Andy: Damn God.
Paul: It’s here. Yeah.
George: Sheffield United, DCL played well. See, I will say this too. Sorry, I don’t care if we go rambling around. I’ve been to Spain, it’s not my fault. DCL should not have been hooked from that match on Sunday.
He was tormenting those so -called wonderful Arsenal centre -hours. He was having a fantastic game. I’ve no idea why they pulled him. And then you pull him and you put two up front on. I kind of go, wait a minute.
Have you got that right, really? Because Beto and Chermitti just got swallowed up by really capable people. But DCL has hit form in the last four or five games. I thought he was terrific at Sheffield United.
Really, really good. Really worrying everybody all the time. His control is back and, you know, he looks terrific. Probably too late to be. He is too late to make a thingy -bob squad, isn’t he? Yeah, great.
Paul: But he provided a platform from which the team could play and that was self -evident on, you know, the Arsenal game, you take away that platform and then everything that comes behind you, you lose shape because you don’t have a target man, you don’t have a structure to your play that you had previously and, you know, it’s best that we’re going to be here next season.
George: No, I have no idea. What do you think? Have we signed him or is he? That’s what I’m saying though.
Andy: He’s not alone, is he? He’s signed, yeah.
Paul: sign. Yeah. Well, then you’ll be money. Well, we need to rate, you know, edging into like, the second half of the podcast. Yeah. And we’ve made three substitutes at half time. The work. Where’s me orange?
George: Yeah, quite. I knew you were going to say that.
Paul: I’m just being so predictable.
George: Well, I’ve just got a list of all the Spanish words, you know, there’s only about three left, Paul, am I? Go on.
Paul: there is another half an hour to get through them. So beware. I just don’t think he’s going to be with us and I think if we get the opportunities to sell him at anything like a price that sort of meets all of the financial requirements we will do so.
Andy: Well, aren’t we all about to pay for it? But, yes.
Paul: but then one would hope that we would get somewhere close to, well, maybe, no, actually probably we wouldn’t get close to what we have to pay for it, but. Yeah.
George: Didn’t we pay in excess of $20 million for it? Yeah, $26 million, wasn’t it? Nobody’s going to give us that.
Andy: Nobody in the right mind is going to give 26 million for Beto. Sorry pal, but no not be adequate you pass
Paul: don’t you? You have to cut your class. We’re gonna have to cut our class. It doesn’t matter about what the ownership situation of the club is going forward, which I’m sure we’ll get onto before we finish the podcast.
Andy: Well, let’s look at the squad, Paul, who do we know? Well, we already know that Andy Lonergan is gone. We know that Andre Gomes is going. We know that Seamus Coleman has been offered another year extension as has Ashley Young.
Andy: Jack Harrison wants to stay, but Leeds wants some ridiculous figure for him, I understand. Dele Ali is out of contract, but we’ll stay around for medical treatment and what have you.
Paul: as a player. He won’t be registered as a player, so he’s gone.
Andy: Yeah, so who else who else is definitely out of contract and will be off the wage bill once the final page pay packets of paper.
Paul: Did you, did you mention Gomes? Yeah, I mentioned Gomes.
Andy: Yeah, Andre Gomes, yeah.
Paul: Yeah.
Andy: We’ve got Mason Holgate to come back from Sheffield United.
Paul: Harrison.
Andy: Yeah, but Harrison wants to stay but it’s up to whether we can agree a price with Leeds and likely to want more than is worth in my opinion.
Paul: Right, you’re missing.
Andy: She makes it.
George: How did we get him? Was he not on loan?
Paul: I think she was unknown. I’m sorry, I should know this off the top of my head, but yes. And if people are yelling at the computer screens or the phone saying, you idiots, I’m sorry. Yes, I think he was.
George: Well, just to go back to, because it’s part of the same conversation, the Beto situation, that will be governed by what bids we get for DCL, because, you know, somebody at some point, and I presume this is Thelwell, is going to have to go, well, you can’t sell them all.
Somebody’s got to put a number nine shirt on, and if DCL is going because we need to have to sell him, then Beto is staying, and no, you can’t have him for 12 million. The DCL is going to have to sell him for 12 million.
Paul: The sales situation is slightly different, isn’t it, in the sense that he’s now entering the final year of his contract. So he either has to sign a new contract with us or we have to sign him because we can’t afford to let him, even though he didn’t cost us 1 .8 million, we can’t afford to let him stay till the end of his contract when he becomes a free agent.
So we either probably have to increase his wages this summer and offer him an extended contract or we have to bite the bullets and say how much is this guy worth with 12 months left on this contract, a somewhat dodgy injury record, and statistically the worst finisher in the Premier League.
George: No, I would only say against that Paul, back to his best.
Paul: I’m not being critical of him at all. I think he’s really stepped up and he’s done everything apart from score more goals that we’ve asked of him. I’m just saying, if you’re a buyer, you might see some value in him, but you’re going to discount that value with facts.
And the facts are that he doesn’t convert a huge number of chances relative to maybe other centre forwards in the Premier League, not that there are many centre forwards like him. And as we just said here against Arsenal, the game changed massively the moment he came off the pitch.
So he adds value way, way beyond his ability to score goals. We’re a much better side when he’s in the team, particularly away from home. Absolutely. I get all that. But if it’s not DCL, then in terms of immediately sellable assets, what have we got left?
We’ve got Onana, who I think is a given that he’s going. We’ve got Branthwaite which is probably another given that he’s going. And possibly, possibly, possibly, possibly, if you’re just looking at who might add financial value via a sale, you have to say Jordan Pickford.
Andy: That would be a shame.
Paul: which would be horrific.
Andy: Yeah, because, I mean, when you think back over the last three years of three back -to -back relegation fights, and we’ve had players who’ve stepped up to the plate, Richarlison stepped up to the plate, DCL stepped up to the plate, but the one person who stepped up to the plate, game in, game out, week in, week out, month in, month out, three seasons on the trot has been Jordan Pickford.
That was a bonus. And there are still people who would lay claim that Van Dyke went to noble Pickford and came off worst himself. But let’s not get into that. The point to share back to the matter is, of all the players who’ve given their heart and soul to the club in the last three seasons of relegation battles, the most consistent all the way through has been Pickford.
And I would be devastated if Jordan Pickford were to leave Everton this summer. But you would have to understand it. I mean, he’s England’s number one.
George: He’s won nothing, he’s going to win nothing if he stays where he is.
Andy: yeah he’s got he’s got this he’ll obviously have designs on winning silverware somewhere and at some point in his career um so you in that respect you couldn’t blame him for saying or for if someone came in and and made the right made the right offer financially the club reluctantly agreed to let him go um i would hate him to go to another premier league club if I’m totally honest um although it would be funny if he signed for Newcastle that would be hilarious
George: Well, you’re better goaller than everybody else has got.
Andy: Well, exactly. I mean, I mean, if I mean, if he went abroad, you know, you’d wish him well. I mean, you’d wish him well anyway, because he’s been a good servant for Everton Football Club. He’s never given less than his best.
He’s made a few howlers you know, but all goalies do that. And, you know, they always used to say, you’ve got to be a bit mental to be a goalie. And he’s certainly proven at times that he is completely wacko, but he’s a great goalie.
And, you know, God forbid he was to be put on the block. I would imagine there would be a queue of clubs interested in Jordan Pickford. I just hope that we’re able, you know, that we don’t get to the stage where we have to sell him or God forbid that he wanted to go.
George: But presumably the harsh, horrible, cold facts of all this are that if that happens, the skill that Everton need is someone who can engineer a kind of auction in it.
Andy: Well, that’s what I’m saying, that if if Jordan Pickford were to be put on the block or heaven forbid were to want to leave, you know, for the sake of winning some silverware somewhere, although it’s not worked with Harry Kane.
Yeah, you would imagine there would be more than one club interested in signing England’s number one. Yeah, because no matter what everybody says, no matter what nonsense is written in the media and spouted by pundits, he is, undoubtedly, Gareth Southgate’s number one goalie.
The fact that he plays for Everton is the reason why he doesn’t get the credit he deserves. You know, so that’s just that’s just my conspiracy theories that everybody hates everything. But you would imagine that there would be a number of clubs who would be interested in signing him, you know, how many let’s be honest, how many better goal is either in the Premier League, how many, how many stack up against him?
I mean, he’s, he’s come second in the Golden Gloves this year for clean sheets behind rare Arsenal. Raya, you know, Raya Arsenal finished second in the second in the league, Everton have finished 15th. You know, you would have expected Pickford to have not to have kept as many clean sheets as he had.
That’s testament to how well he’s played and how well the defence in front of him has protected him.
Paul: He’s had 13 clean sheets, which is more than one in three games.
Andy: I mean, that’s insane for a team that’s been in a relegation fight all year.
Paul: Conceded 51 goals, including the six against Chelsea, right, I think, which makes us the third or fourth lowest conceded goals in the league, which is, you know, again, a ridiculous statistic for a team that we wouldn’t wouldn’t have been in the bottom third had it been for the points penalties, but still massively outperforming.
Andy: Yeah, yeah.
George: to think, doesn’t it? How long will it be before? What you’ve just said about the defence and the goals proves what an excellent defensive coach Sean Dyches. He has to take credit for that. How long are we away from whatever need is an offensive coach?
Because he is not that.
Andy: No, no, you’re right. I mean, yeah, but that’s the thing. The question is that do they do they bring in someone to work on, you know, does he does he bring in an offensive coach to work on to him or do the club choose to replace him and hope to bring in a more offensively minded manager?
Well, that’s breaking news is that Pocettino is available.
Paul: Let’s look at this from a slightly different perspective, Andy. If I was Sean Dyche, I would say, whoa, hang on a minute. We created far more chances this year than we have done in previous years. Our problem has been our inability to put those chances into the back of the net.
So yes, my reputation is I’m a good defensive coach. Yes, my reputation is that I’m great from dead ball situations, free kicks, corners, fantastic at that. I’ve improved, this is I being Sean Dyche, I have improved our ability to create chances this year tactically, you know, whatever.
And it’s not, at the end of the day, it’s not my job to put the ball in the back of the net.
Andy: Yeah, don’t get me wrong Paul, I’m not advocating for a change in manager.
Paul: No, no, I know you’re not. I’m just saying, if I was Sean Dyche and listening to this, I would be getting on the phone to you and saying, hang on a minute. Sean, if you are listening, send me a text and I’ll give you this number.
Andy: I mean, it’s an interesting question, would he, you know, would he, I mean, he’s, he’s got a very small staff around him, aren’t he? He’s basically him and Woan and Stone, isn’t he? Unlike certain other managers who’ve got huge entourage around him, like Nuno Forest, who’s got about 10 guys working for him.
It makes you wonder whether, whether having, having built a solid defenceman, keeping it together for next season might be the big ask. But then would he, would he consider, if you like, asking or bringing in some help to help improve the conversion rate?
Because we do make the chances, like you said, it’s putting them away that we’ve, we’ve failed miserably now.
George: But we’re sitting here discussing this. He’s the manager of evidence. It must be going through his head. You know, you’re dead right, Paul. I think your analysis is spot on. He must be thinking, if we take one third of the chances we created this season, we’re in Europe next year.
So he has to be asking himself, what’s the best thing I can do to remedy that situation? But you’d probably not sell DCL and all the rest of it.
Paul: just just just thinking then Andy when you said Woan and Stone maybe Dyche’s thoughts for the summer will be Woan Stone and loan – sorry people will be looking forward to next time we’re off for three weeks okay so let’s quickly sum up the season I had to do something for the Guardian at the weekend and sorry I should have asked you this before Andy to prepare like a two -minute summary Andy from you in terms of the …
Andy: I think considering all the obstacles that the club or the team has overcome, some of the obstacles have almost homegrown, and then the obstacles from the Premier League of points deductions, etc., etc., and VAR decisions and what have you.
I think it’s been quite a remarkable effort, really, to not only survive, but in the end survive comfortably. And had we not had those points deductions, we’d have been 12 and everyone would have been going into the summer in a whole different frame of mind thinking, now if we could push on a little bit more, and as you said, convert those chances, or one third more of those chances, we could be knocking on the door of Europe next year.
And wouldn’t that be great fun? So I think the players and the manager and his staff deserve an enormous amount of credit for sticking to the task through thick and mostly thin, and coming up with what was needed, and you know, chopping it off with the Derby way.
Paul: Well said, Andy. Well said. George.
George: Oh, I don’t see why I should be told to follow that, that was spot on. Oh, I was I would only add and I will add because it’s what I felt playing some of the worst football I’ve ever seen in my life.
But it was a pragmatic season and pragmatically. I wish to rescind something I said three or four weeks ago. I thought, actually, Andy, you were right. The manager of the season was Deitch. Thank you.
It was ugly, ugly to watch. Horrible, horrible at times, especially for an Evertonian with a long memory of much, much happier times, but given the situation that we were in. And I don’t slag off the league for knocking points off us.
We cheated. We cheated fiscally. We’ve been cheating fiscally ever since Bill took charge of the club, probably. And we got what was coming to us and he got us out of it. And he he he gets a lot of credit.
And when I, you know, on my sort of phone, where you get all those things, you’re going to want to read this, you want to read this number of ones that said he’s going to get sacked are extraordinary to me.
And that’s my two minutes, Paul, just before you do yours. Are you implying, Andy, when you said Potechino that the breaking news is that Chelsea have sacked it?
Andy: No, these left by mutual consent.
George: Right. Okay. Sorry, Paul.
Andy: I got a text message, text message seven minutes ago saying he’s left Chelsea by mutual consent.
George: I hope he’s relieved. They’re a nightmare.
Andy: Well, there were a nightmare for those.
George: And if we should have won that game, if Beto had scored in the first attack, they would have folded. You would have had 90 minutes and all those children squabbling when they got that penalty. That’s who they are.
Spoiled, overpaid brats, he’s well out of there, Pochettino. Hope he gets a nice job. Brighton would need somebody.
Andy: Well, yeah, there you go. Yeah, right, Paul, your two minutes. Thank you.
No, we’ve had these two minutes, we’ve read these.
Andy: Two minutes in the Guardian, aren’t we?
George: really good. You were spot on. I thought you were right about Harrison too.
Andy: I think you were right about the Sheffield United fans as well.
Paul: Yeah, it’s it’s been just, I mean, state almost stating the obvious, it’s probably been the most extraordinary season. I can remember it as it as it never has been found. When you’re right, the football was horrible times.
We have obviously massively under under resourced on the pitch. Yet, there was a solidity to throughout most of the season, apart from that period when we didn’t win a game for 13 games. There was some solidity and there was some consistency, even if it wasn’t throughout the whole of the season.
And I’m not going to claim for one second that Dyche is now the world’s greatest manager, or indeed he offers a brand of football that you want to watch every single week because that’s quite clearly not the case.
But I think he’s had an extraordinary season, especially in the context of not being helped at all by the circumstances around him, be that driven by the Premier League, or be that driven by the lack of leadership, the lack of direction, the lack of strategy from within the club.
And I think on that basis alone, Dyche and all of the players, not all of the players perform to the highest level throughout the whole of the season. And it’s certainly unfair just to pick on Harrison but Harrison being one of the examples.
Just need their achievement in doing what they did, given the circumstances in which they had to do it, just needs complete and assert acknowledgement. And they won’t get that from the club because the club really doesn’t exist at this moment in time, or at least the upper levels of the club doesn’t exist.
But I bet every single one of them when they finished the game against Arsenal and they all went off to get on their private jets to go away on holiday, we’d sit back and maybe take a glass of champagne and have a quiet moment of satisfaction as to not the fact that we finished halfway at the league or two thirds of the way down the league, whatever the position was, and just that we beat the odds.
And we built an extraordinary bad hand. And, you know, things were layered on top of us throughout the season. The whole points penalty thing was was a disgrace in terms of governance in terms of sporting integrity, the way it was handled by the Premier League, not the fact that we were guilty, because we were guilty, just the fact that the way it was handled that giving us 10 points and then 15 points from from that penalty, you know, giving us four points back and then giving us giving us giving us another two points.
And of course, we still got another penalty to come from how they decide whether we cheated or not, according to them, with regards to the stadium interests. I won’t go down as my favourite season by interested in imagination.
But aside from when we’ve really achieved things on the pitch, and I’m gonna say this, it will go down as my proudest season as an Evertonian, and being proud of the players and being proud of the manager, not proud of the club, but proud of the players and proud of the manager.
And of course, proud of the fans. And can I just say with regards to the fans, it’s not only the people that go to the away games, it’s not only the people that go to the home games and the people that go home and away.
It’s every single Evertonian around the world has contributed in whatever way they can, be it social media, just, you know, however they can communicate their thoughts and their love for Everton Football Club, every single one, listen to us, listen to Toffee TV, listen to remember, you know, type stuff on GOT, Toffeeweb, all of the different social media channels, every single Evertonian, I think, has been wholly committed to the club and contributed to the club at least, living to fight another day.
I think we can all be proud of ourselves in that sense. Because I suspect that all of us know that we’ve put a bit of effort into at least a bit of effort, some more than others, obviously. But we’ve put a lot of effort into protecting our club from itself, from its owner, and from its directors.
Andy: Yeah. Well said, Paul. Yep.
Paul: And you know, I don’t really need to say any more than that. We face a ridiculous situation now over the summer where we don’t know. Well, I’m not going to talk in detail about it because this has already been quite a long pocket.
But, you know, we face a ridiculous situation in terms of what our ownership position is going to be. And nobody, and I mean literally nobody knows, except we know that it’s not going to be triple seven.
We’re going to be the future owners of the football club. Moshiri is not committed to us any longer. Moshiri wants out. Who does he get out to? Well, yes, there are people who want to buy the football club, but those people can’t buy the football club if all of the people who have lent the club money continue to behave in a manner in which they’re behaving.
There has to be a group of adults get together in a room and say, if we want to resolve this situation going forward, some of us are going to have to accept a little bit more pain than others. And they may argue that they shouldn’t accept any pain.
But frankly, if you invest in a football club, if you lend money to a football club, you do it in the knowledge that there is risk. None of this is risk free. And sometimes when you do something that has risk attached to it, it goes wrong.
And as a result of it going wrong, you lose money. And that’s business around the world. It’s not just football, it’s everything. And you can’t ever go into these situations and just expect everything to work out the way that you want it to, or the way that you have promised it to the people who have provided you the money for you to give to a football club.
The fact is, is that it hasn’t gone right. It hasn’t gone right for a long time. And it was very obvious that it was not going right. It was very obvious that Farhad Moshiri and the Everton directors couldn’t manage their way out of a paper bag.
So they should have thought about that before they invested, before they lent money to Everton football club. There’s no point in bitching about it now. You made the decision. The decision went wrong.
And you have to accept something like responsibility. And you have to accept the restructuring that has to happen now, which means that some people are going to lose money in order for the situation to be resolved.
Because if the situation isn’t resolved, then the club ceases to exist.
George: Follow that. Oh, Spanish eye.
Paul: I wish I had a mute button there where I could mute. No, I don’t, George. I’m joking. Sorry, that’s it. That’s it for me. That’s where we are.
Andy: yeah yeah yeah yeah unfortunately that’s that’s the harsh reality of things isn’t it
Paul: and it needs somebody in the boardroom to say that and it needs somebody say that’s to Farhad and share it and it needs somebody to say that to all the predecessors.
Andy: Hmm
Paul: And to say, you know, we’re a year away from going into brand new more, all things being, being well, and look at the asset you’ve got, look at the football club that you’ve got, you know, what we’ve just all talked about, having beaten all the odds to get to where we’ve got to, and, you know, all of the wonderful things about the club that got us to that position.
All of this is something to build on for the future, but we have to get through this period now whereby the ownership has to be determined and allow, as I say, adults to come into the room and run this magnificent football club properly.
George: Please.
Andy: Yeah, we can but hope.
George: I also think the very first thing you said at the top of the podcast, the last one of the season is wrong. I think we’ll be here next week going, ooh, what, why? And then the transfer window will open and we’ll be going, oh, no.
Andy: Oh no.
Paul: Yeah, sorry, Josh wanted to move off the planes, he isn’t left behind that way. Yeah. Oh, that’s a wrap from me.
Andy: So.
Paul: Yeah.
Andy: Yeah, yeah, just about it.
Paul: Yeah, George, there was one thing I wanted to mention. There was not everything related actually. Oh, yeah, and it’s this and I don’t know if you noticed but like a matter of hours after finishing the Premier League season.
Yeah, two football clubs jumped on planes to go and play friendly in Australia. Yeah, the schedule’s too busy to play an FA Cup replay.
George: But this is selling the brand.
Andy: Yeah. How much are they both making from that trip to us?
Paul: No idea.
George: Well, where are your priorities? I think you ought to realign them. Who gives a damn about whether Bournemouth get an extra payday from a replay against Gateshead? Come on, where’s the real cash in the markets?
We haven’t fully exploited yet. I’m a bit rancid with football, I’m quite looking forward to the cricket soon.
Paul: And that’s it. All right, should we leave it there? Yes, please, mate.
Andy: Bye and bye, mate.
Paul: And we’ll pick up the conversation at the weekend, I guess. I bet we will. Now we’re all back in front of all microphones.
George: There’s just no end to Everton Football Club at the moment, so yeah, I would definitely like to hear what you two think of what’s going on by the time we get to another week from here.
Paul: I mean, I’ve been just finished. I’ll finish on this. I obviously raise concerns about Everton’s ability to stay in business for much of the latter half of the season, second half of the season in particular.
We might not like what we have to do in the next few weeks in order to stay in business, but we’re going to stay in business, I think. And obviously that means selling players, but that’s not a solution.
We’re in a position, and I’m going to definitely finish on this sort of statement. We’re in a position whereby the patient dies without taking the medicine, but the medicine may kill the patient.
George: Oh Christ. I may need till next week to decipher that. Have a think about that.
Paul: and we can talk about it on Sunday. Thanks very much.
George: I’ll have the medicine ready by then.
Andy: Bro, we’re getting old work now.
Paul: Well, we’ve got some quizzes to look forward to. Yeah.
George: It’s a rhythm, man.
Paul: OK, gents, as always, it’s been a great pleasure. George, all joking aside, delighted that you had an amazing holiday in Spain. Everybody I know is delighted that you’re back. And we’ve had so many people saying, when’s the next talking blues?
When’s the next talking blues? And they’re not just all burner accounts of mine. Gents, thanks very much. And we will speak to everybody on Sunday. And again, as always, thanks for your great support and all the comments and love and everything else that you’ve sent and, you know, given that it is after the final game in the season, thanks for your support throughout the whole of the season.
It’s enormously appreciated. And your support helps us because we’re fans as well as everybody else. Be the self -indulgent. And it helps us get through the season, even if we don’t necessarily help you to get through the season.
Paul: Gents, thanks a lot. Take care. Bye bye.