Paul: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, depending on where in the world you are, and what time of the day you’re listening to this episode of Talking the Blues. Here we are in the middle, well, at the end of March, just before Easter, and it seems as if we’re in the close season already, so long since we played.Andy and George, how are you both?
George: Good, looking forward to Tuesday night when….
Andy: Tuesday night, George. I’d leave it while Wednesday if that were you, bro. Or is it really?
George: Are you serious? Oh, right.
Paul: No, Andy, you shouldn’t have said it. We might have got an interesting reveal from George as to what’s happening on Tuesday.
George: Maybe Tranmere’s reserves.
Paul: So George, what are you looking forward to in terms of the hastily rearranged game on Wednesday?
George: I’m looking forward to, I’ll be straight about this. I know you’re not supposed to do this as an Evertonian, but they are, when they play, the best team I’ve seen in a long time. And so if they play, we will get a complete update on where we’re at and what players we’ve got who can live at that level. And I suspect that we’ll find out what, well, I suspect I’ll find out what I know, that the defence is pretty good. O’Brien, Tarkovsky, Branthwaite, Mykolenko, pretty good. The midfield will struggle, Liverpool’s midfield is marvellous and upfront, well, you know. So I’m looking forward to this sort of reality check, really.And I don’t put it past us that we can beat them. I think the longer it goes, the more frustrated they get.
Andy, I think I said this to you before, but I watched the match against PSG and what I found utterly fascinating about Liverpool was every time he made a change and he made four, the team got weaker. His top team is his top team, but the bench is not as good as his first pick. So the longer the game can go and the more frustrated he becomes, and I don’t think he knows anywhere near as much about Derbies as Moyes does, not those Derbies anyway. Not from the way he lost his rag at the last one. Then the chance of us doing something becomes more and more realistic. And I hope he starts here, Ireogbunan, and I hope we don’t see Doucoure until an hour’s gone when he can come on and annoy everybody. And it’s a shame and Ndiaye’s not there, a real shame.
Andy:
I definitely agree with that sentiment about the role of Doucoure. I think Doucoure could be a real handful if he comes on, you know, if he’s on the bench and he comes on, say, on the 60, 65 minute mark and just runs around, not well, I was going to say, like an endless chicken, but like an endless chicken with purpose at getting at Liverpool, getting under the skin and pressuring them.
Because I think I think you’re right, though, they’re not. I don’t think I don’t think they’re as good as they think they are.And I think that’s the truth in the match, two games against PSG and particularly the Carabao Cup final when they literally didn’t turn up. I mean, one shot on target in 95 minutes.
It’s, you know, for a team that’s got such a commanding lead at the top of the Premier League strikes me as being rather poor, and it just makes you wonder, you know, that they have been the best team throughout the season.
But it does make you wonder about the strength of the Premier League when a side that’s got a lead at the top of the table as big as they’ve got fails to get, you know, only records one shot on goal in a cup final. And I think you’re right, their bench isn’t as strong as they think it is. And you’re right, I think I think Moyes, if he gets his game plan right, we can go out and A, frustrate him and B, hopefully get right under the skin and give him a and put their back line under pressure.
I don’t think their back floor is as good as they think it is. And it will be interesting to see what the reaction from the cultists towards Alexander Arnold now that he’s and indeed Van Dyke now that they both indicated that they’re going at the end of the season. Liverpool fans have got something of a history of turning on players, you know, shirt burning, Gerrard, Suarez, Torres to name just three. And now they’re darling Alexander Arnold and Van Dyke have said that they’re off at the end of the season. I just wonder, is this the beginning of the breakup of this allegedly best side in the country?
George: That was a good kick-off
Paul: I’ve got absolutely nothing to say about Liverpool, because I never ever watched them. The only time I ever watched them is when they happened to be playing us genuinely. And it’s been that way for many, many years. I can’t remember the last time I watched a Liverpool game that didn’t involve Everton, just got no interest in them whatsoever.And I accept the times they may have played fantastic football, and they may have been involved in some amazing games.
I accept all of that, but call me a bit of blue if you wish, but I just have no interest in them at all. It’s not good for my blood pressure.
George: That’s exactly how I feel about Lincoln Town.
Paul: Well, given that the chairman of Lincoln City is a blue and listens to this podcast every week, he’s going to be a little upset, George, sorry, both.
Andy: Lincoln City.
George: Right.
Paul: Unless, unless there is a, you know, a lesser known Lincoln town that George you’re aware of and why not, which is, you know,
George:Well, of course, Paul. Of course there is.The play in the PPA Mache League is another bit of waffle for you. I saw on the gossip, you remember, I always tell you not to read social media, Andy, you always tell me not to go on the gossip sites.
The gossip site that clicked on two today, one was Everton fans are outraged after the second trial match at the prices of food at Goodies, at Bramley-Moore. Yeah. And the other one was a rumour that we’re going to sell James Garner. I thought I’d chuck that one in and see what you thought about that.
Andy: We’ll not see now.
George: Well, you wouldn’t, Andy, because, you know, it’s all clickbait and I’m an idiot for looking at it, but that’s what that’s what it said.
Andy: I’d be a bit surprised because I think Garner gives us some strength in the midfield alongside Ghana Gueye and it reopened him. I think he does actually give us some presence there.I agree.
I would be a bit surprised if that were true, especially as the club have already indicated that the strong likelihood is that the scoring will be leaving in the summer, although I’m led to believe by certain parties that they are discussing a one-year extension. I don’t know whether I’m… I think we’ve had good service out of the court.
I think his effectiveness has waned over the last 12 months and I think what we’ve said on it and we’ve already said in this recording that he’s probably better coming off the bench and buzzing around people and getting under the skin rather than doing it right from the off.So selling James Garner, I would take that with a massive pinch of salt.
George: I agree. Also, just because it made me think about him, and I actually thought to myself, that would be a bit mean.This boy is actually getting better. I don’t think his pace is ever going to change, but his willingness to be a tackler in midfield has improved. He’s competent, isn’t he? Yes, he is. He wasn’t always, and he has become that. I think that’s hugely to his credit, and very greatly to our needs.
Now, if the midfield, I’ve said this before, was him, Idrissa, Alcaraz and Tim, that would be a force.
Andy: It’s certainly been probably the strongest midfield we’ve had for a good few years, yeah.
George: I would’ve thought so.
Andy: Yeah.
George: I’m hoping that’s what he’ll do on, on whatever night we play.
Paul: Can I, okay, let’s pick up on a couple of things. I thought Doucoure had already indicated that he wasn’t going to stay. But then I may be, I may be wrong on that. Because that’s not tend to tend not to listen to those types of things but for what it’s worth, you know, I think I think he should go with the blessing of every Evertonian and joy.Yes, the latter part of his career or elsewhere. That’s based on the principle that we obviously either replace him from within or we bring in somebody from the outside. But, you know, his effectiveness has reduced.
George: We hang on to Alcaraz is what we do. Where’s he come from? He’s on loan, isn’t he? Thank you.
Paul: Yes, but I think there’s a very good chance that we are going to sign him. I can’t recall the details, but I think he’s about to play in more than 50% of the games that he’s been available for, which triggers, I could be entirely wrong with this, but I think it triggers our ability to purchase him.Oh, well. So at a pretty good price as well, I think it’s around between 12 and 15 million euros. So that would be in today’s market. Obviously, very, very good business.
Andy: And that’s almost a steal, isn’t it? Like you say, in today’s market, when you’re talking, you know, players going for, well, six or seven times, though.
Paul: Yeah. He’s on loan, George from Flamenco, a Brazilian club.
Andy: I’m sorry, Brazil, yeah.
George: All right. Well, I really, I really, really hope he stays.He’s a bit special. Him and Ndayi could, and go on, I’ll check this one as well. Him and Ndaiye and Chermittii, that could be a force. Proper, proper force. Players, proper players, players who can actually play a bit. I don’t mean that in a mean way, but we have got players who can’t play, actually, who do their best, but they’re not a threat to anybody anymore.
Paul: and
George: Doucoure, Lindstrom, Harrison, good, good people, good players, but not actually Premier League worry, you know, Liverpool won’t go, oh my God, I’ve got to mark Jack Harrison. And I hope he stuffs it right up my throat.Well, I do. No, I know what you mean, bro. There’s nothing more than being proved wrong because I talk such bollocks half the time.
Andy: But no, you’re right. Every time, you know, every time we say things like that, you know, the Harrison or Lynch tomorrow, whether, you know, doesn’t worry people, you know, secretly, you’re hoping that they go out and get a hat trick turned around, show their ass with TTV, suck that on, you know, tattooed on it, something like that.I don’t know, but
George: I’d like a T-shirt with that on, Andy.
Andy: You know what I’m saying, you know, you, you don’t like to be cruel, because you just hope that, you know, that they’ll still rise to the challenge if you like.Yes. If you’re listening, go out and give, give Alexander Arnold a bad time or whoever you’re facing, Robertson, because he’ll just kick you in the, he’ll just kick you in the Kemlyn Road and get him booked.
George: And what about the, how was the second trial event at BMD received?
Paul: Yeah. Just before we get to that, George, just the final point on Alcoraz. I agree with everything that you both said. I get the feeling that this is the sort of typical Moyes type signing from the point of view.
Here’s a player who’s played for four different teams in the last three years, and he’s not been able to settle despite all of his obvious talents. There are many people out there that know much more about football than me who would be able to argue this case more strongly than I can.But I just get the feeling that he’s the type of player that Moyes can sort of wrap an arm around and make him feel at home where perhaps he’s not felt at home anywhere else. I hope you’re right.
He showed signs when he was at Southampton, didn’t he? That he could be a player, and he’s obviously started to show signs with us. Maybe he is just one of those players that… And if you think about it, going back through Moyes’ history, particularly at Everton, he’s always been able to find those players, hasn’t he? And more often than not, those players, probably the best parts of their career, have been with David Moyes.
George: Yeah, I think it’d be now.
Paul: Yeah, Piennar, and particularly, yeah, absolutely.
Andy: Yeah.
Paul: So maybe just the stars are aligning for him, and if we could get him for that 12-15 million euros, whatever the figure is, that’d be a spectacular bit of business.
Andy: Mm.
Paul: So fingers crossed. And with regards to the new stadium, gosh, this is such a long subject, I suppose. With regards to the second test event, I think, first of all, I have to be recognised that it is a test event. So things that can go wrong, might go wrong.
The feedback that I’ve got from everybody that I know that went, is that the experience once you get into the stadium is fantastic. Everybody seems to be very, very happy with the facilities in the fan plaza, facilities within the ground, albeit expense, talk about the expense in a second. And obviously, the view from whatever it is in the ground that they happen to be sitting, there hasn’t been a single negative comment from anybody with regards to that. And even though the games themselves haven’t been conducive to generating an atmosphere, when Everton scored, people I know that went to the game said that the noise was incredible.
So everything from that point of view, points towards a fantastic experience inside the ground, which is obviously one of the key considerations that Dan Meis gave when he first started putting the designers of the stadium together. So I suspect on that count, we are as good as we ever thought we might be on that. With regards, I have heard some comments with regards to the pricing.
And to a degree, the pricing, and I’m not just standing up for the club here, because I think the club should have more influence than we probably do have. The club outsourced all of the catering to one company, a company called Aramak, who are big in the event world for catering. And it depends on what reviews you read, that the reviews range from being exceptional to not being very good depending upon what the event is and when the timing of it was. I know my own experience from the first game was that what was on offer, and it was only very limited in the first game, what was on offer was at a much higher standard than anything that Goodison Park has been able to produce over the years, and a much higher standard than what most Premier League grounds that I visited have been able to offer.
But I think the pricing point is a concern, especially when people are paying much more for their tickets.But as I say, that’s sort of outside of evidence control, although you might argue that it should be within the control. But Aramac and the company have paid a fixed fee to provide the catering, and they’re obviously going to try and generate as much revenue as they can from that.
George:Right.
Paul: Um.
George: And what about the buzz about getting to and from the ground? With 25000 in there.
Paul: I think the report card would read that certain elements of it worked better at the second test event than it did at the first test event, and yet other elements of it still need an awful lot of work on.
It’s clear that the existing infrastructure and,
George:What is the transport infrastructure that’s available?
Paul: Well, there’s Sandhills, the railway station, which is about 17, 18 minutes walk away. There’s very limited bus connectivity, and that’s partly due to the fact that there are very few major road routes in and around that area. Obviously, there’s no tram.
Taxis have an issue because road congestion is a real or was a real issue at the second test event. But then on the flip side, I’ll talk about pedestrians in a few minutes. On the flip side, I asked people if they wanted to email me to tell me about their experiences and I ended up with about, I’m not sure exactly how many, but about 50 or 60 emails, which is quite a significant number, I suppose.
And one thing that struck me was that everybody that came by Bootle, so they used Bootle town Centre as the point that they drove to, say, for example, and parked, and then used the bus service that was provided from Bootle down to Bramley-Moore. Without exception, everybody said that that worked really well, both getting to the ground and getting away from the ground afterwards, getting back to their cars.
And so that was very encouraging to read, whether that’s a reflection of the fact that it was only a 25,000 crowd and obviously many more people will try and use the service when it’s a full capacity crowd or not. I don’t know, but it has to be said that that worked, which is great to hear.
The other issue, of course, was with people walking, there’s an issue with the bridge that connects sort of the north side of the docks with the city centre. And there was a sort of a traffic flow management, traffic management flow system, i.e. people with boards saying stop and go, because only limited numbers of people are allowed to cross the bridge at any one time. Partly because of weight restrictions, but I also think it might be to do with the residents of people walking in the same way that armies, if they’re going over a suspension bridge, have to break step.
But it did cause, whether it was a significant queuing or not, I’m not sure because I wasn’t there, but it caused queuing that people wouldn’t necessarily have been aware of beforehand.
Andy: There were a lot of photographs on various forums that made it look like a real bottleneck.
Paul: Yeah.
Andy: And some considerable hassle for people particularly you know anyone wanting to go over that bridge if they were in a rush then forget it you were going to have to wait like you say to look till the stop go signs weren’t in their favour. I mean what I read in the comments on Grandoldteam was that it was a real, real problem.
Paul:
But you could have turned left up one of the side roads before the bridge and then made an immediate right and sorry, forgive me, I forgot the name of the road, the road that runs parallel to the dock road. So you could have, you can actually bypass the bridge completely if you wanted to do so.
And I suppose this is part of the process of people learning actually what is the best way to get back into town because it’s clear that you know, with a full capacity crowd, a very large number of fans are going to have to walk or wait a significant amount of time and Sandhills spoke to, I spoke personally to Steve Rotheram after the event because I’d spoken to him beforehand and he and I and many others have had various conversations over the last few weeks.
He claims and I don’t have the data to prove or disprove that 12,000 fans went through Sandhills before and after the game in total.
George: You sound as though you don’t believe that.
Paul: I’m struggling a little bit with it a little bit, George, because the maths don’t quite add up when you look at the number of trains that went through the station and the capacity of the trains and whether those trains were empty when they arrived at the station or not, and left full. The 12,000 figures seems a bit high to me.
But the flip side of it was that the experience of people waiting in the holding area, apparently it was better, and somebody at the club told me that within 45 minutes of the end of the game, basically the holding area was clear. Right. And that they managed the queuing management system and the walk up to Sandhills was much better because the road closures were more strictly enforced. So from a safety point of view, it was a better experience. Having said that, everybody, I think, has to acknowledge that Sandhills is and is going to be for quite a long time.
Totally inadequate for as the main point of public transport, both out of the city or back into the city.
And I think perhaps we’ve got to start thinking, and this is not something I’ve discussed with the club, but got to start thinking about maybe the messaging and maybe the messaging is that if you’re young, if you’re fit, if you’re able bodied, if you’re able to walk back into Liverpool, or if you’re able to walk out to a point where you can pick up your car, whether it’s car parking, etc.
Then the advice would be to do that and to whatever the capacity of Sandhills is, in a sense, prioritise those that need to use the service.So the elderly, the infirm people with with young children, for example, and maybe that needs to be, you know, stress, I’ve not talked to the club about this and I know the club will listen to this.
I don’t want them to get a nasty shock in terms of, oh, you know, why doesn’t he ever mention this before? It’s just just an idea that I’ve had it pretty much the last couple of days. Maybe that’s what we need to think about getting the people that absolutely need to use the service, giving them priority in terms of using Sandhills in and out of Liverpool and the able bodied people use alternatives, which may be buses out to Bootle, or it may be walking into the city centre.
None of that, well, all of that is far from ideal. And there is, you know, a lot of concern about why it’s inadequate and why it is only becoming an issue that’s apparent to many people now. There’s no doubt at all that the work hasn’t been done. I’m not necessarily saying the club, I’m saying the work hasn’t been done by the local authorities to put plans in place and to put the facilities and infrastructure in place. And then you have to sort of start looking at, well, why is that the case?
George:Mm-hmm.
Paul: It hasn’t come as any surprise that there’s going to be 53,000 people coming in and out of the stadium. That’s been known for the last seven, possibly even eight years.So what’s different about it? Steve Rotheram has both publicly and privately said that it was difficult for the city to plan for the stadium because up until very recently, there was still some uncertainty as to whether the stadium was going to be completed or not. I don’t accept that. No, I don’t think I don’t think it does at all.
Andy: The moment they started dredging sand out the middle of the Irish Sea to fill the docking, it was painfully obvious it was going to happen. The only doubt has been about how it was going to be funded.
Paul: Well, that’s where the doubt comes in. And, you know, let’s be totally frank. There were, and, you know, we talked about it on this podcast I’ve written about, sort of ad nauseam.
There were times, particularly in the last 18 months of the stadium build, where it wasn’t certain that Everton would be able to pay all of its bills at the time when it needed to do so. That’s a statement of fact.And it will be demonstrated when the accounts come out and the accounts should be out before the 31st.
So on Monday of next week, that is a statement of fact, okay? But that’s not an excuse for the local authority for the combined authority not to have done the work that they might’ve been able to do beforehand. Absolutely not.
When you put that point, I’m trying to be as fair as possible here. I’m not presenting the club’s case, not presenting Steve’s case. I’m just trying to give a balanced view of things. When you talk to Steve Rotheram, or you talk to Liam Robinson, who’s the leader of the Liverpool City Council, or you talk to people in the treasury, for example, in central government and say, why hasn’t the infrastructure requirements been addressed?
Everybody points to the fact that the way that things work in the UK is you have to prove that the demand is there before you get the investment. Not build and people will come. Get the people there and then we’ll build afterwards.
And that may be one of the reasons why the UK, and I’m not making a political point, but maybe one of the reasons why the UK’s economy is in such a poor state and why there are large areas of the country, particularly urban areas of the country, where a lack of investment leads to all of the social issues and all of the economic issues that are so prevalent across the north of Liverpool.
But that is the position that we’re in. And what needs to be done and what is being done is that there is a lot of lobbying both at local level, but certainly at national level to change this and to say, in the same way that Andy Burnham said about Manchester and the old traffic or new traffic development, that we need to have a mix of public money and private money. The private money has already been provided by Everton.
We spent £800 million on that stadium and possibly a bit more than that. So we could argue that we’ve done our bit in this. There now needs to be public money put in. And why should there be public money put in? Well, if the stadium is gonna fuel economic growth and regeneration, which was the idea when the plan was first produced in 2018, then it’s the government’s role via the devolved local authorities to provide the funding for them to invest in the roads, rail structure and whatever other public transport options are available to them.
And that hasn’t been done. It wasn’t done under the Conservative government and it hasn’t been done so far under the Labour government, although I know that the Labour government are looking at it much more favourably than the previous government did. And if that sounds like a politician’s answer, I apologise because it wasn’t intended to be. But that is the reality of the situation.
George: And is the $54,000 question 64,000 sorry, is this going to be sorted by August, not going to be sorted.
Paul: by August. No!
George: No. So as Evertonians, we should prepare ourselves for some pretty negative press once the season starts, just as regards human beings getting to and from our new ground.
Paul: I don’t know how much of an issue we will be in the press because there’s absolutely no appetite for the local media to report it. You know, if you look at the reporting from the Liverpool Echo
George: I never look at the report from the…
Paul: But nevertheless, you know, it’s an important voice for what’s happening on Merseyside. Nothing is said about these issues. If you look at Radio Merseyside, again, very little is said about these issues.
Andy: Why Paul? Why is the Echo? Why is Radio Merseyside so apparently oblivious to it? I’ll stop short of saying scared of running with the story, but they surely cannot turn a blind eye to the fact that in a couple of months time 53,000 people are going to descend on Bramley-Moore Dock and either have problems getting there or potentially problems getting there and potentially problems getting away.They’ll have a blast while they’re there, but getting there and getting away from the place could be a significant issue.
So why are the two biggest or two of the biggest media outlets in the city turning a blind eye to it? That doesn’t make sense. You would think they would want to champion something or throw their weight behind a course.
Paul: I think the easiest answer to that, Andy, is, and I suspect that both of them might be listening to this at some point, is to try and get Liam Thorpe, who’s the political editor of Liverpool Echo, on the podcast to explain his position, and to try and get perhaps somebody like Giulia Bould on the podcast from BBC Radio Merseyside to explain what their editorial stance is, rather than me trying to answer for them.
George: Quite. That’s absolutely right.Yeah. But surely, I mean, you know, I mean, you’re both much closer to the ground than I am, but surely they’re waiting to see what happens. But if something happens that’s hideously newsworthy, they’re going to jump all over it, aren’t they?
Paul: Obviously, if something hideous happened, they would. But if it’s just an inconvenience for fans in the sense that they have to wait more than an hour to get a train, or the vast majority of people have to walk half an hour or more, then I don’t think that will be a major news item.It will be a major inconvenience to evident fans.
Andy: Go on. I was going to say it might become a major issue when, I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, Internationals are now diaried for Bramley-Moore Dock at some point, and it’s been named as a venue for the Euros.
Paul: Yes, and there’s a strong indication that depending upon who qualifies, you know, it might even be a semi final venue for the Euros. So you’re absolutely right.You know, it needs to be an awful lot better by then than it is now.
Andy: Because otherwise, you know, it really will hit the fan that, you know, if major international events, you know, I know Bramley-Moore has been built forever in Football Club, but if Bramley-Moore has won a rugby league international, you know, that’ll sell out. Don’t forget, this is the heartland of rugby league in the northwest.You know, and if you’ve got the Aussies or the New Zealanders coming over to play England or, you know, it’s going to be a sellout.
And so you can’t have, and I’m not saying that an international event like Rugby League or the Euros takes precedence over domestic football operated by Everton Football Club, but if the media aren’t willing to take up the cudgels now for the bread and butter for Bramley-Moore, it’s going to be a bit hypocritical if they suddenly pick up the cudgels when a rugby league crowd gets inconvenienced or a Euros crowd gets inconvenienced or worse still, if the possibility of being a semi-final venue was to be reconsidered because of a lack of infrastructure suitable for a major crowd for such a big event.
Paul: Yeah, I totally agree with that. I mean, the rugby league game against Australia, so it’s the rugby league ashes, is the second game of a three game series.So potentially it’s going to be the game that determines which of both sides win the ashes. And I think I’m not a rugby league fan per se, but I think it’s the first time in 22 years the Australian team has visited the UK. So, you know, it is going to be a big event and it’s going to be a global event.
Andy: Yeah, will it ever?
Paul: But that’s where we are. The question is first what do we think can be done and then secondly how quickly can it be done and how do we get it done as quickly as possible.
George: Can I just ask a question? Because there’s something I’m not understanding here.What do you expect and would like the Echo to do right now? In what way do you feel that they’re not supporting? What do you want them to do?
Paul: I think there has to be a public debate as to why the infrastructure investment that should have occurred hasn’t occurred to date and what the plans are to accelerate that public investment in infrastructure now that the stadium is built and now that the certainty that the stadium will hold Premier League football, European football and international sports events. Plus, of course, it’s hoped that we’re going to host a number of concerts and stuff as well as other European nights.
George: I’m sorry, Paul:, just just just so I’m just so I’m clear. Yeah. Why do you think that without slagging someone off or speculating the Echo was sitting on their hands and not joining in this?
Paul: Don’t know, I said, I think that’s for somebody like Liam Thorpe to come on and answer the question. Right.
George: Okay.
Paul: I could give half a dozen reasons, but they’re not based on any particular knowledge. It would just be essentially a semi-educated guess as to why they haven’t. It would be better to hear from them and question them, to be honest. Of course, yeah.
So, what needs to happen next?Well, if you look at the model that’s being used around the country. So, elected mayors like Steve Rotheram have an important role in regeneration and economic development within the various areas around the country that they’ve got.
And regardless of whether you like politics or not, if you look at what Sadiq Khan has done in London, and people say, oh, well, London’s a different case. It is, but he’s used the legal mechanisms that are available to metro mayors to great effect. And they’re effectively to create development corporations in specific areas. So, if you think about it, the London Stadium, where West Ham play, the old Olympic Park, that is what’s called an MDC. And that’s been, is now used by large numbers of people and is a successful development moving on from the Olympics.
What other areas are there? The Oxford Street, for example, is going to be pedestrianized. And that was, you think, well, what’s that got to do with like a football stadium or anything? Well, it’s not got anything to do with it, other than the fact that the mechanism that they’re using to pedestrianize and to get the planning permission and where necessary to buy the land that they need to buy in order to do it is done through an MDC.
And what the MDC does is, it gives the mayor and an independent board, effectively a board of directors, much more control than they would have if they had to go to the local authority and ask for planning permission. So, it takes away some of the authority of the local authorities, which is why some local authorities don’t like these.
And some people claim they’re not accountable because they’re not, it’s not elected people who are making decisions. But the evidence is so far around the country where this happens, and this is what’s happened in Manchester, in Stockport, it’s going to happen in Bury and Oldham, and the new Trafford development will be some form of development corporation.
This is all evidence of it working, and all evidence of it creating an environment in which public money and private money go in together and regenerate an area. And at the end of the day, that’s what everybody in Liverpool and everybody with an interest in the city of Liverpool should be looking at and saying, yes, the stadium is important, and yes, the experience of football fans or event attendees going to Bramley-Moore should be as good as it possibly can be.
But ultimately, what all of this is about is the regeneration of an area that is one of the poorest areas, not only in the UK, but one of the poorest areas in the whole of Europe. And it is only through schemes like this, that you get the regeneration that gives the chance of people who are living in very deprived situations, of improving their lives.
Paul: And for the life of me, I can’t understand why any politician would not want that to happen and would not want to do it. Yeah, or would not want to do everything within their powers and within the budgets that are available to them to make it happen.
And I think they’re the questions that need to be asked of the local authority, to the city council, the combined authority, which is Steve Rotheram, and ultimately, the central government, the Labour government, would keep talking about growth being the primary objective of this government. Well, here’s an opportunity to significantly improve the growth prospects of the city of Liverpool, in the same way that Andy Burnham is claiming what will happen at Old Trafford, or at Trafford, will improve the growth prospects of the city of Manchester.
To me, it is as simple as that. And once you have those plans, so once you have the commitment. of funding. That’s when everything else happens. And that’s when the infrastructure, well, not suddenly, but that’s when the infrastructure appears. And as a result of that, Everton and everybody who attends Bramley-Moore would benefit from that. But it’s not going to happen overnight. That’s the disappointing thing.
Andy: No, but as you’ve said, Paul:, I’ve always been thinking about when the spade first went in the ground at Bramley-Moore and more many of these problems would have called and would probably would have been dealt with long before now.
Paul: Yeah, I think I think we’ve got to acknowledge that the club as it was just wasn’t capable of.
Andy: No, I’m not going through those processes. I’m not having a pop at the club.
Paul: No, no, I understand that.
Andy: You know, maybe, you know, maybe the club could have pushed, you know, the local authorities, the mayor and what have you, a little bit harder. But the fact is that, you know, from the moment that planning permission was first granted for Bramley-Moore, and Everton started to drain the dock and get on with it, you know, setting aside all the ownership issues down throughout the period of construction under the various alleged potential bias before the free kids finally completed the deal.
You know, the stadium was being built, however it was funded, it was being built. And the work never actually stopped at any point, it was always ongoing.So nobody can hide behind the fact that if anyone was trying to hide behind, well, we didn’t know it was going to be completed. It’s a nonsensical argument because, you know, from the moment the planning permission was agreed, people should have been saying, right, what is this joint going to need other than the plot of land that they’re building on?
You know, surely somebody within, not just within the club, but you know, the local council of authorities and what you should have been thinking 50,000 people descending on a dock, they’re coming at it from three sides, north, south and west. They’re not coming at it from the east because it’s a frigging river. So
How are we going to get them in? How are we going to accommodate them, parking, et cetera? And how the hell are we going to disperse them afterwards in such a way as not to cause ridiculous amounts of discomfort, if you like, for anybody else living in the area? Yeah. You know, those discussions should have taken place literally five minutes after they put the rubber stamp on the planning permission approved.
It should have been the next thing on the agenda. What the hell, what infrastructure do we need for this project? And not what infrastructure does the club need? What infrastructure does the city need? So it becomes the city’s problem, not so much the football club. The football club, if you like, has created a problem by saying, well, we’re going to be 50,000 people in here.
Paul: I would argue that rather than it being a problem, it’s an opportunity.
Andy: That’s what I meant Paul:. We’re going to bring 50,000 people in here every once a fortnight or possibly more. We need transport. We need transport links. We need food and beverage. We’re going to need better pavements, better lighting for nights, blah, blah, blah, blah.The whole thing should have started the moment that approved stamp hit the planning permission paperwork and it’s just, I find it incomprehensible that we’ve got to the stadium built, you know, the blue ribbon’s been cut and people are going in and oh, hang on a minute, we can’t get there.
We can’t get away from it. And then to start hiding, oh, well, we didn’t know what was, what it was going to happen. Of course they knew it was going to happen. The only issue was it was paying for it.
Paul: I think, as we discussed in the last podcast, Andy, you know, the local authority, the combined authority, sorry, issued a growth plan for the city. There was, apart from a one line reference, there was no reference to what had gone, Bramley Moore, there was a small reference to the central docks development within Liverpool waters, but there was nothing beyond that.Yeah, you know, the governments are funding the building of a brand new railway station within the Baltic Triangle area.
George: Where’s that?
Paul: So, if you looked at the river, say, from the top of Lord Street, if you know where it doesn’t really exist so much these days because of Liverpool One. If you turn left and you went down past Albert Dock, and you went past Wapping Dock and then on the left hand side is basically what’s known as the Baltic Triangle. And that’s now a quite sort of hip and trendy place with lots of bars, lots of restaurants, lots of places for people to go to. And, you know, is becoming quite a successful area.
The government is funding a brand new station there at the cost of I think 93 or 97 million pounds, I can’t remember which, I think it’s 97 actually. And that’s going full steam ahead.So, the funding is there if the case is made and the business plan is made to put these things in place.
You, Andy, quite correctly identify why the plans aren’t in place now for Bramley-Moore. And if you think about it and you contrast and if anybody from the government is listening to this, then there’s Andy Burnham asking for public money for the type of investment that we’re asking for in terms of infrastructure for a brand new stadium in Manchester for Manchester United that’s not funded.
Doesn’t have planning permission. And even though they claim it will be up and running in five years, it is unlikely to be up and running within a decade.
You know, if we’re still doing Talking the Blues in a decade and Manchester United have opened their new stadium, then they’ll have done a very good job in Manchester.
Yet, they’re already asking for public money for government money to support.
Andy: Roach.
Paul: We are at least a decade ahead of where, well, no, we are a decade ahead, not at least. We are a decade ahead of where Manchester will be if the new Old Trafford Stadium is actually built.
So if the Government is thinking about where they need to put resources, and if you listen to what the chancellor is saying, resources are very tight, if they’re looking to make the most effective use of whatever resources are available.
The case that Everton presents, the case that Bramley-Moore presents, the case that the Northern Docks present is probably a decade ahead of the case that Manchester are presenting.
George: also gives them a chance to try it out, doesn’t it?
Paul: Yeah, but that message that’s a message that local politicians have to take back to central governments have to take back to the Treasury have to take back to, you know, all the various departments are going to have a say in this.
And, and I think that’s what, you know, that’s what we’ve got to focus on now is getting that message into central governments and getting a coherent message from all of the interested parties.
And of course the other interested parties are the people who already own the land in and around Bramley more getting them all on site so that they all want the same thing at the same time, because that’s not strictly the case at this moment in time. Right.
George: And beat the redshite on Wednesday. Yeah. And then they asked.
Paul: Yeah, absolutely. The perfect way to finish the podcast.
George: Isn’t it. See you on Wednesday night.
Paul: I don’t know what you’re doing on Tuesday night, George, but we’ll see you on Wednesday. Okay, man. All right, should we leave it there?
George: Washington town.
Paul: Yeah, you’re going to go watch Lincoln Town, yeah, and wait for a phone call from the Lincoln City chairman.
George: I don’t know.
Paul: Well, I’ll give it to you.
George: Referring to the new Prime Minister of Canada, who’s also a blue nose.
Andy: Yeah.
George: Come on.
Andy: Mark down here.
Paul: uh yeah well yeah okay we’re not going to talk about Canada there we go. Right let’s reconvene after we’ve beaten Liverpool (George: yeah man seems fair to us) so we’ll be speaking on thursday morning
George: Yeah, yeah, first thing.
Paul:
All right guys, take care. Thank you everybody for listening and thank you for your patience in waiting for us to produce the next Talking to Blues podcast. And yeah, we’ll see you on Thursday.
George: All the best is all the best guys.