Talking the Blues Podcast Sunday 31st March 2024

Paul: Good morning. Good afternoon or good evening depending upon where in the world you are and what time of the day  you’re listening to this episode. An Easter Sunday episode of Talking the Blues and before we get into the game, we wish everybody a very happy Easter and good fortune ahead. Where do we start? 

George: I know where we stop, God 

Because we all know what we’re going to talk about. But the bit I haven’t understood on which, you know, what are you talking about, about accounts? Fill me in, please, on what’s going, whose accounts, Everton’s accounts? 

Paul: Yeah, so Everton year end, financial year, end is the 30th of June each year. And under UK company law, you have to present your accounts as a private limited company within nine months of that year end. 

So today is the 31st of March. And to be compliant with the law. We have to present our accounts before midnight on the 31st March, if we don’t do so we incur the enormous fine of £150.

George: Brilliant okay, but you obviously don’t think we’re going to?

Paul:  Well, I am assured by the club that the accounts will appear on the official website before the end of end -of -play today.

George: All right. Are you expecting them to say what, Paul? 

Paul: Well, bear in mind that most people will probably listen to this when the accounts are already out. 

George: All Right. Fair enough. You could look like a clever dick though, couldn’t you? 

Paul: Well I’m not sure I really want to do that. There’s enough people after me at the moment. I think we’re going to show quite a significant loss. I think that loss will be somewhere between 35 and 45 million pounds which will bring into question whether we meet our PSR profitability sustainability requirements yet again. But without seeing the accounts I don’t really want to comment on that. 

George: They’re gonna show the extent that I’ve talked about for a long time, the amount of debt that Everton Football Club is now in.

Paul:  I think that’s gonna be the two big takeaways from the accounts. One, what the loss is because that is what everybody sort of focuses on, but actually far more importantly is (two) our cash flow, i.e. how much money has come in and how much money has gone out. Now, in normal circumstances, if we weren’t building a stadium, probably we wouldn’t be spending, we’d probably spend about the same amount of cash as we brought in. 

So in simple terms, just like, you know, whatever your salary is, you’re spending whatever salary is each month. And so, yeah, the bank balance starts quite big at the beginning of the month and ends up at the end of month, fairly low, and then gets replenished at the beginning of the next month. 

But Everton, of course, are trying to, well, not trying to, Everton are building a stadium at the same time that requires payment. So in cash terms, we actually need an awful lot more cash each month than we are receiving. 

And we receive cash from three different areas, matchday, broadcast revenues, and sponsorship revenues or commercial revenues. And they don’t always come in at the same time and they didn’t know it was coming in the same amounts, but there’s the three main areas of where we receive our revenue from. 

But, some of those three figures currently are less than the amount that we’re spending. Therefore, each month, just like you would have to do with your wages, if your costs are higher than your wages, and you don’t have savings, you have to increase your overdraft. 

And that’s, that is what everything they’ve been doing for an awful long time. That figure will be a very important figure when it’s actually published. But I don’t have any knowledge of what’s in those accounts. 

And I think for the first time in a long time, the accounts actually, what normally happens a day or two, maybe a day before the accounts are published, is that journalists will receive an embargoed copy of the accounts. 

And that embargo is normally strictly observed. The embargo means that they have the accounts, but they don’t publish them until whatever the appropriate time or the agreed time is. It just allows journalists to study them and to write their copies so that if the embargo time is 5pm at 5 pm all of the various newspapers and other places BBC etc can all publish whatever they want to publish, but they all published at the same time. 

This year I believe that’s not the case and that the first time anybody including the shareholders will see the accounts is when the account appears on the website and it could be any time between now depending upon what time now is, depending upon where you are, and midnight UK time. 

George: All right. 

OK, OK. Cheers, Paul, because they didn’t quite understand the joke you were making. I mean, I love the jokes, but I didn´t altogether understand it. 

Paul: Right. It just so happens, obviously, that today is Easter Sunday and it just coincides with the 31st of March. So I just thought I would make the joke (on Twitter) that the finance director went to the safe to pick the accounts out, roll the stone away and found that accounts had gone missing. 

Andy: Heresy. 

Paul:  Well, yeah, I mean, can extend the joke beyond that and to say that Josh Wanda sold everybody that he’s resurrected the account, and that they will be found later today. But I wouldn’t possibly say that, of course, because I don’t want to infer anything of a personal nature. 

 I mean, I do mean that genuinely. . 

Andy: There are 20 clubs in the Premiership Hall, when they publish their accounts, and they’re all going to publish them, presumably. 

Paul:  Most of them will do. And probably half of them already have. There’s been a percentage of those 20 clubs will will report a loss 75 percent of them possibly more right 

Andy: Um you know, are you saying then that the the problem, the specific problem with Everton is they’d rather not publish tem or be they’re worse than even they thought they would be ?

Paul: Well, I think it just comes back to the culture that they only provide information when they’re absolutely forced to do so. And you know, in this instance, In terms of public information, today is the deadline. 

The penalties for not publishing it are minimal, as I just described. But it does create a very bad impression about the company, if they don’t publish them on time. And it’s just this rather strange communication strategy that the club has had for a number of years, that they only provide minimal amounts of information, which, to me, seems like the wrong strategy, because it just creates a space in which people like me can say things, if they… 

George: Yeah, let’s shut you up.

Paul:  Pardon?

George:  I said, yeah, lets shut YOU up! 

Paul: Well, yeah, you’re obviously going for the populist vote here George because I think there are many people who’d like to do that.  As was said on one of the Athletic podcasts’ this week almost every Premier League football club has got a person like me who for whatever reason has a hobby which is the club’s finances and that’s just the way it is. 

 George: I must say I’m amazed at what people find to be unpopular about you at all. It always feels to me that this is people who are not facing up to facts because you’re so detailed that you don’t seem to leave a lot of room for Oh, he’s just, or something or other. 

I don’t get it at all. It seems too authoritative to me. 

Paul: To be honest, I have some sympathy. I do not have sympathy with the people that give abuse, although I’ve to make it absolutely clear that for those people listening that do give abuse, just carry on, because it has no impact on me whatsoever. 

I have some sympathy with the idea that a football club, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s Everton or another football Club, is actually the place where people go to to forget their day to day problems and, you know, not even problems, just the grind of everyday life, especially when for a lot of people, times are hard, many people have lived with austerity for many years, times are difficult. 

And the last thing they want to hear is about the football club that they love, having even greater difficulties than perhaps they have themselves. So I do get that. But that doesn’t mean to say that that’s a good enough reason not to report on stuff that impacts the club and its future. 

George: But you would have, I understand that too, Paul, but you know, just to get to the nub of it, you would have to be mental, not to know that Everton are in deep, deep doo -doo. And somebody giving you the detail of the doodoo is not really a reason, 

It’s like you’ve always got an on/off switch, turn it off if you don’t want to listen to it. 

But don’t listen to it and then say it’s lies, or it’s got an agenda. I don’t know, I just get a bit defensive on your behalf. 

Paul:  Well, I genuinely appreciate that. And there are many, many people who feel the same, you know. I probably get as many positive messages about, you keep on doing what you’re doing, as I do get abusive messages. 

I think that’s just the nature of social media and possibly the nature of modern society that rather than challenge the message or challenge the people who are ultimately responsible for the message. They challenge the messenger. And I’m not putting myself on a pedestal or anything far, far from it. The real culprits in all of this are the people who have been running the club for 20-30 years, and in particular, Farhad Moshirii and his numerous board members in the last eight years since 2016. 

That’s where the anger, if there is anger, should be directed. But of course, he has become so anonymous and is so distant from the fan base generally that it’s impossible to communicate or even address them because there’s no feedback ever and therefore they have you know, if you’re feeling that way you have to protest or react in some way. 

Andy: It’s the messenger that gets it. 

George: That makes sense because I just went for a walk beforehand to think about what we were going to talk about once we talked about the match. And I was thinking that when we started doing these podcasts, because we’re just fans, even though you’re very informed, when we started doing them, I can’t remember when, but it must have been pretty soon after Moshiri arrived, it was very clear to me who I thought was to blame for what was going wrong. 

It was either Sam Allardyce, who, not going to go there, or it was the board and Baxendale and Kenwright, and they’ve all those and Moshiri, and they’re all gone. It’s all absent. They’re not there anymore. 

And yet the club is in a worse mess. So suddenly what we’re talking about makes complete sense that, of course, you’ve got to have someone to blame. So you’re getting the khaki end of the stick. 

Paul: Well, it is Easter Sunday, George, thank you for that, and I’m fine with that to be honest. And I think for a lot of people, a lot of those people may have, you know, bigger problems in their lives elsewhere. 

And if I am the lightning rod that helps them feel better at the end of the day, then you know I’m pretty cool with it because it really doesn’t impact me – in any sense at all. 

George: Well, I’m glad to hear that. But you know, the bigger picture is that we are a completely rudderless ship. 

Paul: Absolutely. You know I think the other aspect actually, George, about if you look at how the podcast has developed over the years is that when we first started talking, we probably 90% of it was talking about football, And maybe 10% was talking about other things, including the business of Everton Football Club. 

And we’ve not quite reversed that to 10% about football and 90% about the businesses. But it’s probably something like 25%. 

Andy: The way we’re playing, it doesn’t sound like a bad position. 

Paul: Maybe today we can sort of get somewhere close to that. But it probably now is something like 25% football, 75% about the running of the football club. And that, that’s not a reflection of our inability to talk about football. 

It’s just that the running of the football club has become such a pressing issue. And the longer it goes on and is unresolved, the greater the issue becomes. We are, without doubt, at the most critical time in our history. 

And the one thing I can say, which hopefully adds some surety to all of this, is that in the next few weeks, no matter what the outcome is, Moshiri will no longer have control of Everson Football Club, and we will have new people in control that might be… 

Andy: Can you go into that in some words of one syllable detail, Paul? 

Paul : Yeah, I will do it in a second, Andy. That might be 777. I sincerely hope it isn’t, but it might be, and I don’t think it will be. It might be an administrator because the club’s gone into administration because it can’t pay its bills, or it may be the combination of MSP and others. 

MSP is a US private equity company that lent Everton 140 million in May 2023. Hoping to get leveraged to buy it. With an agreement that said that for that loan they would receive 25% of Everton Football Club And that loan specifically was to help the repayments with regards to the stadium. 

Now as it turned out, another one of Everton’s creditors, that is people that Everton owe money to, a company called Rights and Media Funding, they have the right to say, hang on a minute, we don’t agree with this and therefore we can block the deal. 

and they blocked the deal on the basis that MSP were not contributing enough to warrant the 25% stake that they ended up in the business. What’s come to light, publicly at least, it’s been known to several people for a while, this week as a result of an article by Simon Goodleyin The Guardian, MSP, if their loan is not repaid at some point in the month of April, the date nobody knows for sure, but it’s thought to be the middle of April is that they have the right to acquire a majority stake in Everson Football Club. 

So if that scenario plays out, i.e. they don’t get the money, and they’re currently owed 158 million pounds. If they don’t get that 158 million pounds in the next three weeks to give them the benefit of the doubt, then Farhad Moshiri, who owns 127,000 shares in Everton has to give 67,501 shares to MSP

And that gives them a majority. So it’s 50% plus one share. That gives them a majority in Everton Football Club. Now, the question is, who pays MSP? And this goes back to this, goes to the conversation that we had a couple of weeks ago about the conditions that the Premier League have placed on 777. 

There’s four conditions, one of which is the repayment of the MSP loan. So 777 have to come up with the money to repay MSP. If they don’t, MSP have the right, if they so wish, and it’s not guaranteed that they will do so, But if they so wish, they can become the majority owners of Everton Football Club. 

Once they become a majority owner of the Everton Football club, it’s no longer within Farhad Moshiri’s control as to whom he sells the club to. So MSP could indeed decide that they want to own the Club and they could buy out the rest of their shares. 

Or indeed they decide they wanted to sell to somebody else. They could equally decide that they wanted to sell to 777, but I don’t think that will be the case. 

Andy: But if I could just come in then, so. 

Paul: Yeah, ask, whatever you want Andy, please. 

Andy: If MSP decided to take that off, then aren’t R&MF likely to say to MSP, right, well, we want all our dough back now. 

Paul: No, because I don’t, R&MF have already indicated that they wouldn’t want their money back if 777 became the owners. So it’s because, frankly, you know, R&MF are earning 10.5%. 

Yeah, they’re earning good interest on the money they’ve loaned. On money that they have loaned and that is pretty secure. 

Andy: Right. You know, the chances are as long as they’re getting there as long as they are getting, if you like, their monthly repayment with it with the 10% interest, they’ll be quite happy to continue us as is. 

Paul: Yeah, I mean, currently, then they are not getting any repayment. They’re just accumulating interest payments. 

Andy: Right. 

Paul: But, you know for that, for them, it’s a very effective and efficient use of their capital, they’re getting 10 .5% on a fairly low risk investment. So if they were to ask for their money back, then they have to find somewhere else to place that money and they are probably not going to have another place with the same rate of interest. 

Andy: Why would they ask that for money back, yeah okay fair enough that explains that yeah so like you say then then it’s a case of if do MSP take the club on themselves or do they then look to take it on short term and and look to find an alternative purchaser

Paul: Yeah I mean the problem MSP have is that if they were to take a majority stake by virtue of not being repaid. They inherit all of the problems that Farhad Moshiri currently has, right?

All the problem is that 777 would have if they owned the club, they’ve then got to meet the monthly obligations that we were talking about a few minutes ago. 

And they’re going to sort out the long term financing of the football club. Whether they want to do that, I don’t know because MSP has given no indication of what their plans would be in those circumstances. 

Andy:  They’re not likely to give any indication now because at the moment they’re hoping that sometime during April they are going to get a big fat cheque for a circa 158 million and then they could walk away. 

Paul: Well yeah, the other thing to consider of course is that this is not just MSP’s money. MSP have raised this money from a number of their clients, 13 in total, which includes Andy Bell, includes George Downing, both local business people on Merseyside, and actually also includes 20 million pounds from Farhad Moshiri that not many people are aware of – but they will be now I’ve just said it. But each of the other people that invested just in May of 2023, expected to get a return based on getting 25% of Everton Football Club and that was then and Everton football club today is very different from what Everton Football club was 10 months ago. 

Andy: Can I just ask a quick question? Why did Fahad Moshiri invest 20 million pounds with MSP to potentially gain 25% of the club that he owned 94% percent of their shares of? 

Paul: To be honest, I think it was probably one of those conversations that took place very early when MSP were negotiating and they said, look, if we’re going to raise money from our clients, we need you to put some money in almost as an act of good faith. 

George: So show us the colour of your money. 

Andy: Yeah, quid pro quo. 

Paul: And I suspect that was why it was done and why Moshiri actually did it. 

Andy: Right, okay, fair enough. 

Paul: To be fair to Moshiri, he had put £50m in earlier in the year as well, before the MSP investment. So at that stage he either was still committed or he still had access to that level of cash. Today he’s neither committed nor does he have access to the cash. 

George: Which is largely why he’s absent. 

Andy: Yeah, this absenteeism troubles me and as much as he currently owns 94% of the club, he is now a bona fide member of the board of directors. And we don’t hear diddly squat from on anything. In fact, the only thing we’ve heard in any kind of official announcement in the club was the piece that Colin Chong put out ahead of the weekend, which has been largely well received, but to me said very, very little. 

George: What did it say, Andy? 

Andy: Well, he couldn’t commit to anything about the potential, about ongoing discussions with MSP, between 777 and the club. And he expected everybody to understand and appreciate that those negotiations needed to remain private and confidential, which I guess everybody would, but it’s frustrating because it has been going on so long. 

And then it was, you know, we’re back to football and largely it didn’t say a great deal, it just seemed like some form of communication to appease the masses. And that’s literally, for me, that is all it did. 

Paul: It didn’t contain anything new. It did not contain, to me, anything to get remotely excited about. I might be doing the guy a terrible misjustice on this, but like I said, I read it again last night and thought, and desperately trying to change your mind, that there was something there that we could get excited about and it didn’t. 

Andy: Not at all. I was underwhelmed. Sorry, Mr. Chong. You might be the CEO, but to me you’ve written two pages of words there that, you know, you spoke a lot and said nothing. And we’ve had all that from previous CEOs. 

George: Lots of hot air and nonsense, 

Andy: Yeah. 

George: Go on, Paul. 

Paul: No, go on George.

George:  I was only going to ask, where’s the good news coming from? That’s all. 

Paul: Well, I think the only good news is that there will be a resolution one way or the other in the next few weeks. The Premier League have clearly set a deadline, that being the middle of April. The agreement with MSP, whilst the charge agreement is public, and I’ve made it public look on my website, the actual underlying loan agreement isn’t. 

But the understanding is that they expect to be repaid by the middle of April. And if they don’t, they then acquire a majority stake in Everton. So that’s a progress of a sort in the sense that at least it provides some form of surety as in going forwards. 

And, of course, the other thing, and the thing that Colin Chong also talked about, was the enormous uncertainty around what happens with Everton’s Second Commission hearing. 

Andy: Yeah. 

George:  Words. This week, isn’t it? 

Paul: Well, it, with the hearing, has already taken place. The expectation. Yeah, I know. 

George: The expectation is that the announcement is made sometime, sometime in, in the next few days. And, you know, on what basis will a penalty be applied? Is there any… 

Andy: Are we resigned to another penalty? 

Paul: I think we’re resigned to having been found guilty. 

George: Right. 

Paul: And therefore, yes, there will be a and based on, you know, what was said, certainly what we said in, in Everton’s appeal hearing that a sporting sanction would be applied and that the only appropriate sporting sanctions to apply is a points penalty. 

So the idea of a transfer embargo doesn’t, doesn’t work as far as the Premier League One, what is the tariff, is the idea that you start at three points and then you move upwards or downwards depending upon aggravating or mitigating circumstances, if that’s what’s applied. 

That seemed to be the indication based on what Nottingham Forest received and how Nottingham forest four-point penalty was calculated. So three points is the starting point and then you go up or down depending upon what other factors are involved. 

 Everton of course, are claiming, I think rightly, that you can’t penalize us for the three year period because two of those years we’ve already been penalized for, therefore that is a massive mitigation. 

So that would suggest that perhaps, rather than being a three point starting point, that maybe the starting point is one point because that’s obviously one third of three. Yeah. And then whether any more points are added or taken away. 

And who knows, only the commission we’ll be able to give that. So we’re in a position where, and this sounds a bit stupid, but we are in the position that it’s going to be anywhere between zero and three points, and maybe more than three points if they find there are aggravating factors. 

Andy: Either way, it is not good, is it? 

Paul: It’s not good and it will cause an enormous amount of unrest yet again for the club, but I suspect, given how fragile a club appears to be at the moment, just getting one uncertainty out of the way may be a benefit. 

And, you know, I’m not saying that we should be penalized, and that the appropriate penalty should be a sporting sanction, and the appropriate supporting sanction should be three points or whatever. 

I am not saying that at all. All I’m saying is that at least an element of the uncertainties that surround everything might be removed. Having said that I suspect that whatever it is everything are going to appeal because if you look at what happened with Nottingham Forest there was a very strong argument to say to Nottingham for Nottingham Forest to accept their four-point penalty because many people felt that it was based on three points plus one and that in an appeal the risk with an appeal of course is that you can go up as well as you you go down. 

I still think that Everton will probably appeal whatever the decision is so actually the uncertainty will continue. 

George: Will we then have to wait for that appeal to be judged before? 

Paul:  Yes, and that’s the big problem, whether Nottingham Forest’s appeal will be heard first, just in terms of, you know, the sequence, and then whether Everton’s appeals will have been heard and completed before the end of the season. 

And the nightmare scenario is that all clubs play the 38 games. And then there’s still the outstanding appeal for Everton and that outstanding appeal, the results of which might result in Everton’s relegation or Nottingham Forest’s relegation or Luton’s relegated and then you know at the end of the season those three clubs and any other club that might be dragged into it don’t actually know which league they’re going to be playing in next season. You know the damage that does to the league is enormous. 

Andy: I was just gonna say that there doesn’t seem to be any scenario in this where the Premier League is gonna come out smelling of anything but the brown stuff. Never mind the clubs who are involved, you know whether it’s Everton, Forest or anybody else you know, nobody’s coming out of this smelling of roses at all. 

The game itself is self tarnishing at this stage. 

Paul: Well, that’s absolutely true, Andy, but it also makes it perfectly the case for the regulator.

George: Yeah, I mean, this happens, so then just stand there and go, boys, you’re not letting this happen again. 

I’m changing everything. 

Paul: I mean, I think that’s now a given, isn’t it, George?

George: I think the Worst, or the most impacted, are the fans. 

Andy: Yeah, the fan. The fans are just about every club. It’s not just match-going fans, there’s 30 ,000 match-going fans at Goodison, 30 thousand at Forest, but it’s every other fan around the country. It doesn’t matter which club it is, it could be Arsenal fans or City fans, the other end of the table. 

whilst they might be having a little quiet giggle to themselves about other clubs having problems, the underlying issue is what is going on with the game of football and the way that football is run. 

But it’s not good for anybody. Even the slime ball six who wanted to break away. You know, must be thinking, you know what on earth is going on with football? Maybe that’s why this ill -conceived European Super League hasn’t completely disappeared from people’s minds. 

George: Absolutely Andrew. 

I think also the larger clubs thinking they’d rather get out of it and get into that and away from the Premier League because of the nonsense that has gone on this year? 

Paul: Yeah, I think also, if you’re a sponsor or you are a broadcaster, you are thinking, why are we paying billions of pounds a year for an organisation that can’t run itself properly? But I come back to the main point, for the fans. 

Ever since the last game of the season, Arsenal, away. 

Andy: Thanks for that, thanks for reminding us. 

Paul: And you know, one goes in off DCL’s backside in the 89th minute to grab a point that we all think then means that we’re safe. 

And we find out two weeks later, it was meaningless. 

Andy: I think if that, I mean, I might be putting the cart before the horse here, but I think if we went all the way to the last game of the season again, and then, irrespective of the result of that final game, if in the standings then we were still in Premier League and subsequently had another points deduction and were relegated, I think an awful lot of people would turn the back on football. 

I might be wrong, but I think that it would leave such a nasty taste in people’s mouths that I just get the impression that people would say that’s it, I’m done with it. 

George: I’ll give you the alternative version of that. 

Andy: Go ahead. 

Andy: Exactly what Everton have deserved. I couldn’t give a rat’s ass for Everton. They’ve been shaped for years, sorry Paul. Sorry Jesus, just sorry chocolate bunny! 

But I understand why you’re saying what you’re saying, but I don’t think it would wash Andy. I think people would go, what did you expect? They’ve been ridiculous. It’s a ridiculous club and they’ve got what they deserved to clean up the act for everybody else. 

I don’t think Wolves fans would say, oh poor Evan, I’m not gonna go and watch football anymore. No, 

Andy: no, you’ve taken me slightly wrong. I was meaning specifically Blues. Oh, well, I don’t know. 

Just looking around social media and one or two of the Forums last night, I just got the impression that people are getting so sick and tired of A), what we’re watching and B) what is what we don’t know is going on, you know, 

George: I couldn’t agree more with that. Yeah. I just think people are getting tired. 

Paul: But this is where we need leadership from the club, where We need the Club to say we are controlling and influencing events as much as we possibly can. And actually, our thoughts are with you guys, the guys and girls, are the supporters. 

And let us remind you of the reasons why you support Everton Football Club. And regardless of the outcome of what happens in the next few weeks, you will remain supporters of a football club and you remain valuable to us. 

And we will always look after your interests. That’s what the CEO should have been saying a few days ago. If I was the CIO, no sniggering at the back, that’s exactly what I would be saying. One, we’re responsible for our own actions and we are not trying to absolve ourselves from those responsibilities. 

But two, and, we now are in the hands of others, which is clearly our fault and we should never ever be in that position, but we are. But whatever we do, we’re doing your name because we are only the custodians of the football club, you are the spiritual owners of football. 

And we recognise that and do everything we can do to protect your interests. You say that, and you say it with sincerity, the fan base acknowledges and believes that. Look, you’re carrying 40,000 Evertonians with you, and hundreds of thousands of blues all around the world. 

And that to me is the definition of leadership. It’s easy to be a leader when times are good. Real leaders are the people who come through when time is difficult. and that’s what we’re missing in terms of ownership, Farhad Moshiri, in the directors, the executive and increasingly in terms and it’s unfair I know but increasingly the manager and the players. 

The manager might say look we never signed up for this we just signed to play football every week and we’ll come in and will train and we will keep our bodies as fit as we possibly can and do everything that is expected of us as a professional sports person and we’ll fight our hardest to make everything as successful as possible because that’s in our interests and that is what footballers sign up for. 

But there’s no doubt that in recent weeks and particularly yesterday that an element, that leadership element on and off the pitch is now disappearing from the squad, from the manager and the people involved on the footballing side, at least from my perspective. 

‘m not blaming him, I am just saying that’s an observation. 

Andy: Well I don’t disagree Paul, because as was pointed out in a couple of posts on social media that was aimed directly at us, Sean, Sean Dyche, you know, love him or hate him is neither in or there, but Sean Dyche took the majority of the players or went with the majority the player’s on a mid -season warm weather team bonding break to Portugal, while the others were on international duty. 

Branthwaite and Pickford with England and Coleman with Ireland and with Senegal, et cetera, but he’s admitted that while they went away, they didn’t specifically work on anything and then I saw something last night that said that they’d only had one day to prepare for the game against Bournemouth and it just begs the question, what on earth were they doing in Portugal? 

If they’ve not worked on anything, they have had three weeks since the defeat at Old Trafford. Three weeks for the majority of the squad to enjoy a break in Portugal in better weather than we were having here, a train, and a team bond. 

Don’t they come back and put on a performance at Bournemouth that was abjectly poor at best. And how can he say they only had one day to prepare? One day when they were all together, maybe. But it completely blew me last night, reading those comments. 

We didn’t work on anything specific while you were in Portugal. What the bloody hell did you spend a fortune for then? You could have stayed at Finch Farm and done sod all. You don’t have to go to the Algarve. 

Sorry. 

George: Well, there’s a very snappy answer to that though, isn’t there? But it’s not a very happy one to consider, but I don’t actually agree with both of you about yesterday. I thought that bunch of players did the best they could and that what was so tragic about what we were watching was that it was the best they could do. 

I don’t wish, you know, I mean, I’m sure there must be people, and I am glad I do not have social media, or I do not read it. There must have been people calling for his head. But I would not dream of changing him now. 

And I wouldn’t dream about it because the levels that the players are working at, the statistics of how hard physically they are working. I’ve been consistent and remain consistent, and were consistent with yesterday. 

These people are doing the best they could. It wasn’t pretty. And it wasn’t effective. But that’s the best they can do. You know, it was Shoddy, you’re right, the pair of you, but I didn’t think it was without application. 

There was not one of them. Let’s just pick on somebody that I’m very fond of. Look, Doucoré, who, you know, in a perfect world, he would go, I’ve given you a rest mate. You’ve done nothing for a month. 

I don’t think you’ve come back from that injury properly. But he can’t afford to do that because he’s got absolutely nobody that he trusts to play 90 minutes in his place in that role. Although I suspect that we might see better in DCL at St. James’s Park. But anyway. I’ll bet you we don’t. Well, how many chocolatey strings have you got to pay for it? 

Andy: I think there’s more chance of juggling something in playing two up front from the start, St. James’s Park. 

George well you’re probably right, but, you know, I thought they were, they did their best. I really did. And it was horrible because it’s not very good. But, you know, they have the majority of the possession, they pressed, but they didn’t attack. 

We had two goes on goal in 20 minutes. 

Paul: I think it’s a fair point, George. I don’t think anybody deliberately went into the game with the intention of not trying their best. No, and if I gave the impression that I thought that was the fact then I wish to absolve myself from that. I don’t think any of them went out there to play poorly. It just appeared to be so lacking in direction and ideas and invention and everything that we’ve said for weeks and weeks, and months and sadly for years, You know, for whatever reason, we just don’t seem to be able to step up another gear at any time. 

George: I mean, even when we got level, I think the equaliser was a farcical goal, you know from the Bournemouth position, with the goalie spinning it, balling nicely for Beto. OK, Beto’s was on hand, Beto put it in, put in the net, great, back to 1 -1. 

Andy: There’s six minutes of added time to be announced and then, holy smoke, we can’t hold on to it. We can hold onto that point. Did we deserve the point at that stage? I don’t care. We had a point and somehow we managed to let it go. 

George: Sorry for Seamus and all that, but at the end of the day, there’s no way that should have been just…

Paul:  I think where I agree with you, George, is that the players and the manager are effectively flatlining at this point. None of them have anything more to give than what they’re giving. 

I think that’s a fair comment to make, or at least it’s the comments I’m going to make. The question of course is whether or not they’re all good enough and it doesn’t appear to be good enough. And you know the evidence is building that it’s not good enough, and that’s based just purely not only on the enjoyment aspect of watching everything at this particular moment in time which you know hardly exists. 

It’s just based on results isn’t it? We’ve been found out Bournemouth knew exactly what they wanted to do yesterday and okay you know we’re in a ridiculous situation for a club of Everton statue where you look at the Bournemouth squad and the team and the bench and it’s superior to Everton’s and you know they’ve spent quite a lot of money in the last couple of years on players and it showed yesterday because we had nothing in reserve. 

As you say, Doucoure needs to take some time out. But we can’t do that. They knew exactly what they wanted to do, which is, you know, we could give the ball to Everton for as long as they want to keep hold of it, they’re not going to do anything with it. 

And it almost inevitably when they do lose the ball, that puts us in an advantageous position because, you know, the turnover has become such an important part of modern football, and that’s exactly what Bournemouth did. 

And we were outplayed and outthought by a not great Bournemouth side. 

Andy: How many games has it been since we’ve had a victory? We haven’t had a big victory in 2024. 

Paul: So, 13 Premier League games? 

Andy: Bournemouth started the season without a winning nine. They went nine games before they registered a victory. And since then, they’ve steadily improved and improved. We had that purple spell with four or five games on the truck, where we won matches and we’re getting to feel a bit more comfortable about things. 

And since then, we’ve gone downhill badly and we’re still going downhill because we keep losing. So, if Bournemouth and their manager could find a way to change things up, why can’t we? 

Paul: Because the manager is flatlining as much as the players. 

Andy: Oh, that’s actually part of it. 

I get Blues calling for his head, even though we probably can’t afford to sack him because of the compensation to him and his people would probably hurt us even further with profit and sustainability rules. 

But who would take the gig anyway? Even short term to the end of this season, there’s not going to be a queue of people. 

Paul: Well, not only all of that, which is all absolutely true, Andy, but who’s actually going to do the firing? 

Andy: Well exactly. 

George: Who’s going to do the hiring? 

I mean the only person as I see it who could fire and hire would be Thelwell as the director of football but he’s not the board member director football like Marcel Brands was but I don’t see, I think you’re right, in terms of the main board, Moshiri clearly doesn’t give much thought to Everton Football Club these days might be doing him wrong, but I don’t see it. 

Andy: The finance director, the other chap that Moshiri brought in that nobody’s ever heard of, and then you’ve got Colin Chong up to his elbows in the stadium. So who else is that? Surely, if it came to firing and hiring, it would surely have to be on Kevin Thelwell’s shoulders. 

Paul: the finance director is not on the board, by the way. So, right. Okay. The board is three, three members. But I mean, that’s, 

George: I think it would be an insanity firing this, this club and the situation to sack him now. 

Paul: Yeah. I agree with you. I mean, I don’t particularly hold out much that things are going to change much with him. they’re not. Because as I say, I just think he’s flatlining. I think the burden of being both a football manager and I’m going to use the word, but being also the custodian of the club, which he has been for quite some time now, and the Burden has fallen just on him. 

Nobody else has picked up the baton and said, you just focus on the football son, we’ll handle the media. I mean, that just hasn’t happened. No. 

George: So it’s a rudderless ship. You know, I keep talking about the Titanic. It’s not the titanic. It is the Marie Celeste. There’s nobody on it. It is an absolute insanity. The other thing I was thinking when I was at me was, I knew we were going to say all this because there was nothing else we could say I mean, yeah, we might disagree about what it doesn’t matter. 

 So given that we are only fans, and the answer to your question of 10 minutes ago, Andy, is, of course, it’s only the fans who care. I don’t believe that all the other people involved in football care anything like the average football fan, not care, you know, they’re all making reams of money out of it. 

and they’ve all got plenty of stuff to lose if it all goes tits up. Sorry, Jesus, sorry, chocolate bunny, but I’m getting ratty enough. But it’s only the fans that care. And so I was thinking, well, so what, you know, what can we do? 

And you can’t do anything except hope. And then I thought, well we’re going to do Talking to Blues and Talking The Blues has got quite an audience. What are you supposed to say? I’ll tell you what I am going to say. 

I think we’re going to get a result at Newcastle and the reason I say that is because yesterday was the absolute bottom of the barrel. The bottom of a barrel is not administration. The bottom of the barrel is not relegation. 

The bottom of the barrel is Seamus Coleman, Everton through and through, making a town halls and putting through his own net. That’s the bottom .Off to Newcastle on Tuesday night. And you’re probably right, he won’t play two, two or he’ll park a bus. 

But I think they might just park the bus and get a result and turn things around for themselves. Cause there’s nowhere else to go from Seamus doing what happened to him yesterday. 

Andy: Well, I hope you’re right bro. 

George: So do I Andy, I’m just trying to think of something positive to contribute to the state of Everton football club at the moment because everything else you think of is just a nightmare and has been for years. 

I wonder, is it our fault if we stop doing the podcast? Would things improve in the great vibes? Go on, that’s it. That was my rant. Thank you very much. 

Paul: George, I admire your optimism, but it doesn’t really matter whether you’re right or wrong. and it’s down to the players, isn’t it? I mean, they’re the only people that can resolve this and one might have hoped that going away to Portugal, having some time away from Premier League football, that they’d come back refreshed and, you know, effectively ready to restart at what is a mini season. 

But that wasn’t evidenced yesterday was it? 

George: No, that’s the most disappointing thing, is that there was no evidence whatsoever of well, of any light at the end of the tunnel. You would have hoped that the chance to go away and train in warm weather in a different part of world, well Andre Gomes knows it like the back of his hand probably, but you know and as they said bond with one another and you’d come back and play with a bit more oomph in the game and there wasn’t. 

Paul: When we’ve all worked in situations whereby the company or George, for you, the theatre company, perhaps things are not going quite right, but it’s the same group of people looking at the problems through the same eyes. 

Sometimes it just needs somebody to come in, somebody different to come in and say you know what guys you’re all pretty good but you just missed this or you’ve just gone slightly out of kilter this way that way or the other way and again that’s what we need but that is not what we’ve got. 

You know it’s a long time I think since Everton have had somebody like that but the idea that John Moores could rock up at Bellefield and he would know because he was an excellent manager of people, whether or not it was the arm around the soldiers, shoulders approach, going to the changing room, tell everybody how good they are, just being a bit unlucky, don’t worry, Saturday’s going be great. 

Andy: Or it’d be going there, as you say, and you know, give them what it’s worth. 

George: Yeah, but having that different person to come in, and not just say the same thing, or be the same person that’s saying the same thing week in week out, which I fear is here we’re at with Sean Dyche. 

Yes, I think you’re probably right about that. would be hugely valuable, but we don’t have that person. 

Now, this is sorry, Paul, go. 

Paul: Oh, maybe we do. Maybe it needs, I don’t know, a Tim Cahill or a, you know a Jagielka or Southall I just, i don’t think it’s going to be Southall, but yeah, Southall

Andy: No, no I don’t think it would be, I don’t think that it’d be Southall, but there’s a man who made the absolute most of his God given talents and carried a club to glory Yeah. he never accepted second best. 

Paul: Or it needs the famous Howard Kendall Chinese in Southport evening.

Andy: Maybe, yeah. 

George: Yeah, maybe they need a night on the lash rather than a fortnight and then ten days or however long it was in Portugal

Is this the resurrection of our Lord that’s bringing this kind of thinking into this podcast? 

Paul: I think it’s an acknowledgement that if you’re flatlining just doing the same thing every week, every day and expecting a different outcome. 

George: It’s interesting that you should pick on the state of Bournemouth at the start of the season, Andy, because the commentator yesterday, it was interesting, I’m sorry I can’t remember his name because he was good, he was talking about how the board had kept faith. 

They’d replaced a guy who’d done well, Yeah. Who took over from Eddie Howe and they’d given the gig to this Italian guy and he goes and loses nine matches. His philosophy, the Italian guys, as they told it to me, was to play without fear. And the guy who was commentating with him, The Pro, that sent it forward, who said he thought it was a penalty, but Calvert Lewin had been too honest, he should have done a splashy dive and then he would have got all that pollocks again. 

He said that it takes time for a team of players to begin to believe in a philosophy and it took them nine defeats and the board’s still going no he’s the man, stick with him and as you say the rewards are clear. 

Andy: They’ve got 40 points and they were by far the better of the two sides when both sides concentrated yesterday. Yeah. Because they’ve got something to believe in. And I suspect, Paul, that the bottom line with you is that if we played to the very best of Sean Dyche’s capabilities, it’s still not going to be particularly positive football. 

Paul: Exactly, because we’ve gotten ourselves into a position where if the opposition gives us the ball, we frankly don’t know what to do with it. 

Andy: No. No, there’s no creativity and no threat. 

Paul: And that becomes hugely limiting because you’re then left with… Well, I mean, if you can’t score goals out of possession, how do you score gold? The records would show this season that the only way you could score a goal is from a free kick or a corner. 

And we’ve been pretty good at that, although not quite so good in recent weeks. But that’s not enough in this league, because people have recognised, if we can recognise it, I’m pretty sure other managers and coaches and technical people can recognise, just give everything the ball, they’re not going to harm you. 

And that’s what happened. I think we had 52% possession yesterday. Well, yeah. Could have gone and had a cup of tea and come back and we still wouldn’t have scored. 

George: I’m afraid that that is true. And one imagines that Dobbin won’t be back for Tuesday night, will he? 

Andy: No. Not from the sound of it, no. 

George: What’s wrong with him Andy? 

Andy: I think it’s got an ankle strain. I’m kind of hoping that Mykolenko recovers from his illness to play at left -back because I thought Godfrey at left back yesterday had a disappointing game. 

George: There are so many things that you can pick on that are symbolic of what’s wrong with the club. One, we haven’t got two left footed players in the bloody squad. So that when Mykolenko is injured, you know, Brighton must have, Bournemouth, sorry, must have sat there and gone, wait a minute, Godfrey is right footed. 

Yeah, so that should be fun for you, Mr. Rapid. And it was. And the other thing is that, when we finally change things, Ashley Young comes on to the I’m sorry. Unlike Doucoure, I have never liked Astley Young. 

He was a plunging cheat when he played for that long. And now he’s a slow clod hopper. And the Everton right side for the last 20 minutes of a match that we’re losing 1 -0 goes He’s Coleman, Gomes, Young, with Young playing not as cover for Coleman, he doesn’t need cover, but in front of him, as though he was some sort of threat, this can’t be the case. 

There must be a 12 -year -old at Everton who can actually run quickly with the ball. Where’s Warrington, put him on, do something, surprise the team, everybody, you know, kid comes on it’s his debut, right, let’s work out for him then. 

But no, on comes Ashley Young. I’m done with it. It’s just maddening. Absolutely maddening because it’s all without hope. You know, with the deepest respect to Ashley Young, he’s a professional footballer and knows far more about it than I do. 

He comes on and you go, oh, I see. 

Yeah, there’s nothing else on the bench. 

Andy: Not in that manager’s opinion, no. 

George: And for all I know that is 100% right. 

He’s been in Portugal with him, he knows the rubbish. 

And you know, sadly again, these days when Ashley Young comes on, the first tackle he makes is going to be a foul. And the second tackle it makes, if it’s a foul, is likely to see him booked. 

George: Yeah. He was lucky to get away with that yesterday. 

Andy: Yeah, yeah, he was a little bit. 

George:  Can I just return to the completely banal? The commentator said something that I hadn’t realised was yet one more expletive -deleative about VAR. The guy clips Dominic Calvert-Lewin, who trips up, goes down, the ref thinks it’s not a pen. 

So the game continues. VAR does not have the right because he didn’t give a decision to go, you’ve got that decision wrong. I didn’t realize that VAR can only come into operation when the referee goes, that’s a pen. 

And then they go, no, it isn’t because it’s Everton, or yes, it is because he’s united. Because he didn’t give a decision, there’s nothing they could do. 

That’s correct, isn’t it? I think they did look at it. But I think it was Michael Oliver who was on VAR duty. And Michael Oliver apparently deemed that there was insufficient contact or minimal contact to warrant a penalty. 

Oh, I’m wrong. That commentator was wrong, they are allowed to say to the referee, you’ve missed one there. 

Paul: Well, there are conditions, you’re not wrong George, there were conditions attached to it. And those conditions are either there has to be a clear and obvious error, subjective, obviously, or a serious missed incident. 

Now you define that as you see fit. And that’s going back to your point, Andy. VAR official didn’t see that incident as clear and obvious an error by the referee or seriously, you know, a seriously missed incident yeah and yet you know when Liverpool or United just for example play contact is contact and it’s a penalty yeah you know the the United penalty against one of the two penalties against Everton and almost identical situation. 

Andy: Yeah, yeah, there you go. I think we should probably get away from this before we really upset people on Easter Sunday talking about United and winning penalties against everything. We could bring the podcast into disrepute. 

All right, so look  there we are. So, onwards to St. James’s Park and the North Face of the Eiger with the traveling fans. 

George: Bless them. Bless’ em all. That song, the first Everton song I ever learnt when I became an Evertonian. And it doesn’t all fit those fans, bless them all my God. 

Paul: Well, given it’s Easter Sunday, I suppose we’ve got to believe in the resurrection. I do. 

Andy: And we will be here on Easter Wednesday night going, 

Paul: yeah. All you doubting Thomas is out there. 

George: Exactly. Our wives will make humble pie for us to eat. Oh, 

Now that reminded me. The Toulouse sausage yesterday. Oh my God, it was epic. This is funny. Jules went into the supermarket the other day. And because she doesn’t eat meat. She said to the butcher, can I just have some just for one portion. 

And he gave her a piece of Toulouse. This was a male butcher. He gave her enough for two people. Yesterday, when she went in, the butcher was a woman. She gave her, she gave a one -portion. I know, it just made me laugh that a bloke, you need a load of sausage, mate. 

The woman’s going, yeah, don’t be piggy. You only need this much. And of course, she was right. You know, it’s so filling. Sorry. Fancy getting a salutient sausage. 

Paul: Could we get that male butcher to go and have a word with the lads playing football for everything? 

George: No, let’s get him to feed the Newcastle squad so they’re all bloated. 

Andy: Maybe the male butchers realised that Jules was buying sausage for you 

George: You’d agree to booger no okay but i appreciate I’m not buying sausage unless it’s a bloke at that counter that’s put it out there all right let’s let let us let draw a close to this now enough of the culinary exploits yeah and we and where you can pick it up after after Tuesday. Yeah. Come on, you blues. 

Paul: Trips in Newcastle. Never mind. Good luck, boys. All right. Thank you both so much. And thank you to everybody for listening. Slightly reversed program this week, wasn’t it? In the sense that we talked about off the field stuff before we talk about on the field stuff, but well, anyway, It’s out there. 

We got there in the end. We’ve got the only end and yeah. So George and Andy, thank you very much. Thank you to everybody for listening and enjoy the rest of your Easter weekend. And we go again on Tuesday. 

Yeah, we do. Cheers, guys. Thanks very much, Yes. So, let’s do this.