Here is the transcript of this week’s Talking the Blues! Enjoy!

Paul: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, depending upon when and well you are, and what time of the day you’re listening to this episode of Talking the Blues. Andy and George, how are you both?

Andy: Not bad. 

George: Good, thanks

Paul: I hope you’re feeling a little better than Anthony Gordon will be feeling this morning. 

George: Tough chicks. 

Paul: Thank you for that, George. Well, where did we start? I hadn’t really intended starting with Anthony Gordon, and he’s throwing me completely now, George, with that comment, but there we go. What did you think of yesterday’s game? 

George: I didn’t watch it, so I’m happy to listen to you two. All right. Well, I couldn’t. 

Andy: I decided yesterday to watch it as a neutral, because if I’d have watched it as an Evertonian, I’d have been raging about, you know, who is the referee. And in answer to a number of questions that have been posed at me this morning, did I go to the game yesterday knowing that Craig Pawson was the referee? 

The answer is an unequivocal no. I said last year or the year before that I would never go and watch a game that he was refereeing again. And I stand by that decision. And I think I was proved right. 

Because if you watched that as a blue yesterday, you were probably spitting feathers at times. If you watched it as a neutral, as I tried to watch it yesterday, then I actually found it, it wasn’t a great game by any stretch of the imagination. 

I think it was two sides who were both struggling for their best form. Obviously, we had, you know, injuries and changes to making the lineup, as did Eddie Howe, Newcastle. So I think it was, I don’t think it was ever going to be a classic. 

I think it was two teams searching for form, still both below what they’re capable of. And I think there was no lack of effort from both teams. You know, it was competitive, to say the least. 

And it was just lacking quality and lacking finish. Really, for me, I thought as a neutral watch in the game, it wasn’t, I don’t think it was a bad watch. I think if you were a Geordie watching it, or a diehard Evertonian watching it, you probably felt you were short changed at times. 

But in the end, I think, I think the draw was probably the right result. But, you know, I mean, we have to take into account that Pawson was refereeing. So there’s dubious decisions all along. The first one was in the first couple of minutes. 

When Michael Keane went in with his boot was up, it was high. There’s no doubt about that. His boot was a kind of waist level. And in a 50/50 with Tannali, there was absolutely no contact whatsoever between the two players. 

But Tannali went down like he’d been hit by an Exocet. And the referee gave a free kick, despite the fact there was no contact at all. So inside kind of two and a half minutes, you think, oh, well, there’s the pattern set already. 

And thankfully, I wasn’t watching it with the Jamie Carragher commentary, because I understand that Carragher was screaming for a red card inside two and a half minutes. But you know, that’s what you expect from dickheads like him. 

And I had a completely different commentary, which was Martin Tyler and Jim Beglin. Jesus, it’s not red shite on one channel or on another channel. So he kind of set the tone early on that there was going to be dubious decisions throughout the game. 

And I mean, the obvious one was the penalty against everything when Tarkowski put a perfect judo throw on Tannali to throw him to the ground. But between before that, you know, I think they’ve been two or three corners before that one, the Newcastle, and each of those corners, Dan Burns, the giant centre up, he must be six foot five, if he’s an inch, was clearly told to go and bully Ashley Young, who’s kind of five foot six and four stone wet through. And the grappling and pushing and shoving and manhandling of Ashley Young by Dan Burns was quite honestly ridiculous. And Ashley Young did really well to in trying to stand his ground against a man considerably bigger and heavier than himself. 

But all that went unnoticed and and continued to go unnoticed until Tarkowski got the up without an issue, pulled and threw Tannali to the deck. And VAR stepped in and reviewed it. And you have to say quite rightly it was a penalty. 

It was a stupid thing for Tarkowski to do, but he did it and he was punished for it. And Pickford did the business. in making the save from Anthony Gordon, which please goodness and no end. I have to say as well, on the TV presentation, I was watching that the atmosphere in the stadium sounded tremendous. 

Right through the game, start to finish the atmosphere, the noise from the crowd was was terrific all the way through, which to me kind of belied some of the comments I saw on social media about what a what a poor game it was. 

I’m thinking if it’s a poor game, the crowd normally shuts up, but the crowd didn’t show up yesterday. I thought the crowd was really good. Both sets of fans, you know, obviously, the Newcastle fans were giving Pickford as much as much jib as they could give him. 

And he responded by making a penalty save to laugh at them afterwards, you know, so and I suppose the other great area is that the non pen on DCL. And which again, you know, are you playing porcelain? 

Do you play there? I blame both of them. They’re both as well. Blame George Osborne. Well, I figured when that was going to come up. But, you know, the whole thing with the VAR, we can talk about VAR to the cows come on, but there were penalty decisions in other games yesterday. 

The most glaring one was in the Liverpool game at Palace, where Virgil van Dijk clearly, every single person in the ground must have seen it, pulled the arm of Mark Guelhi as he was going for a cross. 

And there was no decision, no penalty. And according to form, the decision from the VAR was, well, Guelhi wouldn’t have got to the ball anyway. So despite the fact he was having his arm pulled out of its socket, it’s not a penalty. 

And at that point, you kind of think I’m giving up with this game. Because that was a ridiculous decision. The decision against not giving DCL the pen. But when, you know, there’s contact between his leg and Burns, like, you know, who contacted whom first? 

I thought Burns contacted DCL first before DCL’s trailing leg caught Burns. But the VAR and Craig Pawson between him decided that it wasn’t a pen. And it’s just it just beggars belief at times some of these decisions. 

It really does. 

George: What was your take on that, Paul? 

Paul: I thought it was a pen based just based on had that occurred anywhere else on the pitch, other than in the opponent’s penalty area, it would have been called a free kick. Right. And I don’t. I don’t see how the rules can be well, the rules aren’t different. 

You know, there’s not there’s nothing in the rules that says you treat, you know, a foul challenge any differently in the penalty box, and then you do outside the penalty box. So for me, it was a stone wall pen. 

And why it wasn’t given, why VAR decided not not to review and give it. And who only knows? I’ve literally got no idea. And I can’t add anything even half sensible that might suggest, well, here’s the logical reason why it wasn’t given, because there is no logical reason as to why it wasn’t given. 

And you know, hate hate to sort of feel as if it’s a conspiracy, but get the awful feeling that had the same event occurred at the other end of the pitch. It would have been a penalty. 

Andy: I think you could expand that and say that had that happened in a game against anybody in the top, in the supposed big six, top six, it would have been a penalty. Not for us though. 

Paul: Yeah, well, I suppose you could ask yourself the question whether or not Newcastle by virtue of their Saudi backing and now make it one of the big seven. Obviously they don’t in terms of, you know, whatever success that they’ve achieved or as is the case, not achieved on the football pitch. 

But I think if you’re looking at the Premier League from a global perspective, Newcastle now make it one of seven rather than one of six. So, you know, if different standards are applied to the six, and, you know, there’s a great body of evidence to suggest that that is the case, I’m struggling to see how those different standards couldn’t be applied for Newcastle benefit either. 

Andy: And. 

Paul: And this is a complete sort of non sequitur, but I think there is a slight relevance to it. Why on earth were Newcastle United playing in white and green? I mean, I know why. But why? It is the Saudi colours. 

The soft power element of PIF funding at Newcastle was there for the world to see. But unless I’m colour blind, there’s no colour clash between a black and white striped kit and the royal blue of Everton. 

So why were they in an away kit? 

Andy: Well, they’re also probably justifying the fact that the fans are paying ridiculous amounts of money for a kit that they’ll only wear two or three times a season, so they have to wear it at some point. 

Paul: I’m sure there’s contractual reasons as to why they have to wear it because, as you say, some people will be buying that kit and paying extortionate price for it, and therefore they want to see their team play several times a season in it. 

I get all of that, but for me, it’s just further evidence of where the game has its values. Or wrong. 

George: It’s been a great moment. 

Paul: I sort of sound like, you know, one of those two old guys in the muppets constantly moaning. But, you know, I was just watching the game and it was the first thought that I had. Why, you know, there’s a load of things around, maybe I’m going to go on a bit of a rant, there’s a load of things about modern football that I don’t like. 

I think one of course is the constant advertising of betting firms and betting activities, you know, before games, during games in terms of round pitch, half time, you know, before the second half starts. 

Every time there’s a break, you know, you’re bookended by gambling advertisements, but then also, you know, this idea that the Premier League is just a billboard for anybody who’s got enough money to be present in it. 

And, you know, whatever your opinions of the Saudi regime on, and I don’t know, particularly high opinions of them, as you might expect. I don’t really want to see it on my television screen, especially when there’s no need for it. 

George: Well, you’d have to define what no need for it means in the 21st century. 

Paul: Well, yes. And of course, the need is driven by the need to maximise the amount of revenue that a football club generates. 100% correct. And therefore, in order to do that, any moral questions Anything goes Yeah, any moral questions that you may have or any standards or any values that you may have just go out the window. 

And people might say, well, why should football be any different from any other aspect of modern life? Well, I think it should be different. But then that’s just my opinion. 

George: Well, you’re entitled to that opinion until they start taxing you for it. 

Paul: Which they will. Well, I think they already are, aren’t they, in terms of if you go to the game, how much you have to pay for a ticket, how much you have to pay for all the merchandising, and if you’re not close enough to go to the game on a regular basis or you live overseas, whatever you’re paying in terms of subscription fees. 

Andy: Thank you. 

Paul: And, you know, what are we paying for? At the end of the day, we’re paying money. It goes into the back pockets of players, agents, managers. And, you know, I think there’s a huge question as to at what point is the amount of money that those people are paid? 

Does it become unacceptable? But then there’s all the ancillary stuff around it such as state sponsorship. And I know this is just not just about the game against Newcastle. It is about football more generally. 

And as I say, the preponderance of gambling investments. I mean, I’m going to go on to go for it. I’ve been listening to several. I’m not going to say competing podcasts, because I don’t think we should view other Everton podcasts as competition. 

We’re all trying to do our best to represent what we think about the game and about what we think about the football club that we all love. So we all offer a product or service that meets the needs of different types of supporters, like, you know, and therefore I don’t see us as being in competition. 

But I listen to several other podcasts that are Everton related and I’m sure if I went to any other podcast for any other football football club, I’d find out the same. And I find the people who are actually presenting the podcasts, starting their podcasts by reading out advertisements from Sky Bet. 

And I just shake my head. Why? Why on earth is this happening? 

George: because they’re getting money from that. 

Paul: Yeah, of course, I mean, you know, that’s the obvious reason that they’re getting paid to do it. But to talk about, you know, and the sky better person in particular talks about, you know, gambling being a fundamental part of the game, and it’s okay, because it’s done responsibly. 

No, it’s not. It’s not okay at all. Any idea how many people, how many families up and down the country, whose lives are destroyed by the impact of gambling? There’s a thing in the Guardian this week and about the Coates family, you know, the family that owns Bet 365, the people that own Stoke City, and then I know that they’ve done some good stuff in and around Stoke. 

And you know, they’re, they’re considered to be a good local employer and stuff. But at the end of the day, you know, they’re now one of the UK’s wealthiest families, I think their net worth is something around seven billion pounds 

And at the end of the day, they’ve generated that wealth through the pernicious transfer of wealth from millions of poor people to one family that’s become very, very wealthy. And yet here we are, as a sport, as a game, something that gets piped into every home in the country, something that all of our kids watch, and our grandchildren watch. 

And that is completely dominated by gambling and advertising. And maybe this is not the platform to be saying this, but 

George: It is. Carry on. 

Paul: And I’m just calling it out as I see it. And there will be people listening to this who will try and defend the gambling industry and say, well, there’s no harm in it. And if you only go down that route, let’s talk about alcohol, let’s talk about fast food, let’s talk about the nanny states, et cetera, et cetera. 

Well, yeah, you can present that argument, but it doesn’t do anything as far as my views are concerned. I just think it’s appalling. And I don’t see how anybody can possibly justify it other than the fact that it generates revenue for the football club, the television channel that happens to be broadcasting the game, or indeed a podcast run by fans, there’s four fans. 

It generates revenue for them. I have no problem with podcasts generating revenue. Obviously, when people are doing it full -time and it’s their job, they have to generate revenue because otherwise they wouldn’t be able to do it. 

And the three of us are in a fortunate position where we don’t need to do that. But why does it have to be gambling with a fan audience? 

George: This is fantastic. I don’t go to the match and you two rants. This is brilliant. I’ve got no argument with what you’re saying, none whatsoever. I wish I had, because you’re obviously in the mood for a punch upl. 

Paul: Well, yeah, I didn’t really intend to talk to you about it, but it has to be said and I’m saying it. 

George: Yeah. Well, what’s the name on our shirt? 

Andy: Yeah. 

George: And you know there was Denise hoping that one day that wouldn’t happen and we could be sponsored by Quaker Oats or someone. 

Paul: Well, I mean, that won’t happen from the end of this season, which is, you know, in isolation, a good thing. But it just means that the marketing budget that the gambling companies have for front of shirt sponsoring will go somewhere else. 

It will increase the amount of advertising on TV, it will increase the amount of advertising around the stadium. It will increase the amount of sort of brand promotion on different TV channels. From my perspective, it should just be banned completely. 

And if football can’t survive without that revenue, then football has to address much bigger problems than we already think it has. 

Andy: Well, when’s this independent regulator going to… 

George: I was just going to say, when they offer you the job, Paul, is this what you’re going to suggest? 

Paul: They’re not going to offer me the job, but it would be very high up on my agenda if I was ever in that position. 

George: What was your question, Andy? Sorry. 

Andy: No, no, the question was, when is this, you know, when is the much more much room of independent regulator going to be appointed and given some teeth to address issues like this? Because until we get that independent regulation, football and the, you know, the gambling companies will just carry on, carry on regardless. 

You know, I mean, I don’t disagree with anything Paul said in this issue, but until somebody is appointed with the power to either stop it or curve it or put limits on it, they’ll just carry on, they’ll just ride roughshod over everybody. 

And the more, the more people they can suck in to spend, you know, their hard-earned wages on gambling, be it horses, football, you know, the lottery, whatever. I mean, you know, I mean, the adverts on TV for the betting are just ridiculous. 

You can bet on how many corners there are, how many throw-ins there are. You know, if you get to 2 -0 up, you can check out. So you’re not even, you’re not even betting on 90 minutes. You’re betting on a score line, you know, at any given juncture in the game. 

It’s just, they’re just coming up with a different angle to extract more money out of the general public all the way down the line. And, you know, as Paul said, you know, you’ve got the likes of the Coates family that own Bet365 and Stoke City, who are making an absolute mint out of it. 

And at the same time, you know, you can, you know, the clubs are making money on it and they don’t seem to give a monkeys that there might be people inside, you know, in the evidence case, people inside Goodison who can ill afford, you know, after they pay, after they paid for their match ticket and the replica shirt at 78, 80 quid, whatever. 

Andy: And a fiver for a program, you know, and then someone comes along and says, if you’re having a bet on the game, as they’re doing all the sweets in the boxes, somebody comes down from one of the betting companies and tries to rope you into having a bet. 

Andy:Is that a fact? 

George: A human being tips up in the room. 

Andy: Yeah. Now, you know, you could say, well, they’re going around, they’re going around the hospitality suites where the people in there are not on their uppers. Those people can afford it. You know, they’re happy to pay two or 300 quid to have lunch and watch the game. 

So them having a fiver on a betting form on the game or whatever is neither in or there to them. But it’s not the point, the point is, you know, football should be about football, not extracting every potential penny they can out of the people inside the ground or outside the ground. 

Those at home or whatever, those who are abroad watching, you know, watching the game and like Paul said, paying subscriptions and what have you. 

George: I have to say, Andy, whilst I don’t disagree with one word you’re saying, you’re living in the past and probably all three of us are, because what you’ve just described is a perfect description of modern football. 

And what you’re also implying, and I think you’re absolutely right, is the club’s basic contempt for the fanbase. And I don’t know, you know, we can talk about our own club. But we played Newcastle yesterday, and I have never ever forgotten that. 

Was it Sheppard? The Geezer was once their chairman, saying that the women were all dogs and the fans were all stupid because they bought the shirts. And I, you know, you can’t really extrapolate out from that and say that every chairman thinks that it’s not true, can’t be true, but I bet the percentages are pretty ugly. 

What you’re talking about, what you’re both talking about, is a contempt for the fans. I can’t, you know, that’s what it feels like to me and the idea that it’s sport or a game or football has long gone. 

This is a big, big global business. And if the regulator bans everything from wearing betting companies on their shirts, will he ban them from wearing them on their shirts when we get into Europe? Will he ban the European teams who come to play with betting things on their shirts? 

How’s that going to work? 

Andy: Well. 

George: We won’t go anywhere near it. 

Andy: Well, the first hurdle we’ve got to overcome is getting an independent regulator approved and appointed. 

George: I was getting into Europe, but anyway, yeah, go on. 

Andy: Well, how long has it been since Tracy Crouch was involved? That’s got to be two years ago. 

Paul: It’s according to, sorry, cut across you Andy, it was in the King’s speech, so it’s supposed to come into law at some point in this parliamentary year. 

George: And he’d be describing the size of the teeth he’d be given. 

Paul: Well, that’s an interesting point, George, because actually, you know, one of the things and I’m not going to go straight too far into political areas, but one of the issues currently, of course, is Keir Starmer is actually sort of dampening down expectations of what the actual rules will be and what authority the regulator will have. 

So yeah, it might be the case that we actually see a much less effective regulator than we all perhaps might have hoped when Tracy Crouch first did her fan led review. 

George: Why is he doing that? 

Paul: The power of the lobby. 

George: Yeah. 

Paul: You know. 

Andy: Let’s not go into the power of the lobby because I’m in danger of veering off on a massive tangent if you go that way. 

Paul: No, but it is the case. 

George: You’d be a tangent to me. Nobody’s talked about a f*ck… 

Paul: It is the case that whatever the regulator becomes, it’s unlikely to be as strong as people first would have wanted. And certainly, you know, the whole thing came out of the Fan Led Review and then the Super League stuff. 

It is not going to have the teeth that we might have thought in the first instance, which, you know, again, says a lot about politicians and the people who run the game. 

Andy: No, no. 

George: And the people who run the game, just to fill in my naivety, are the people who will be lobbying. Yes. Yeah. So it’s a circle. Keep it closed. Don’t let anything too dangerous in because we’re all doing marvelously. 

Andy: Yeah. 

George: Thank you. 

Paul: Just to finish off on the point, total losses per annum in the UK, gambling losses are around about £11 billion a year. 

Andy: Gambling losses by the general public?

Paul: By the general public are around about 11 billion pound a year and then when you 

Andy: have gone down the tubes. 

Paul: Yeah, and then when you start to look at that, in terms of, okay, so what elements, I mean, you’re, you’re making the point, Andy, about, you know, people who are in boxes or people who are in the lounges can afford to have a bet because otherwise they wouldn’t be in the lounges in the first place. 

Andy: Uh -huh. 

Paul: It’s no surprise at all that the biggest losses, biggest gambling losses are found in the most economically deprived areas across the country. So the people who can least afford to lose money on gambling are the people who lose most. 

Andy: Yeah. 

Paul: And they’re the people who are most subjected to all of this advertising. And some people say, well, you know, the advertising within the gambling industry, within football, hasn’t led to more gambling. 

Paul: Well, why would they do it if it wasn’t expanding their businesses? 

Andy: Exactly. If it wasn’t expanding their business, they wouldn’t be pouring millions into the advertising. 

George: Absolutely. And what were your losses last year, Paul? 

Paul: I don’t have those figures. It was a figure I jotted down from the Guardian article that I read during the week. Well, like moaning about gambling advertising makes a change from moaning about Sean Dyche anyway. 

George: Aye. 

Andy: Well, I mean, well, yeah, I mean, if we’re going to get if we’re going to get back to yesterday’s game, I mean, I thought, well, when I when I first saw the team sheet, I’ve got to be honest, I thought, oh, dear. 

But in a bizarre way, I think he kind of got it right yesterday. Um, because having lost Branthwaite, Mykolenko from the defense, you know, he brought Michael Keane back in. And I think a lot of people would have liked to have seen Jake O’Brien given the game. 

But as it happens, Michael Keane had a decent game, Ashley Young had a decent game. James Garner had a decent game, he seems to be getting more accustomed to the role of playing it right back in the absence of Patterson and Coleman. 

Andy: Tarkowski, Tarkowski. 

George: and Dixon who sat on the bench. 

Andy: and yeah and Dixon who sat on the bench but I mean if you look at well the way I saw it yesterday as I said before other than the penalty save and a couple of shots that were straight at him I don’t recall Jordan Pickford being tremendously overworked and if he wasn’t overworked keeping Newcastle at bay I mean they had they had more of the ball but the back four in front of him actually played pretty well yesterday I mean we’ve not been short in having a pop at Ashley Young but I thought he actually had a very good game yesterday I thought Ghana played well, 

Keane played well, Tarkowski was Tarkowski you know he’s physical he’s tough he’s uncompromising as he proved when he conceded the pen I actually thought Mangala was Mangala yesterday was the antidote to decorate it was running around like an endless chicken and Mangala seemed quite cool and calm and composed in the midfield he’s not a ball winner which is what we desperately lack but he did bring it I felt he brought a sense of calm in possession the problem what the problem was we weren’t getting anything like the service or the support that DCL the service to him and the support he needed I mean to be fair Burns had DCL largely in their pockets today but two on one is always going to be favored you know the two are rather than the one unless the one is really special but I suppose you know was the criticism for dashes today I suppose when you looked at the team sheet prior to kick off yes you would have thought why isn’t he picked a specialist right back you know why isn’t he giving O ‘Brien a chance over Keane why you know why is he going with his if you like his tried and trusted Keane and Tarkowski pairing but in the end I think that selection was justified 

George: I think I would have settled for nil, nil, especially with Branthwaite out. So, but the bit that confuses me, and I’m curious just to know what either of you two think, because you both watched again, why wasn’t, why does, er, Erogamum, I still can’t say his name. 

Erogamum. I even practised it. Just go insane. Yeah, I feel a bit mean to him, not, anyway. Why he’s not starting, I’m puzzled by that, because he is a ball winner, and he’s faster and a better organised player to me. 

And as far as I could see, the first four games that we lost, he was the man of the match each time. One spark of possibility, him and I, I’m lost for, I understand why Dyche picked the defence that he did. 

And maybe he doesn’t fancy Dixon. And maybe he’d rather have an experienced football, a much more experienced football player than Ghana. And you’re right, Andy, nil, nil is a very, very good result against a team who are scoring more goals than us and playing better than us. 

But I’m puzzled by what Tim Eroganum has done wrong, that he’s not starting these games. Any ideas? 

Andy: Uh no in all honesty i don’t know maybe maybe i don’t know maybe maybe i mean if you’d have put it open them in uh who’s who’s expense Mangala, Harrison, Doucoure 

George: Two from any, two from three ending 

Andy: Right. 

George: He’s a better player than both. Well, for my money, he’s a better player than all three of them. 

Andy: Right. 

George: I can see what’s happening with Mangala and it’s impressive. He is, you know, he is a good pastor of the ball. He’s not a defensive player. He’s not, you know, he’s not going to win 50-50s, which I presume is why IGG comes on, because he does win 50-50s. 

George: Paul, any ideas on Mr Tim? 

Paul: I think it goes back to a point that we often make that Dyche’s philosophy and footballing philosophy is, if you don’t concede, you can’t lose a game. And, you know, we don’t do it particularly well at times, and we haven’t done it particularly well at times this season. 

But he always sets up in the most defensive manner he possibly can, in the hope that we won’t concede, and okay, yesterday we didn’t concede. And that’s just the way that he plays football, or he manages a football team. 

Sorry, it’s massively frustrating, horrible to watch. Doesn’t represent the Everton that I want to watch. But he is the manager, and he’s doing what he does. Do I think it’s good enough? No. Do I think he’s technically or tactically good enough still to be a Premier League manager? 

No. But it’s not my decision, and there’s nobody at the club that’s going to make that decision whilst we remain competitive in terms of being in the league. Being in the league, exactly. 

George: Let me ask you Paul, because, you know, you have been the chairman of a board or one or two, and although Andy’s held higher positions than I am, neither me nor Andy have ever been in that position. If you were in that position tomorrow, given that Dyche might well keep us in the league and his contract comes to an end at the end of this season, is that right? 

Paul: Yeah. 

George: Would you bin him now to replace him with someone you thought would be more expensive? Or would you wait and let him do the job so you don’t pay the compensation, you don’t pay the sacking money, you don’t lose five million to the club because you have to pay out his contract? 

George: What would you do? 

Paul: It’s a really, really good question. And looking at the fixture list coming up, I think we’ve probably. He’s probably bought some, we’re unbeaten in three games, five, five points in three games, so he’s probably bought himself some time. 

And I think it laughably, if I was chairman of Everton Football Club, that’s where I would be at this moment in time. I would be concerned that we’re not playing attractive football because it always wants us to play attractive football. 

But if I’m just being purely pragmatic from a we’ve got to stay in the Premier League perspective, which is, I think, where you have to start. At this moment in time, he keeps the job. If we hadn’t gone in this little mini run of three games where we haven’t lost the game, I think I would feel very differently about it. 

But the results are such that we’re OK, not by a massive margin, but we’re out of the bottom three. And it looks as if there’s a number of teams below us who are struggling at least as much as we are, if not worse. 

And he’s probably pretty safe at this moment in time. I think if we get to December and we’re. Sort of hovering around the relegation spots and December is a terrible month for us in terms of, you know, the games that we’ve got to play. 

If you look at the fixture list, you’d start getting very I think you’d start you’d start to become concerned again. And I suspect that if it was me, I’d be saying I’m going to I’m going to give you till till the beginning of December and I’m going to see where we’re where we are then. 

And if I have to make a decision, I’ll make a decision then. And. Which would do one or two, two things, hopefully, if. If we’re in a relegation spot or very close to it going into December, I think I would say. 

I’d bring a new manager in and I’d bring a new manager in for two reasons, and that’s three reasons, one, obviously to remove Dyche; two Because it might just give us that new manager bounce with the difficult fixtures that we’ve got in December and three, it would be preparation for whatever business we can do in the January January transfer window. 

So I think the critical period for Dyche is not isn’t between now and the end of November, not that we play your number. 

George: United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea. 

Paul: Yeah, not that we play a huge number of games between now and then, because I think there’s two international breaks to come, isn’t there? Obviously, we’re in one. 

George: now. I hope so, because doesn’t that mean Branthwaite will get fit? 

Paul: Yeah, the next isn’t the next game at Ipswich. Yeah, 16. Yeah. So we’ve got nine days between now and the next game. At 19th there’s an Ipswich. So we’ve got 13 days. Right. We’ve got two weeks. But yeah, that would be my answer, George. 

George: Right? No, fair enough. 

Paul: But let’s see where we are at the end of November, and I wouldn’t make any changes unless we got completely cut off between now and the end of November. So if we lost, if you know, if we lost the next four games and found ourselves in the bottom three, then you have 

Andy: the next four games Ipswich away 

Paul: Yeah. 

Andy: Then followed by Fulham. 

Paul: Yeah. 

Andy: and then Southampton and West Ham away. 

George: No, give me that. 

Andy: That takes us to the middle of November, well, takes us to the next international break. 

Paul: Yeah. Yeah. And that would also mean that we’re nearly a third of the way through the season because we then played 11 games. And I think that I think that’s enough to say whether he stays or not, because with the teams that we’ve got to play in December, how many points are we going to gain from those games, we might go into the new year on a very low total if we don’t get a lot, you know, 

Paul: a number of points in the next four games. 

Andy: Yeah, December looks really ugly, doesn’t it? 

George: No, I think the players will be looking forward to December more than they are. 

Andy: from a fan’s perspective it looks oddly. Yeah. 

George: But, you know, we don’t play the games. They do. I bet the players are going, come on. We’ll get a point out of Arsenal. We should have stuffed Chelsea last year. You know, I don’t know. Did we beat Liverpool at Goodison last year? 

George: Can’t remember. We did. I think DCL buried Edward at the back post. 

Paul: Sorry, I’m going to blame my stroke for not being able to remember because I genuinely can’t. 

Andy: Yeah, it was Tarkowski’s coaching, wasn’t it? 

Paul: Yes. 

Andy: Just get up there then, you had it. 

George: I’m. 

You know, it’s a different issue, but I think the players will go, now, come on, you know. I bet they look at… 

Andy: Please, no bets angry. 

George: So, that’s in a way, West Ham away, Brentford, and Fulham at Goodison, there’s no gimmes there, it’s just hard, hard graft. And somehow, if you’re playing Arsenal at the Emirates, nobody expects anything. 

And I wonder, I mean, I don’t know, because I’ve never played at that level or anything like that level, but I wonder if you’re going to go, so what’s the odds I can relax here? 

Paul: So how many points do you think we need now to the next four games? 

George: Need 12 

Andy: Yeah, we need 12. How many do you think we’ll realistically get out of the next four games? You would hope. 

George: them away. 

Andy: them away well all right if you take if you take a point from your away games 

George: I’m afraid to say I’ve settled for that, Andy. 

Paul: So we’d be on 11 points after 11 games. 

Andy: Yeah. 

George: That sounds like Dyche’s management style to you. 

Andy: Points again which after 38 games would give us 38 points and likelihood of being in the division. That might be the way he’s looking at it. 

Paul: but then extrapolate that forward into December and I get what you’re saying George about it from a player’s perspective they look forward to the challenge of all of these games. How many points do we get in December from those four or five games? 

Andy: 15. 

See you, see you now. 

George: And that means we’re third. 

Paul: Oh, but, you know, seriously, those next five games then, in December, mean that we’ll have played 16 games by the end of December, 16 league games. So we’re almost halfway through the season. How many points are we going to be on if we pick up six points out of the next four games? 

Andy: Yeah. 

Paul: Going to be on 11. How many points are we going to be on on December the 26th? 

Andy: Right, so hang on, let me just look at these fixtures again. So December comprises United at Old Trafford, Wolves and Liverpool and Goodison. 

George: 3 

Andy: Arsenal away, Chelsea at home and City away on Boxing Day and we finished a year at home against Forest. 

Paul: Yeah. So just going up to the city game on Boxing Day, which would then mean that we’ve played 16 games. How many points are we going to be on? According to the belief that we get six points at the next four games, we’re going to be on 11 points from 11 games. 

How many points are we going to be on after 16 games? Because this goes back to your question, George, about what do you do now about the manager? Yes, of course. 

George: Yes, of course. 

Paul: you’re sitting around the boardroom, if Talking the Blues is the boardroom, this is the discussion that you’re having. 

Andy: Well, if you’re looking at the form book, you’d probably say four points. Which would be hopeful, you know, a point at Old Trafford, beat wolves. And then the form book would suggest losses to Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and City. 

Paul: Yeah. I mean, wolves are looking terrible, aren’t they? They got hammered yesterday. 

Andy: So, if you took those, if you took the points at Old Trafford and three against losses for then anything from the other floor would be a bonus if so, potentially then eight points would be a tremendous result. 

George: Well, if this is the boardroom of Talking the Blues, I’m interested to know which one of us is responsible as the director of football to put in front of the other two, his suggestions for who replaces this man. 

Paul: Thank you. I made it pretty clear a couple of weeks ago that it would be David Moyes if it was my choice. 

George: That’s why you’re not the director of football. 

Andy: That’s exactly it. 

Paul: hahaha 

George: I’m the director of football and I’m going to Carlo Ancelotti. 

Andy: You seriously think Carlo’s going to come back from Real Madrid? 

George: He got beat by Lyon the other day. They’re on the skids man 

Andy: All right 

George: I have no idea. I mean, this is why I’m a fan, because I can’t take that kind of responsibility. I just don’t know how it works. And I suppose the other thing about being a fan is that when somebody else does take that responsibility, you then go, nah, you shouldn’t have done that and carp, carp, carp from the sidelines. 

Well, you know, I was thinking the other day about when I really used to go to the match a lot, how much a part of the week, a part, the part of the week, those 90 minutes are a chance for you to unload the tensions of the week by screaming at the likes of Pawson and screaming with joy when they play well and score goals and save penalties and things. 

But the whole cathartic experience of unloading your emotions on football or through football rather, I think. And I’m sure that still applies to the fans. Well, I know it applies because, you know, I get told to shut up because I’m screaming at the television. 

Paul: I think it applies as much today as it did 40-50 years ago. 

George: That’s a constant, isn’t it, of being a football fan. 

Paul: Yeah. And that’s why the game is so popular and why we all care about it so much because it does have that, it is so important and it’s important for those reasons. I mean, yes, it’s important for other reasons, like, you know, it should be entertaining and we should all marvel like we do in other sports at the technical skills and the fitness of the players and stuff like that. 

But ultimately, I think football’s attraction is two things, isn’t it? It’s that release thing that you’re talking about, George, but also it’s, you know, human beings at the end of the day where a species that is driven to be part of something, to be part of a team, to be part of something that’s greater than just ourselves. 

And it is that unifying factor, that unity that you get when you go to the game and you stand amongst your fellow fans. 

George: Yeah. 

Paul: done that, you know, that absolute thrill, that shiver that goes through your spine when, you know, a Goodison, when Z-Cars starts and that, that, that just like, goes through it. If you’re ever to ask me, and I know nobody has, but I’m going to tell you anyway, if you’re ever to ask me, what is the single point about, that and represents you being an Evertonian and why it’s important to you. 

It is that moment that the silence and then that guttural roar that comes as the team comes out as a Goodison. And, you know, there’s almost, there’s almost no feeling in the world like that. I did say almost. 

George: I think what I love about football is exactly that moment when the whole crowd, the Newcastle United fans and the Everton fans are united in hope for a good game. I love that moment and then Craig Pawson comes out and you go, oh no chance. 

Andy: Yeah, but conversely, the other thing, when both sets of fans in the ground are on the same page with one another, is when they announce that the referee is Craig Parson, and 40,000 people boo. That’s the one that always tickles me, that they announce the referee and everybody boos. 

Andy: He knows he’s on a high edge of nothing. You know, you were saying before we hankered for yesteryear, but do you ever recall Roger Kirkpatrick being booed? 

George: Yes, no, I don’t. He was lovely. 

Andy: There you go. There was a referee who kind of embodied what the fans wanted to enjoy what he was doing and what he was watching and what he was a part of. And he was never the centre of attention. Everybody knew him because he always had a smile on his face. 

I can’t think of a bad decision that he gave. I mean it’s a long time ago obviously but and I suppose if we were watching all these games again on TV and running VAR on it, no doubt they’d find things. 

But he was a guy who embodied the pleasure of football. He refereed football with a smile on his face and I think the players responded in kind back in the day. I’d love to know what the reaction was in the respective camps when they learned during the week that Pawson was going to be refereeing. 

George: Oh, are the referees just don’t we know who’s reffing the street smash here? 

Andy: Not yet. 

George: Oh, right. I didn’t know that. 

Andy: and probably get named on Wednesday or Thursday, the day before. 

George: So the ref himself doesn’t know. 

Andy: Well, yeah, they’ll know three or four days in advance, so they can make the travel arrangements. 

Paul: 

pretty sure they know that they’ll have an idea, but not publicly. I mean, it’s an interesting topic. I never had anybody really talk about it, but referees that you liked. For me, the one referee that I would always refer back to as an example of a great, great referee was Jack Taylor. 

George: Yeah. 

Andy: Yeah. 

Paul: And he refereed with a smile on his face. 

Andy: I don’t recall many smiles. I know he was firm and when he made the decision, that was it. I don’t recall Jack Taylor smiling very much. He struck me as an old school teacher. 

George: That’s the school teacher, Andy. 

Andy: Well, that’s why that’s why it came across them. 

Paul: He was an authoritarian, it was his 74 World Cup final, wasn’t he? He had two penalties in the first 30 minutes. But he was a great referee, whether he smiled or not, maybe my memory is playing up, but he had an authority about him and everybody respected him. 

And it’s the same, isn’t it? In different sports, you always have referees or umpires that the players themselves respect. If you look at cricket, for example, the best umpires have great relationships with the players, even though they’re from different generations. 

Most of them obviously are former players, which is something that’s different about football in the sense that former players don’t become referees. 

George: More is the pity. 

Paul: you know, it’s a topic in itself. But yeah, yeah, interesting. 

George: Who was, it is a quiz to maybe end the podcast with. Who was that referee, do you remember the Derby match when Tony Hibbert got sent off? Because Gerard went up to the ref and went, oi, you booked him before you should be sending him off for that. 

Andy: Was that Clatterbridge? 

Paul: Yes, Mark Clatterbridge, mate. 

George: Well done, everybody. 

Andy: I was going to say, you’ve got to get the bleep machine back here. Sorry. Another prize. 

Paul: Yeah, I mean, he’s not he’s not the most hated referee, as ever. 

Andy: Bye! 

George: I was just running, running through my memory of, you know, like you do of record incidents and him and that Clive Thomas guy. Just moments when you, when, you know, the one I was saying before about releasing tension, when you really screamed your head off, because, because of injustice and it was what you were saying about, you know, how can you possibly, you know, all the football managers always, 

always say, all of them, all we want is consistency. If Tarkowski gives away a penalty because he throws a guy, you cannot then allow Van Dyke to foul somebody on the grounds that the guy wouldn’t have reached the ball. 

What’s that saying? I mean, it’s just, I can understand why football managers would tear what air they’ve got out when that kind of thing happens. What’s the Crystal Palace manager supposed to make of a comment like that? 

It’s just preposterous and ridiculous. When it was just a referee doing it, then you can go human error. What can you do? But now there’s two guys with three or four guys in a truck with a load of toys and they still come up with ridiculous decisions. 

So why have them? 

Andy: Yeah, the championship leagues one and two survive perfectly well without VAR. 

George: Well, when they give me the regulators job, the first thing I’m going to do is plebiscite every fan in the country and go, do you want VAR or don’t you? And that will be the end of VAR. 

Yeah. Yeah. Never mind. 

Paul: Are you in or out? 

George: Are you offside or not? 

Paul: All right, I’m going to finish on this last point. 

Andy: I’ve got I’ve got somebody to I want to mention as well. Go on. I’ve mentioned in the past, this is a shout out for a listener, to be fair. I’ve mentioned Graham the truck driver previously. Yeah. Well, Graham the truck driver is currently in the process of moving house. 

And he’s downsizing a little bit. So he’s got some stuff he needs to get rid of. Well, you can’t just go and take it to the tip these days in a van because blah, blah, blah, you have to get a permit. 

So Graham the other day applied for a permit to take a van full of stuff to the tip. And he’s talking to the girl who’s issuing the permits. And the girl’s a scouser. So Graham asked him as he always does, are you red or a blue? 

And she quite indignantly said I am a blue. To which he said, Oh, great. He said, I don’t suppose you listen to a podcast, do you? She said, I listened to Talking the Blues. So this is a shout out for Nikki Thompson. 

And Nikki Nikki’s claim to fame because she’s on the dust. She’s involved in emptying the bins at Goodison. 

George: Brilliant, Andrew. 

Andy: Thanks for listening, Nicky, and thanks for giving Graham his permit to the tip. 

Paul: He couldn’t get down to Goodison and tip out Sean Dyche could he? 

Andy: I was going to say you never know when the Friedkins come in they might need a full skip for the rubbish that’s got to be cleared out. 

George: Oof. What were you going to say, Paul? 

Paul: That’s a great story. So, yesterday was the eighth time that Pawson has refereed us, and it’s the first of those eight games that we’ve gained a point. 

Andy: We lost all of them. 

Paul: We lost all seven beforehand. 

George: He literally hears that. 

Andy: You should have kept that one quiet. He’ll be making a mental note of that for the next time he gets our game. 

Paul: Wow. 

Andy: really Craig? Did you ask? 

Paul: just a supplementary final point. Did you notice that tweet that I think I shared it with you a couple of days ago about so he’s never sent anybody off from Arsenal, Liverpool, City, Chelsea and United. 

Andy: You 

Paul: but you sent off five Evertonians, or five players. 

George: I think he’s involved with a betting company. I think he goes, I’ll bet you Everton come down to 10 men and lose this game. He’s making a quiet fortune on the side. Sorry Craig, I don’t mean to treat you as bad to him. 

Paul: You’ve got to give your lawyers a quick call after that on George. 

George: It was a joke, Craig. Joke, you know, like you’re a reffing. 

Paul: All right, let’s close up quickly now before George says anything else. 

George: Fair enough. 

Paul: All right guys, I fully enjoyed that. It was far more enjoyable than the match. 

Andy: or too idealistic where the football’s concerned. You’ve just got to set where we are at the moment. 

Paul: No, no, no, no, no, no, Andy. 

Andy: That’s only at the moment. 

George: No good for you, Paul. It’s no good for you. It’s no good for you. 

Paul: Absolutely not. You never, ever, ever accept where you are if where you are isn’t where you want to be. 

Andy: Oh, I didn’t say it’s where I want to be, I’m just… No, no. 

Paul: No, no, you said you have to accept your words where you have to accept where we are. And I’m saying if it’s not where you want to be, you don’t have to accept it. 

Andy: Go on then. 

George: I’ll be the ref on this one. I’m sending you off, Andy. 

Andy: Oh Craig… Craig, lads! Give us a break, Craig! 

Paul: She’s just giving us a point. What more do you want? 

Andy: Yeah. 

Paul: Yeah. All right, guys. Lovely speaking to you as ever. And that was a great story, Andy. I love the fact that two random blues end up both listening to Talking the Blues. What were the chances of that? 

All right. Well, we’ll speak again next week. We won’t have a game to speak about, but I’m sure we’ll find something to talk about in the intervening period. So thanks everybody for listening. George and Andy, thank you both very much. 

And it is a good week for everybody.