Paul: Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, depending upon where in the world you are, and what time of the day you’re listening to this episode of Talking the Blues and post Christmas, post new year in fact, what am I talking about? sort of not quite sure what days are!

The first of 2025 and George and Andy, how are you both? 

George: I’d be better if I hadn’t watched that yesterday. 

Paul: What exactly did you watch yesterday, George?

Andy: Utter rubbish. 

George:Go ahead Andy. 

Andy:Utter rubbish, and I want to start, I mean, every Evertonian, you know, I picture those guys that went all the way to the south coast, I really do. 

Because they must have had one miserable afternoon at the game and one miserable journey home. But I want to, you know, we all, everyone who watched it, everyone who’s read the newspaper reports along will know that it was utterly abject from an Evertonian’s point of view. 

But I want to start with something that I got sent last night by a really good Evertonian, season ticket holder, as rabid of blue as you could come across. And he sent me this message and he said “I can’t carry on with it anymore, Andy, just a disgrace. 

I don’t even recognise this anymore, mate. Entirely predictable, his entire game plan is trying not to concede. He gets paid five million a year to produce this. I won’t be returning while he’s in charge.” 

And I think, word for word, that needs to be sent to Mr Friedkin because whilst there will be some Evertonians who, incredibly, still have some faith in Sean Dyche and are scared of making another change because of this better the devil you know than the devil you don’t know, thinking that pervades some people. 

The vast majority of Evertonians, surely to goodness, are now sick to the back teeth of watching our club play utterly dreadful, dismal, boring, negative football. But for Jordan Pickford yesterday, I dread to think what that scoreline could have been. 

Not that Bournemouth made dozens of great chances, but they were head and shoulders the better football team after about the first 10 minutes. And I just, I cannot believe that anybody seriously has got any faith now that Sean Dyche can continue to be the manager of Everton Football Club because that performance yesterday and he sets them up, he picks the side, you know, and you can be critical of one or two of the players that he continues to pick if you like. 

You know, people have said he’s got his favourites and he continues to stick with them and he’s stubborn, he’s pigheaded, he won’t change, he won’t experiment. But he picks them and he sets them up and God only knows how he tells them to play because I couldn’t see anything in that game after about the first, maybe the first 10 minutes that offered any encouragement whatsoever to Evertonians around the world thinking that this club is actually coming out of the period that we hoped it was coming out of the Moshiri years with any plan to go forward. 

Certainly under this manager there is no plan to go forward. The plan is merely to survive and the way we’re playing at the moment and I hate to say this, but I think survival, it might just be one season too many that we’ve gone into these ridiculous relegation fights because there’s nothing there, there’s no soul, there’s no spark, there’s no get up and go, all the get up and go, get up and bug it off months ago. 

Save Pickford and maybe Tarkowski but the rest of it, it’s limp, it’s aimless, it’s just soul destroying and for me, the Friedkin’s have got to act and they’ve got to act way sooner than later now because this cannot carry on and heaven only knows what the reaction will be of the crowd on Thursday when we take on Peterborough in the FA Cup. 

God forbid if Peterborough came and did a number on us, it’s no longer amusing, it’s way way way beyond the joke. It’s far too serious now. It’s aimless, pointless carrying on with this manager in situ. 

They’ve got to make a change and they’ve got to make it fast. 

Paul: That was good. George, what are your thoughts?

George: He’s my brother. 

Andy: I’m not that heavy. 

George: You’re heavier than me, even after the Christmas I’ve had. 

Oh dear, there’s nothing to add to that. I don’t think, I mean, I can’t add, I can’t add anything to that. It was sad to watch Branthwaite lump it up, you know, one of the few people who can pass, likes to pass, Armstrong had 10 minutes that was encouraging, but Andy’s right. 

And, you know, you can only imagine that Peterborough are going, well, this stock can’t score a goal. So we’ll just go and get one and that’ll be that. And what were your thoughts, Paul? Because Andy, I was covered, what I thought. 

Paul: How long have we got? So many different thoughts, actually, and obviously thoughts in terms of the match itself and in terms of a Dyche’s impact on the team, the team itself. And then obviously the wider context of, first of all, can we stay in the Premier League this season? 

And then beyond that, what do the Friedkins do? So almost every decision is based on, we can go one of two ways here. We can look at short term decisions, which might satisfy some of us. Or we can look perhaps more strategically. 

And I have to state, just stating the obvious, I’m not advocating at all for keeping Dyche for a moment longer than he needs to be here. What I’m saying is, and I’ll expand upon this, I think, as we go through the podcast, I think the Friedkins are intelligent enough to not make a decision on that without knowing what the outcome of that decision is. 

So while we the fans naturally will want to change and you know there is the strongest absolutely the strongest case for change given what Dyche has turned a pretty average Everton team into and you know he’s not added anything to what this team is capable of in fact he’s taken much away from what individual players and what collectively the team is capable of by virtue of his tactics.

But the question with change and this may sound a bit strange coming for me because I think most people think I am you know a big advocate for change and normally I am the question about changes is that you know what you have to know what you’re changing into in order to confidently execute a change and my view is that I’m pretty sure that the, 

Well, I’m not pretty sure, I’m certain that the Friedkins know that Sean Dyche is not the solution that Everton require, either today or any time in the future. You know, he’s a, he’s a busted flush. He wasn’t a great hand to start with. 

Although, he did very well in exceptional circumstances last year, which is, you know, probably, if you’re going to write a CV for him, or if you’re going to write a, you know, some some form of valediction, sort of comments about him, you would always say that in a crisis, he can deliver. 

The problem we’ve got now is that we’ve gone beyond the crisis. And he’s, he’s just at a point where his limitations are such that with the people that he’s got available to him, and with the competition, such as it is across the Premier League, that he can no longer compete. 

And I think that the Friedkins are absolutely 100%, in fact, I know that the Friedkins are 100% aware of this. The question is, what do you do about it? And we’re all clamouring and, you know, the fan bases or clamouring for, let’s do it now. 

Let’s get rid of him. You know, I don’t know how many DMs I’ve had in the last week or so, but surely they’ve got to do it now. Surely they’ve got to do it before the Bournemouth game?. Surely they have to do it in the next 10 days, because you know, we don’t have a league game for a couple of weeks? 

The question is, what do you go on to, if you make that decision? And in Modern Football, and Andy, this is something that you touched upon the other day in one of our WhatsApp discussions. The problem with Modern Football is that when you fire a manager, you’re not only firing a manager, but you’re firing a whole team. 

So again, I’m not advocating for keeping Woan or Stone, not at all. But the point is, when you recruit a new manager, you can also recruit a new team. And all of that team has to be available at the time that you recruit the new manager. 

Otherwise, in the modern game, it doesn’t work. Particularly when we have a totally ineffective director of football. We can argue all the reasons why our director of football is ineffective. Is it the club? 

Is it the owners? Is it him himself? But the fact is, he is ineffective, and I doubt he’s going to be any more effective under the Friedkins. The Friedkins clearly know that they need to get rid of Dyche. 

But do they know a), whom they want to bring in, and who is a collective, whom in terms of, you know, the whole team, because everybody brings a team with them these days. And b), is that team available now? 

And the balance, I think the balance that they’re trying to make is, yes, we want to do this as quickly as we possibly can, because it gives us more time or it gives the new management team more time to pull the club out of the potential danger that we’re in. 

And that danger gets bigger and bigger every game that we play under Dyche. And as against if the right people or the people whom we think are the right people are not currently available, do we then go for like our second or third choice, which is, you know, something that Everton have done for years and years and years. 

They’ve walked, you know, under Moshiri, we wanted managers, he’s identified managers, some of whom have been in the Hollywood brackets, as he called it, only for those managers not to come to Everton, not to want to come to Everton. 

Therefore, we’ve taken the second or third choice. And that’s also true of players that we’ve tried to recruit in the transfer window. And I just wonder whether the Friedkins aren’t in a similar position here whereby perhaps the people they want to bring in either aren’t available, or b), have no desire to make themselves available at this particular moment in time. 

Because either they’re doing something else, which is more interesting, or because they actually just want to see what happens at Everton, albeit under a new ownership and going into a new stadium, there’s two big ticks in the box. 

And as a result, we’re stuck with Dyche. The problem with that course is that time is running be it our competitors. If they win a game, you know, that’s a massive competitive advantage against everything you’ve got no opportunities to win a game because if we don’t set out to score a goal, we can’t win a game anyway. 

And b) there’s no evidence at all that Dyche is going to change tactics or the evidence they’re going to perform any better in the next, I don’t know, half a dozen Premier League games as they have done at any point through the season. 

So it’s a real quandary, it’s real, there’s a real question mark and it’s a real testing point, I think, for the Friedkins. And I think what I would say, and this is something I’ve not said for many, many years, is I think we have to give this new management team, this new ownership team, just a little bit of time to work out all of what I’ve just said, even if We can see the risks of not doing anything, becoming greater and greater as each week goes by.

 Sorry, that was a very lengthy explanation, but I thought it was worth saying in full. 

George: Yeah, very nicely argued. Don’t agree. I’m with my brother, Paul. 

I don’t agree because they’ve had plenty of time. You may well be right in the detail of it. They’ve earmarked Jim, Joe and Jane and they’re not available or they don’t want to be available or they fear that they’re going to drop anyway or the job is impossible. 

But they’ve had plenty of time to do this and there are alternatives. You know, Everton themselves have employed with some limited success a four game interim manager just to deal with an immediate crisis when Duncan Ferguson took over. 

It’s not an unknown situation. And if the Friedkins, well, two things, one, they should have had this sorted. If they’ve been watching Everton for as long as they must have been, they must have been. They must have felt what we all feel is that Dyche’s brand of football is not worth watching, not worth paying to watch and not going to solve any problem whatsoever. 

So for me, having got rid of Moshiri, the first thing they should have done is let us know what their plans were for him. Now, I’m not going to go in. You know, we can’t go into whether that’s a good thing to do business wise, but they’re not talking to us and you personally and quite a few other people as well, including me and Andy, have gone, why is the club not talking to us? 

Well, that’s not changed. And I wish it had. But frankly, The despair, you know, the thing that Andy read out from the season ticket older guy, that must be everywhere. And the despair is such that they have to act. 

And if they can’t get whoever it is they want at the moment, they should take a risk for goodness sake and go, right, we’re going to give this to somebody. And we’re going to say like United said we’ve been this Roy, and it’s not, you know, the end of the world, we must have a change. 

The dressing room is stagnant. The stands are stagnant. The club is stagnant. Sorry, thanks ever so much the three of you on your bikes. A dog and two nuns could do better. Sorry, I didn’t mean to be nunist. 

But this just won’t do. And strategically, they should, they should have produced. a solution of some sort by now because yesterday was well just worse than getting beat by Nottingham Forest at a walk in pace. 

Andy: I wholeheartedly agree but for me I echo entirely what our kid just said and we’ve said it previously that during the whole takeover process they’ve had a lot of time to consider obviously the business side of things that’s you know that was preeminent for them but surely somebody within the Friedkin organisation was also looking at what they were you know the immediate issues with what they were about to inherit and whilst Paul you make a very good argument that you know dispensing with Sean Dyche and his team on mass

1. a) would probably be relatively expensive and they might not be able to bring in as you said the people that they would hope to bring in right now then Our Kid’s right they’ve got to take a risk if they don’t do anything and it carries on as we are now with all it needs is for one of Wolves and Ipswich to go on a little bit of a run and we’re back down in the bottom three and with the way the team is playing with their inability to score goals at the moment particularly from open play then the threat of relegation is even more realistic than it has been in the previous two or three years when we’ve gone as far as the last day of the season for crying out loud say so they’ve got to be prepared to take a risk and Our Kid’s muted this before and I’m coming round to the point of view now that if they dispense with Sean Dyche, 

Ian Wone and Stones and what have you. If Seamus Coleman has got his badges, okay, we all know Seamus is the club captain, everybody loves him. We’ve known for more than a few weeks that he’s done the rallying cry either before the game or at half time to give the players a kick up the ass or a bit of a meat injection to go out and improve their performance. 

What have they got to lose? And you could say we ever are, who’s going to be his back up team? Well, in any other walk of life, if you can’t bring in the people from outside if you want, then you do your best from within. 

Now we’re a football club, we’ve got coaches at every level, every level from the first team down to, I don’t know, not sure what the younger stage is now, but certainly down to teenagers and under 12s or where have you. Surely to goodness there is enough football nous, if not obviously a Premier League experience, but there’s enough football nous to go onto a training field and work better with the players we’ve got than the current structure is doing, because the current structure is failing miserably, week in, week out, and it doesn’t change anything. 

And how many times have you said this Paul, that only a fool continues to do the same things and expect different results. He does the same things and we don’t get different results. At best we draw and at worst we get embarrassingly beaten. 

So for crying out loud, make a change. Do something radical. If Seamus has got his coaching badges or if there’s anyone in the crew at Everton Football Club who got the coaching badges, give them the gig. 

What’s the worst that can happen? The worst that can happen is it all goes tits up and we get relegated. Yes, that’s not good. Nobody wants that. Nobody in the right mind wants Everton Football Club to be relegated. 

But the way we’re going, the chances are we might get relegated. So give it a go. Do something for heaven’s sake. They cannot expect 36,000 Blues to keep turning up at Goodison and trying to get behind a team that clearly has got no confidence in playing and the plan from the touchline is non-existent. 

We’ve got to do something different. We’ve got to roll the dice. People are going to walk in droves. 

Paul: The Evertonians turning up for a game is probably the least of their concerns at this moment in time, if I’m being brutally honest. 

Andy: And how many are going to turn up next season is probably furthest from their minds because everyone’s getting, people are getting excited about the brand new stadium, which we’ve said before is bricks and mortar. 

That new stadium is not going to win Everton football club any games. We need to start winning games. And the sooner everybody gets their head round that and forgets about bricks and mortar and concentrates on what’s going on on the field, the better. 

Paul: Sorry, I cut across you. No, no, I don’t disagree with them. Well, I disagree with hardly anything, anything that you have just said. And I’m not advocating for Dyche to be here for a moment longer than is necessary. 

What I’m saying is. that people are asking what is the logic behind him not having been fired today, because the evidence for him to be fired based on his performance, based on his demeanor, based on his body language, based on the actual words that he’s saying based on his management of players based on his tactical abilities, which are non existent based on his strategic thinking based on his long term view of where the club is going beyond survival. 

You know, there’s nothing at all in that very long list of things that you would want to see from a manager of any football club, let alone, our beloved Everton, where guys come anywhere close to providing a suitable answer. 

And I think everybody is in total, total, total agreement with that, including myself, you know, whenever I’m not doing a massive about turn here, because I’ve been one of the strongest advocates for tights not being manager of the club for a long time. 

And yeah, what I’m saying is that if we’re looking for reasons why he hasn’t moved, and here’s a possible reason why. Except that I do accept that that doesn’t solve the problem, of course, the problem still exists. 

And, and you know, it is a good question, actually. Well, even if you haven’t got the people that you want to come into the club, ready today, could actually be any worse, if we just got rid of the people who are currently in charge of the club, because probably the answer to that is no. 

It can’t be, you know, if the club ended up, if the team ended up managing itself, if it ended up being managed by Seamus Coleman, and just trying to think who else could possibly manage. Leighton Baines is there. 

Andy: Whoever else is coaching the under 21s and the under 19s and the under whatevers. Would we be in any worse position? I don’t think so. It’s hard to imagine it being worse. Perhaps that is the answer. 

Paul: Because the Friedkins don’t talk, I don’t know what their stance is at this particular moment in time. I understand that they don’t think Dyche is the long-term solution. But I don’t know what they think is the current and increasingly needy short-term solution. 

If we want to be critical of the Friedkins at this particular moment in time, And I don’t really want for a fan base to turn against somebody whose organization has just come in and solved our financial problems, and is that they need to communicate more. 

They need to tell us what’s going on, what their thought process is. If they are prepared to back Dyche, then tell us, tell us that they see Dyche as somebody who can see the club through the season without getting relegated. 

If that’s what they believe, then tell us. If they believe that Dyche is not the solution, then perhaps the solution is to fire him, bring in the interim team, which may be the current people. As you say, Seamus Coleman, you know, we talked previously about Seamus Coleman being a player coach, and somebody like Leighton Baines who, you know, qualified and everything else, then maybe that’s what they need to do. 

Andy: If they did that, if tomorrow morning, they said, Sean, sorry, game’s up, you know, thanks for your efforts, but you’re done. You’re out of here. And then they called in Coleman and Baines and maybe one or two of the other coaching staff and said, right, guys, you’ve got the gig. 

The moves we want to make next summer, you know, for a permanent manager are still ongoing. So you guys have got the gig to the end of the season. At the very, very least that would do, it would give the fan base a little bit of a little bit of a lift, because people are going to go to that game on Thursday against Peterborough, dreading it. 

In all God’s honest truth, I feel that a fair amount of the crowd will be dreading watching that game on Thursday. night, if Sean Dyche is on the bench, is on the touch line. If Seamus Coleman was on the touch line, with Baines beside him, it would give the crowd a lift, I’m sure it would. 

And if the crowd is lifted, then the players are going to be lifted. And it’s important, it’s desperately important that these players who are picked to play on Thursday, get the job done. And if the crowd can help, they will. 

And the biggest thing to get the crowd going, would give them something to have a little bit of faith in, a little bit of hope with. And I think you’ll get bags more faith and hope from the crowd on Thursday, if it was Coleman and Baines on the touch line, rather than Deutsch, Stone and Woan. 

George: I totally agree with that. And I also think, you know, you’ve talked loads of times Paul, about responsibility. they have some sort of responsibility here to react because I think Andy’s right about, oh, I only know from my own heart how I felt watching the match yesterday, how I felt approaching the match, and the fact that I sent a text to the only Cherries fan that I know is a mate of mine and said, 

“I’m sorry about what’s going to happen this afternoon”. Because, you know, he’s going to put his hand in his pocket and pay money to watch it. That’s not right. We’re Evertonians, for crying out loud. 

There has to be something better than this. I understand what you’re saying. And, you know, I doubt the Friedkins are all going, my God, what time he’s Talking to Blues out? But if they do listen to us, I think they will hear a true voice of Evertonians concerned about the moral state of our club, the aesthetic state of our club. 

It’s completely moribund. And Andy is 100% right about the atmosphere. And, you know, you can’t just react to the possibility of an atmosphere. But the fact that the arrival of Seamus and someone different, but, you know, I don’t believe Seamus Coleman is any less capable of organising a football team than Sean Dyche, for f**k’s sake. 

Sorry about the language. I’m at the end of my rope. I resent the fact that I hope we’ll play well against Bournemouth, when I know we won’t. I can’t deal with this anymore. I understand why that guy said what he said to you, Andy. 

And I do believe that the Friedkins don’t owe me anything at all. But they owe the fan base, the people who really put their hands in their pockets, because I’m a long way from doing that now. But I have done an passed up into Bournemouth and you know those kind of gigs where you make a big big long effort and then you watch that….. Jesus Christ no no no no. 

Andy: Peterborough is a line in the sand and if they don’t mark it well I’ll watch because I always watch but with fading belief really. Yeah I mean I sent you guys that little video clip last night from the film Gladiator where Maximus is about to go into the arena and he’s talking to Proximo and I parodied him so when I said as Russell Crowe goes up the steps he turns round to Oliver Reed and he says John Moore’s had a dream of ever done freaking this is not it this is not it and what we are watching at the moment is a million light years from the Everton Football Club that Everton Football Club should be. 

So I hope Mr Friedkin and his staff do listen to us and take on board that, you know, whilst we might not speak for 100% of the fanbase, I truly believe we’re speaking for a vast majority of the fanbase when we say that we are sick and tired of watching drops and knowing, worst of all, knowing, as you’ve just said, Arcade, that we’re going to watch drops. 

That’s what really hurts. You know, the whole motor of professional football and people like us is hope. Every week you go, yeah, come on, come on, come on. I don’t believe Everton fans are doing that these days. 

I find it hard to believe and I respect them if they are. But, you know, go on Paul, your turn. 

Paul: And the sad reality of the situation is that Football Club owners don’t see football through the eyes or the same lens as football fans. 

Soon it will become a cooperative then, the better. Well, yeah. We’ve watched that thing before as well. We have, yeah. But unless we can come up, I’m sorry, I’m not being argumentative just for the sake of being argumentative. 

I’m just being, I’m stripping out the emotion of me being an Evertonian, and a lifelong Evertonian, an Evertonian until the day I die, with the harsh reality of things. And I think that bringing that reality adds something to the discussion. 

And they haven’t invested 600 million or more. They haven’t invested their reputation as good business people, as good managers of businesses in something that they are going to allow to fail within a very short period of time of them actually taking charge of that business. 

I think we just have to accept that. We might not agree with what they end up doing, but I think we have to accept that that’s what they come into this with. Why have they bought Everton Football Club when others wouldn’t? 

Although the only people at Moshiri could attract were people who frankly didn’t have them and were just chances and were there for their own purposes as against the purposes of Everton Football Club. 

They’ve done so because they see… a medium to long term opportunity to increase their own wealth and probably to enhance their global reputation as good business people and as entrepreneurs. And I can’t for a second believe that they won’t do absolutely everything that they believe they have to do in order to, a), to protect that reputation, and b), in the short term, to protect Everton’s status as a Premier League club. 

Because the difference between Everton going into Bramley-Moore next season as a Premier League club, even if we finish 17th this season, and going into Bramley-Moore next season as a championship club is just so huge. 

And they know that. They absolutely know it. So you’ve then got to say, well, okay, if you know that, what is it that you’re doing about the situation that will make the chances of the thing that you fear most happening less. 

And our view as emotional supporters, and I don’t mean that in a disparaging sense, I mean, actually, in a very positive sense, because we absolutely care about our football club more than any owner ever will do, is that they need to make a change and they need to make a change now. 

Their argument is, one would hope, cold, rational business people and something that we’ve not had at Everton for many, many years, because virtually every strategic decision has been made on an emotional basis or on an unintelligent basis, in the case of Moshiri, is to make, you know, an instant change. 

How many times did Moshiri make changes? And, you know, people could look, point at me and others and say, well, Moshiri made changes on the basis of, you know, the arguments that you made and the protests that you made.  

made in terms about the way that club club has run. And there’s an honest truth about that. I think with the frequency something slightly different here, I don’t think that they necessarily will take that into account. 

And I think that, you know, if you look at the evidence of what’s happened at Roma, is that they’ve made changes when they felt it necessary to make changes. And you could argue about whether that’s right or wrong. 

And I mean, that’s a, but that’s a completely different argument. And they’ve made decisions when they’ve made changes that have been massively unpopular with the Roma fans, you know, if you go on to like the Roma forums, or if you talk to any Roma fans, or any Roma journalists, they’re grateful for what the frequency brought in terms of, you know, the financial backing and what they’ve done financially for the club in terms of setting it up as a stable business. 

But there’s not that many that are that positive about their ability to run football because quite often you hear, well, you know, nothing about football. And so the idea that the free cans come in and they suddenly do what we as the Everton fanbase want them to do, just because it’s popular, I’m afraid, isn’t going to happen. 

Now, that doesn’t stop the argument about what is the right thing to do. It’s just saying that they’re not going to do popular stuff because they’ve got a different view or they may have a different view. 

They have a different strategy, perhaps. And the strategy might be that Dyche for all of his limitations, and they may think that Dyche is completely not an idiot. But unless they’ve got a better alternative and that better alternative can start tomorrow, they’re not going to do anything about it. 

Other than perhaps sit down with Dyche and say, what is it that we can do with you now that will help you in the very short term? Because the other point, I think, to me is to look at Dyche. You know, this is a man that’s built a career on the basis of bluff and bluster about how good he is, what he’s achieved with all of the limitations that have been imposed upon him. 

Burnley, a small club, limited ambitions, had a little bit of money and he did okay for a period and then they didn’t do quite so well and he got fired. Everything, big club, big ambitions, certainly from the fan base, but very limited resources, very difficult circumstances given the ownership and given all of the problems that we have with the Premier League. 

An ideal scenario for the Dyche style of bluff and bluster. I can get you through all of this. blah, blah, blah, blah. We’re hearing nothing like that, at this current moment in time, from Dyche. And that tells me that Dyche knows that he’s on his way out. 

George: Yes, I agree with that. Go on, sorry, Paul.

Paul:  Dyche is not talking at all about the future. He’s hardly even talking about the present. I mean, you know, what he’s, what he said in his pre-match interviews and his post-match interviews, you know, those comments that he made yesterday about, well, you know, our record isn’t that bad if you take into account the games that we might have won, but didn’t win. 

I mean, who says something like that? A madman. That’s a man under extreme pressure who knows that he hasn’t got long left in the games. So whilst it might sound to people who are listening to this I’m arguing two entirely different and contrary points. 

I’m not. What I’m saying is that the Friedkins will move when they believe it’s the right time to move, which may be different from what we believe as fans. But if you need some support or if you need some comfort in the idea that Dyche is going, just look at Dyche. 

You know, his body language is terrible, very different from how he’s presented himself in the past. His demeanor is appalling. All that self confidence has gone. He’s blaming other people. He’s not addressing any of the issues which he brings to the club himself. 

And he’s now got to the point where he started blaming players. You know that in any management or leadership position, when the game is over, when you start blaming the people below you. And that’s where we are with Dyche. 

And, you know, I’m not a Warren Buffett. I don’t know. But you don’t need to be to understand that. And whilst the Friedkins might be somewhat closer to being a Warren Buffett than I am, they understand that as well. 

And what I’m trying to present is a logical argument that says, yes, it’s really distressing to see Everton play football in the manner in which we’re playing. It’s really distressing to see the results, really distressing to see teams that, you know, we should be beating comfortably week in week out. 

And a) beating us and b) having a, you know, a pathway that looks far more far better than ours. But I think you’ve got to have faith in the people who are coming into the club, that they will turn this around because they’ve made the investments and they’ve put their reputation on the line. 

That doesn’t mean to say there’s a guarantee that they’ll do it. I’m just saying that the balance of probability is that they will. 

George: Yeah. Let’s hope you’re absolutely right. But at the same time, I don’t think you can deny and yourself probably the fact that this is the most frustrating stage, even in the last 30 years since we won a trophy, this is the bottom of it all now. 

I thought we’d reached the bottom when Allardyce arrived. I thought Benitez was a polling idea, Foldy Arms Frank did my head in. But this is worse than anything. And I understand what you’re saying, Paul. 

I still don’t agree with you. I think there are alternative solutions. You may not be able to bring in the person or the people, the team that you want at the moment. Surely they must have spoken to a whole pile of people that they want. 

They must have a big list and they should have had a list of people that if Dyche fails and failing he is, what are we going to do? There are two things going on here. One, they’re doing nothing. Two, they’re not telling us why they’re doing nothing. 

Now correct one or correct the other, preferably both. But don’t just sit there doing nothing and have people like you, spokesman for them, going, be patient. Because being a football sport is not actually about patience. 

It’s about emotion. And we’re all in negative emotions. And I understand, and yes, we’ve been through enough nonsense to go, no, don’t make some bonkers knee-jerk decision. But it should not be a knee-jerk decision. 

It should have been a considered decision as to what we do when Dyche brings this club to complete stagnation. And you’re 100% right about Dyche and his body language. I texted Andy yesterday to say, I’ve just heard what he said, this is a man on the ropes. 

And I kind of feel for him, he’s done his best. It’s not good enough. He must know that. He must know that better than any of us. He’s played football. He must look at Everton, no goals in whatever many games and think, oh my God, he doesn’t have an answer anymore. 

Something, something has to change. Otherwise, we’re going out of this league. Because we’re not going to score enough goals to stay in it. We never looked like scoring a goal yesterday. I totally totally get it from a footballing perspective. 

I mean, yeah. The whole idea that you can go into the game with, and we’ve talked about this before, but the whole idea that you can go into the game with, you know, the only objective, not even the primary objective, the only objective is to keep a clean sheet is just nonsensical. 

You know, even the games that we performed, or that we got decent results in, you know, the three famous draws, and ultimately they were down to the brilliance of Jordan Pickford. Yes, sorry, Paul, I found myself yesterday. 

The only thing I found myself thinking of a positive nature was I hope JP gets a clean sheet because he deserved it. And in the end, he didn’t get beaten by a tremendous finish. But other than that, there was nothing else in the game to me. 

Really wasn’t. And if it wasn’t prepared, we would not be where we are now. Well, no, we would have been out of the league maybe two seasons ago. Yeah. The final Frank season. And interestingly, it hasn’t been picked up much in the media. 

Paul: But did you see Pickford’s reaction as he came off the pitch?

George: No. What was it? 

Paul:He was having a right old go at. He couldn’t see who directly he was having a go at. But whoever was standing in the Everton technical area. 

Andy: Yeah. What one assumes is Dyche and his team. And he was giving them like seven bells. You didn’t need to be the lip reader to figure out what the first three words were. No, he was absolutely livid. 

And you can see it during the game when he gets the ball, he looks up. And even if the objective as per Dyche’s tactics are to hit the ball long, even when you hit the ball long, you’re not going to hit the ball long into an area where whoever the sole attacker is has two or three players around him. 

And there are so many occasions and particularly yesterday in the game where Pickford couldn’t even launch the ball long because whatever he was launching it to just meant that it would give him possession back to Bournemouth. 

Paul: Thanks. So I agree with you, certainly from a footballing point of view. I would say, if you don’t mind my sense here, George, and a couple of people commented, it’s actually great that we can disagree with each other, disagree with each other in public and respectfully. I really am not being a spokesperson for the Friedkins. 

George: No, but you see things from a bigger angle than I do, and you’ve done what they’ve done. You’ve taken over businesses. 

I’ve never done anything like that in my life. But I have been an Evertonian for enough years to want something very, very different to what I’m watching. And I also understand, although I’ve never been at any level as a player, that that phrase, he’s lost the dressing room, that must be the case, especially if what you’re saying about Pickford is correct. 

Paul: George, if you think about it logically, you’re saying what you haven’t been. But you’ve said this to me on many occasions, and, you know, I think it’s true that as an actor, you’re an observer of people. 

And therefore, your observations about everything that surrounds everything football club and all of the individual individuals around medicine, football club, and are coming from a perspective of somebody that has observed people throughout their long and successful careers. 

And secondly, I think is why you can’t, why you find it difficult to accept why the Friedkins haven’t done something. Because I think if you are an observer of people, you find it’s very difficult to understand why somebody hasn’t done something when you want somebody to do something at the time that you want them to do it. 

George: Well, I didn’t have a problem understanding why Benitez and Allardyce and those are the losers that we’ve had. And I understand why Dyche can’t alter the situation. But I’ll go back just two seconds to what I said before. 

There’s two things here. One, either do something or two, tell me why you’re not doing something, but talk to me, please. Yeah, I totally agree with the talk to me, but I don’t understand. In a sport like football, you know, public relations is utterly, utterly vital. 

Get hold of it for goodness sake, and talk to us. Never mind talk to the press, talk to us. Tell us, tell us what you’re thinking. Tell us what you’re hoping. Tell us something. Tell us anything. Don’t leave us in silence to watch more Dyche football. 

It’s not nice. It’s not healthy. Learn from the mistakes of the previous regime who failed to communicate with us on anything. And when they did, they taught nonsense. don’t don’t don’t patronize us talk to us sensibly but you know well then do sorry no no I drew the line at that line just just I don’t wanna I don’t want to hear meaningless platitudes from anybody.

Paul:  I think I think there’s a lot to be said for that from from from both of you and I would agree 100% with that and I think the Friedkin should look at how previous owners including Kenwright but then obviously a machete have acted towards the true custodians of the football club evidence evident supporters and particularly in recent years where we’ve had in in previous years pre Moshiri we had communications but those communications were generally false in the series era, 

We had false communications to begin with them, we had zero communications, going into the Friedkin area. Yeah, and going into the Friedkin area now, we’ve got no communication at all. That, even if it’s not necessarily their normal, normal operating basis or basis upon which they operate, communication now would win them huge favor with Everton fans. 

George: That’s 1000% true. I hope they hear that above everything else, really. So if, you know, if they’re not minded to, I think they are minded to move Dyche, because there’s no case for keeping him actually no case for keeping him. 

But they need to communicate that. Yes. Because you’ve made me think about it, what you said about, you know, my job is to look at people, football players are dead interesting for an actor to study, because they’re so concentrated, that they’re actually they’re very like a cast of actors, you know, you could go and see a play and go Oh, it’s really good, really good. 

And actually, you know, the actors go, it’s a piece of shit. We hate doing it. But we’re professionals. And that’s not for you to know. We will give you the best that we’ve got. And you’re going to come and go, that bloke playing that part knocks himself out. 

He really gave it the bifters. He hated every minute of it. It’s a lousy play. The director doesn’t couldn’t direct a sea to the shore. The costumes don’t fit, you know, all that stuff. That’s what watching everything looks like to me, those players are going as best they can. 

And I have some respect for them through the motions, but cohesively, and for joy, for pleasure, for the aesthetic of it even And, you know, football is an aesthetic experience. We’ve all kicked the ball so well that you go, that was a good pass. 

Blimey, look at that outside of my right foot. That was really nice. We know what that is. And watching those players yesterday, their faces got longer and heavier. And the other interesting thing about yesterday’s match was the Bournemouth manager’s comments who said to his team, be patient. 

This lot will run out of gas and there will be chances late on. 100 percent. They’re not even, you know, Dutch hasn’t even got them fit. Even for me as well, what something’s up yesterday was the Bournemouth fans. 

But when there was a stoppage, when Broja was injured and they were getting DCL ready to come on and the Bournemouth fans were chanting, how would you watch this every week? I mean, that was, that was salt in the open wound that, you know. 

And because every other football team fans will pick up on that and we’re going to get that continuously now until we make a change and it’s that’s embarrassing that you know that for those for the Blues that traveled all the way to Bournemouth yesterday to have that sung at them how do you watch this every week that that’s that was that must have been like a knife through the it really was and again you know you cannot but cannot do anything but applaud those fans who make those journeys week in week out i think most of them are going on a first person say that again Paul yeah how do we watch this every week i think most most people will be joining in in the first person yeah right it’s just it’s just it’s just such a shame you know that we’ve come to this i hate saying this but actually i think the Peterborough game has almost become irrelevant hasn’t it no no no see if they cook for crying out loud say it’s six games six games from a trophy Paul how can it be irrelevant i i i’ve always argued exactly the same as what you’re presenting now Andy but i just wonder well the the day the day that any football club and any set of fans walks away from a six game tournament a potential six game tournament and class it as irrelevant then then football is done this is the greatest this is the greatest domestic cup competition in the world of football and anybody it doesn’t matter whether they’re you know whether they’re never Tony and they’ll have a puddly and a man united fan or or acting to stand Anybody that turns away from a potential six-game tournament and a piece of silverware at the end and sees it as irrelevant, 

My God, that is the end of football. That is the end of football. There’s no way back from that. I don’t agree with that, Andy, but I’m intrigued to know why you thought it’s irrelevant, Paul. Well, it might sound as if I’m just being deliberately provocative this week. 

Paul: I didn’t take a provocative pill before we started the podcast. I think the chances of us winning the tournament are next to zero because we’re one. I understand that. I get it, Andy. if we draw a decent team we’re based on the fact that we’ve only won three out of 19 games so far this season or 19 league games so far this season suggests that we won’t win against him ever were drawn against if they’re you know another Premier League team and and I hate saying it but maybe it is the case it just our our sole focus has to be on survival. 

George: Well I think it’s absolutely crucial because because as Andy said about 40 minutes ago if and I don’t think Peterborough will come with an ounce of fear they would be mental to come with any apprehension whatsoever because they’re not going to win the cup so they might as well come here and go come on and we’ll give you a lot of game of football can you play we haven’t seen any evidence of it um that should they get a result on Thursday night that’s uh an absolute watershed far far too early for the free kids to do for the free kids to welcome it I think they should act before Thursday I think Andy was right when he said the atmosphere at Goodison if Baines and for me it would be Baines, 

Seamus and I’d get Colin Harvey out as well and walk onto the pitch with them um just to change the atmosphere completely and I believe the players would smash Peterborough and the difference that that would bring to all of us would be worth it and and the fact that if you did do that you know it’s short term unless you know Seamus goes on a 25 game winning run and we end up in the European Cup Final before we sack him But I think the Peterborough match is absolutely crucial, 

Paul: Absolutely crucial. It’s really interesting because I don’t know, I’ve not discussed this with either of you beforehand, but I’m actually going to the game on Thursday. Oh, lovely. And it will be because of my diary for the rest of this season. 

It will be my last trip to Goodison Park. Oh, right. You know, I know both of you have been regular visitors for many, many years to Goodison Park. And I hope that both of you get an opportunity to go over there one more time, at least. 

So I’ll go there with mixed emotions. Obviously. you know, lots and lots of memories of great times, just memories, really, just memories of being there. And what it means to me as an individual and what it means to members of my family prior to that, or prior to me going. 

So on one level, it is a, it’s going to be quite an occasion for me personally. Because no matter what the result is, when the whistle goes after 95 minutes or however long it is, I’m going to stand there and watch the team go off to go to some pitch for the last time ever. 

Because I won’t be able to go to another game. After this, and I’ll probably stand there and watch the crowd empty and be one of the last people to leave the stadium because I’ll just want to think about all the things I’ve seen when I’ve been there. 

But the game itself is, and I’m really sad to say, it’s almost inconsequential to me. Yeah, it’s the occasion rather than the game itself. Yeah, I’m going because I’ve got the opportunity to go and it is literally the last opportunity to go and see a game. 

And I almost didn’t go. I almost said no to a ticket because of the way that the club is at this moment in time, I don’t really want to go and see an ever since I was struggling in the manner in which it is playing in a manner in which it is. 

I mean, to stand a few yards away from Sean Dyche bellowing, whatever it is he bellows, waving his arms, etc. And seeing a good person crowd so distressed at the state of our football club. But you can’t, you can’t necessarily choose the circumstances in which you go to something can you? 

Andy: You go. It’s the best thing. So before we put in a performance and get a result for you. Well, let’s hope they put in a performance with the hundreds of thousands of Evertonians and I’ll survive whatever. 

Whatever happens on Thursday. And. What can you say? I mean, everything just like throw things at you that you don’t. Until it happens, you don’t actually ever believe you’d end up talking about or end up drawing the conclusions that you end up drawing. 

Paul: We are. That’s the point of the chat in it. It is. But we are probably the most difficult club in the world to support at this moment in time. Because of all of the different juxtapositions that exist. 

Yeah. We’re a great club. We are one of the most historical story clubs in club football, not just in England, but around the world. We’ve got a historic stadium that we’re leaving, and yet the manager doesn’t seem to see the relevance of that. 

I noted one of his comments, very disparaging about just leaving the old lady as if it had no real consequence. Of course it has a consequence. Our very future is a football club. We will survive in the championship if we ended up there, but the relevance of it to the city of Liverpool, to the regional developments, as we talked about previously when we talked about whether Bramley-Moore would actually happen or not, 

all of these issues are still there. I’ve talked to local politicians, political leaders, MPs, and others about the state of Everton Football Club, and they all say, well, yeah, we understand the relevance of Everton Football Club to the city of Liverpool, but we can’t change the manager. 

We can’t change the appointment. The only people that can change that are the frequent. The politicians and everybody else, including the fans, have to lobby as hard as possible for that change, and if that change doesn’t occur, then an explanation as to why it doesn’t occur. 

Yes, please. We start 2025, which is a different set of problems, I suppose. 

George:What’s the next game after Peterborough. 

Andy: What, on Sunday? Next two games. Yeah, there’s no game next weekend. Oh, so we played, we played Peterborough, and then there’s 10 days. 

Yeah. Great. Well, there you go. Come on. Don’t miss this opportunity. Get somebody in. Somebody. Ah, I’m getting ratty. Let’s put some new batteries in the bleep machine then. Oh, for goodness sake. 

Paul: No, sorry. Go on. Let’s leave it there, and we can pick up. We can pick up next weekend

George: Yeah, you can give us a fan’s-eye view, man. Yeah. Give you a blow-by-blow account. Yes, please. Yeah. Anyway, there we go. 

Paul: Yeah. Well, thank you both very much for a very interesting discussion and thank you to everybody for listening and let’s hope we, we set the manager. Yeah, I thought we would see some change during the week and preferably before Thursday. 

George: Yes, please. Fingers crossed. Well, you know, if it is going to be your last match there, considering, you know, your history with all our histories, but your particular history with being an Evertonian. 

I hope they do sack the manager so that you get one last floodlit evening when Everton, when Goodison Park bounces, man, with enthusiasm. Because if they don’t sack the manager, that’s not what you’re going to see. 

Paul: You’re going to see something that’s terrified of Peterborough, frankly. Yeah. Although, yelling at Dyche, 90 minutes because we’ve lost 1-0 and not had a shot on target against Peterborough, it would be almost a fitting end. 

Don’t go. Welcome to your sort of throw ball. Thanks more than just with you. I say that very much. Cheung. Cheung in cheek. Cheung in cheek. Yeah, let’s see what happens. Guys, thank you so much. Really fascinating conversation there. 

I hope people, whether they agree with me or they agree with both of you, have enjoyed the conversation and are obviously very happy to hear other people’s opinions as well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. All right, guys. 

All: Take care. Cheers.