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Talking the Blues Podcast 3rd March 2024 Transcript 

Paul: Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, depending upon where in the world you are and what time of the day you’re listening to this episode of Talking in the Blues.

 Before we talk about the football and anything else that’s related to Everton I think it’s appropriate to say that this podcast is going to be dedicated to somebody that Andy certainly knew very, very well and I knew him for a number of years and that’s Mark, otherwise known as Roydo, who was a moderator at GrandOldTeam, Andy, perhaps it’s more appropriate for you to say what happened to Mark and why we’re actually dedicating this podcast. 

Andy: It’s a very, very sad time for everyone on GrandOldTeam and Mark was probably the most universally liked poster on the show GrandOld team. 

We all like to be popular on social media and many people try to be popular on social media. I don’t think Mark ever tried. He just was one of the nicest people.

I never met him personally but I had conversations with him through the forum, particularly when he lost his wife a couple of years ago and it came as a massive shock to everybody when we found out on Saturday that he passed away two or three weeks ago. 

It only really came to light when somebody noticed he hadn’t been posting very much on the forum and the moderators were asking one another and we managed to get in touch. Danny, who runs GrandOldTeam, managed to get in touch with one of his family and we got the sad news that Mark had passed away. 

And you know, for a guy that many, many people had never met, but many, many people knew and had and had dealings with through the forum on GrandOldTeam. And the response to the post that Danny put on the forum last night to advise of his passing has been phenomenal. 

It’s just wall to wall love for the guy. Some real tear -jerking memories of him. And you know, his passing kind of puts everything in perspective because we’re going to talk about a game of football shortly and we’ll probably get annoyed and wound up and irritated over 22 guys kicking a piece of leather around. And Mark’s passing sadly puts all that into some kind of perspective. And so, you know, Mark, if you’re listening, resting piece my friend. 

Paul: Well said, Andy. I did meet Mark on one occasion when I was a moderator of GrandOldTeam. And that was back in 2015, the last game of the season against Tottenham Hotspot, the game that we lost 1 -0. And Harry Kane scored at the Street End. And Mark was as delightful in person as he was online. 

 A very, very funny guy, very nice guy, very warm, very pleasant. He had his own sort of eccentricity. Is that my word now? Accentrities, thank you, sorry. There you go, there’s mine, I can’t say words properly. 

But a lovely, lovely guy. I know he traveled, for that game, he traveled up with Micknick, who a lot of people who are listening to this will know, and I’ll leave it for Micknick to tell the tale, but they had quite an adventurous journey. 

The other thing that another lot of people know about Mark was, he was the grandson of a builder in Hoylake, so his Father’s Father was a builder in Hoylake, and his Father, Mark’s father, went on to sort of greater things. 

And in fact, he was the person, and some people may not like this, but he was the person who introduced the privatization of cleaning services in the National Health Service under Margaret Thatcher’s government. 

And it was so successful in inverted commas that I remember Mark telling me one time that Margaret Thatcher and Dennis used to send Mark’s Dad a Christmas card every Christmas. Just thought I’d share that with you. 

But that’s him. That was Mark all over. But Mark was full of surprises. Wherever you are, Mark, and I’m sure you’re with your lovely Nikki who is also, I never met Nikki, but she sounded like a wonderful person. 

And her loss to you was enormous. So I’m sure you’re both together now. And yeah, thanks for everything that you did, Mark. 

Right. Everton. West Ham United. David Moyes. 

Andy: We got Moyes, didn’t we? We did. Big time. No wonder we look so happy at the end of the game. I mean, a game of two halves. The first half was, well, from my perspective, dreadful. I was sat at home watching it because as I said a number of weeks ago, I will never, ever go to a stadium again where Craig Pawlson is going to be the official. 

And he was the official yesterday. And I wish I could blame him for the loss yesterday. And I can’t. He actually had probably his best appearance in a game involving Everton. He even gave us a penalty, which we muffed. 

So I can’t even blame him. yesterday. 

Paul: Andy, sorry, Andy, you could argue that he tried his best not to give the penalty because why did it have to go to VAR? Goodness knows. He didn’t see it. Did he not see it? 

George: I think he was the wrong side of him.

Andy:  Right. In fairness, I can’t believe I’m going to say in fairness to him. I’m just setting you up here, Andy. Yes. I’m waiting for Jeremy Beadle to walk in now with a candid camera crew. 

Yes. I found it a game of two halves. The first half I thought was poor from both sides, particularly having. We had the penalty and Beto didn’t score. The goalie made a good save. The goalie made a one decent save from Beto before the penalty. 

But at half time I found myself thinking there’s 45 minutes of my life I’m not getting back. The second half was a turnaround. Both teams were better, markedly better for long periods of the second half. 

But we get the goal, we go ahead and inside seven or eight minutes we’ve conceded. And it was a poor goal for Everton to concede. I mean, Zuma was three yards out when he got that header. So the first question is why isn’t one of the centre -halfs climbing all over him? 

Why isn’t the goalie, or second question, why isn’t the goalie come for the cross? And the third is, you know, who was on the line at the post, was it Garner? Garner  jumped to try and reach the header from Zuma, he wasn’t exactly spring -legged. 

And from then on, you got the feeling became almost inevitable if there was going to be a winner. It was going to come from West Ham and two goals he added on time is just… No wonder, you know, the ground was half -empty by the time Alvarez got the insurance goal. 

Paul: The Park End looked as if it was an emergency evacuation. 

Andy: Yeah, Operation Goodison. 

George: Yeah. I’m not laughing or I’m laughing, but I mean, it’s just, yeah, remarkable. I mean, the home form this year is… 

 Andy: I mean, we’ve seen some poor football from Everton Football Club down the years, and we’ve had some… disappointing seasons but I can’t remember a season where it’s almost as though the team don’t want to play at Goodison and I know that’s a gross exaggeration but they just can’t seem to win a game at Goodison. 

We seem a lot more confident and a lot more capable away from home. Is there something about as Goodison suddenly become our Achilles heel? I don’t know, it’s just baffling. 

Paul: George, I’ll come at that point Andy because I think it’s an interesting one. 

George, you saw the game obviously. I think a lot of people are waiting for you to explode at the end of your phone line but what were your views on the game?

George: Andy’s right, he’s two halves, you kind of go, that’s the third game in a row that they’ve not played for the first half. 

They go in, they get bollocked, they get told to tighten up, they get to, I don’t understand, it’s like, and you know, we’ve been there with Martinez, we’ve been there with quite a few managers where you go, get two half times so you can bollock them, I don’t understand how, you know, in a 90 minute job, you’re only doing the second half of it. 

You know, my take on that game was, when the luck is going against you, Dyche has got a point when he says we had 22 shots and only one went in. What’s he supposed to do about that? 22 shots is a lot. 

It’s more than Liverpool had yesterday, I just noticed. But we score and then there’s a chance for McNeill and there’s another chance for DCL and somehow the goalie gets to both of them and in those moments, that’s the moment Andy’s talking about where you go, I know what’s going to happen now. 

Andy: Yeah, particularly the one that went better, had his shot deflected and it looped up and the goalie got back and you think to yourself, it’s not our day. Well, yeah, because we’re so used to it and as you said, and as is clear, they’ve forgotten how to win a game of football. 

George: So, you know, we score and I’m just texting a N’evertonian in Glasgow to go, don’t defend, don’t go and Zuma scored and you go, oh no. My thought was, you know, I understand that everybody’s raging and sweating and I’m only on one point. Am I angry? 

I thought we played some good football yesterday in the second half. And I’m quite confident we’ll paste United when we get to the next round,  but the idea of bringing Chermiti and Dobbin on in added-on time is an insult. 

And much as I have defended his character and I’m, you know, would be very, very happy to sit down and have a cup of tea with Sean Dyche who looks like a bit of a dude to me, he needs a plan B, and he needs surprise himself as well as us and other teams. 

I thought Dobbin and Chimity would have been within their rights to go, get stuffed, you go on, fatty. What am I supposed to do in four minutes? Nothing. It’s ludicrous, it’s insulting and, you know, to see Moisey beat him to the punch on substitutions is, I don’t know, you know, you just, there are certain… 

Stop that stonk in the old wound, isn’t it? Sort of, yeah, Andy, you know, I mean, you know, I also wrote to that mate in Glasgow. halfway, you know, as the second half kicked off, then the next thing to look forward to a year was just before Beto scored. 

The next thing to look forward to is when and if we get substitutions. I thought they were unlucky. We could have, you know, we could have gone two nil up and that would have done it probably, though you can’t guarantee it because they have forgotten how to see out a result. 

And Osman was interesting on the commentary, I was just listening to, that the second goal, which was a beauty, you know, the way the guy slapped it with the outside of his right foot, no chance, Pickford, Osman pointed out, yeah, then awful lot of time to chest that ball down in the penalty area and then, you know, splatter it. 

Nobody went to him and threw their body at him. Um, unhappy days, what can I say, you know, it was very, very unhappy watch. That’s, that’s it. The, the, the, the, the Dobbin, Chermitti thing just, I think the expression is, pissed me off. 

It’s insulting too, there’s nothing they can do. So what’s he supposed to say to them at the end of it? Bad luck, lads. What do you mean, bad luck? Nobody gave me a pass. And nor could they because they haven’t got time. 

It’s just crazy. He’s got to be bolder with that. He’s got, you know, it’s not a bad substitution, but for crying out loud, give them 20 minutes. I don’t, I don’t understand his thinking on that and he’s too cautious. 

And he really needs to surprise himself. What did you think, Paul? 

Paul: I thought it was a pretty poor performance by West Ham. Okay. I know, I know they beat Brentford, earlier in the week, was at 4-2 at home? 

But you know, they’ve been in a poor state of form. I don’t know Moyes, he gets, you know, worked up and energized for coming back to Goodison. And in fact, he said, didn’t he say in the media during the week that each time he comes back, he enjoys it more? 

Andy: He keeps winning, that’s why. I’m not surprised with the results. 

Paul: He’s almost won one more time against Everton than he did with Everton. I think that was his sixth win against Everton since he left what, 11 years ago? 

I just thought, first of all, as I say, West Ham United, the goalkeeper had a fantastic game. But you know, we had lots and lots of chances. So he’d had to have a impossible defense all the different, different deaths 

Paul: We never looked comfortable. In fact, the second half was just surprising when you think about it for a Dyche game and against an opposition, opposing manager like Moyes. It was a very, very loose and open game, wasn’t it? 

You know, both sides had plenty of time on the ball. The problem for Everton, of course, is because we lack such creativity and we don’t seem to have a plan which allows us to pass the ball through the lines. 

George: I think you’ve just hit the nail on the head there, Paul, with the word creativity. They had Kudos, Paqueta and Alvarez who were all trying to make things happen. And we had maybe Onana because McNeil is out of form. 

Harrison and Garner weren’t as productive as they can be or should be. I was going to say I almost felt sorry for Onana, but their midfield had many more options and much more mobility about them than we had. 

Consequently, they were able to create. I mean, when you think about it, we kept Jared Bowen, who got a hattrick against Brentford on Monday night and he’s been in decent form all season for West Ham. 

Andy: We kept him quiet. The mid and the centre of the defence kept him quiet, but I don’t think he had a shot on target yesterday, Jared Bowen. I might be wrong. I might be doing the way, it’s terrible this year. 

Paul: But we kept their main striker quiet, lost and still lost 3 -1. Well, if we’re going to, A, you concede the goal from the corner and B, give people as much time and space as we did for the other two goals that we conceded. 

We’re always going to concede two or three goals in a game, aren’t we? I think even his greatest fans would say he’s a limited manager in terms of his range of tactical options. Let’s put it that way. 

And that’s been the case regardless of who he’s managed. But if you are tactically limited or restricted, you’ve got to play to that plan and you’ve got to play to that plan as well as you possibly can. 

And I think one of the things that I’m seeing about this current ever since side is we’re setting up like a Dyche team and we try and do what Dyche teams do, but we’re doing it less and less effectively, almost game on game, which is why we’re now conceding, you know, that’s two games in a run where we conceded from conceded a header having gone through the whole season previously without conceding a header. 

It’s why we’re giving space to people in the box, space to people on the wings. It’s why we’ve got, our goalkeeper almost playing as a sweeper, launching balls, you know, straight balls down the pitch to somebody just and it doesn’t matter whether it’s DCL or whether it’s Beto, somebody who doesn’t have anybody around him to pick up the second ball. 

And, you know, in the absence, and I think this is why we scored so few, but (a) why we scored so few goals, and (b) why we scored so few goals from open play, that it’s just, it is tactically very limiting. 

And if you’re not even achieving what those tactical limitations can allow, then you’re in a really difficult place. And that’s where we are at the moment. We can talk about expected goals and 22 shots, this and the other, but it doesn’t make a world of difference if somebody can’t stick the ball in the back of the net. 

Andy: Exactly. But listen to what you’re saying. It explains why he’s not putting Dobbin and Chermiti because he’s got no role for them. Yeah, I mean, you know, the idea is that you drop DCL and talk about that in a minute, but the idea that you drop DCL and you bring Beto on. 

Paul: All he’s doing is like, he’s not changing the system in any way, he’s just changing the person. It’s like for like because they’re both target men rather than strikers. Yeah. So if it’s not working for DCL, and, I think most people would argue and argue successfully that DCL is a better footballer than Beto. 

What’s the chances of it working for Beto? 

George: Yeah. But you know, when you read the team sheet, when you read the team sheet at two o ‘clock yesterday, you kind of go, yep, fair enough, you’ve got to try it. 

But I’d have been happier if he’d have tried something else with somebody else, particularly Dobbin. who I think I said to somebody yesterday, you know, if he brought Dobbin on, especially in that first half, you thought to yourself, well, no matter what he thinks of Dobbin as a player, he would at least bring some enthusiasm onto the pitch. 

Andy: Well, he’d offer a threat, wouldn’t he? And he’d be different, and he would occupy the West Ham events in a completely different manner. So, I’m just, you know, if this is what’s going to go on for the last games of the season, this boy is going to be thrown on with eight minutes to go. 

George: ‘m going to get hold of his Agent and send him to get the hell out of there, because it’s ludicrous. Yeah. It’s barmy. We seem to be cutting our own throats. Very, very depressing day. I don’t know what to say about that yesterday. 

Paul: The other point about DCL is that, I think it’s fair to say that it’s very widely recognised that DCL at times can be quite sensitive from a mental perspective, and that’s not a criticism of him in any sense. 

It’s just the way he is. You know, he is probably a deep thinker of his own performances, and he’s probably enormously self -critical of his own performances, which is what leads to this idea that perhaps, you know, he’s not quite as mentally strong as other players have been in the past. 

If DCL is sitting on the bench and he’s seeing us play in exactly the same way as we would have had he been on the pitch, and he’s looking at Beto and he’s thinking, this manager thinks that Beto is a better option than I am. 

What does that do for DCL’s confidence? That, of course, is the counter argument to, well, you’ve played 20 games, mate, and you’ve not scored once in those 20 games, so we’ve got to give somebody else a chance. 

But I think it goes back to if you’re going to bring somebody else on, just don’t play the same way, play a different way. I can’t see a different way, can you? I’ve got no evidence to support Everton playing in a different way. 

We’re a Premier League football team that spends about £3 million a week on players’ wages and everything else. A Premier League manager that’s managed over 300 games in the Premier League. How many backroom staff does he have? 

George: We can’t come up with another way of playing. I can’t answer that question. No, no, it’s rhetorical, but you know, Try something for God’s sake. It doesn’t work. I don’t know. I don’t know. When’s the next match? 

Man United? Yeah, 9th of March. I don’t fancy that. Pound them Andy, absolutely pound them. 

Andy: Well, I’d like that to happen, bro. I really would. Nothing would make me happier. But… I’m sorry. Somebody asked some questions. 

I’m a bit lost and a bit depressed about Everett at the moment. That’s the trouble. There’s very little to get enthusiastic about at the moment about the club. Because it’s just, you know, a different day, same crap. 

You kind of feel like the League gives us four points back and we immediately throw them away? Well, yeah. I mean, you would have thought that yesterday that having got four points returned, you know, the team could be a little, maybe a little bit more relaxed as they went out for the game. 

Still, you know, still not out of the woods, if you like. Not at all. Straight back in them. Well, yeah, exactly. We are again now. You know, the only saving grace is that, about yesterday, is that Forest and Luton managed to lose their games late on. 

Andy: Yeah. You know, I mean, and we’re all, we’ve just been, you know, we have been critical of things. I mean, we have got a significantly better goal difference than all those around us which might prove to be very important come the end of the season. 

I’m sure it will. Yeah. Providing we don’t start shipping lots of goals and play catch -up of our own accord. The other thing that all this reveals and it’s thrown into relief by the team across the park is that nothing is coming from the academy. 

George: Nothing at all. That’s the really disappointing thing and it is that over the years we’ve been, we’ve smirked at Liverpool for not using their academy and using their kids and then all of a sudden through injuries and whatnot. 

Andy: They’ve suddenly given three or four of them the chance all at one time and they took to it like a duck to water. Look at the factors behind why our academy is not performing. What are they? I think you’ve got to look back sort of two or three, four, maybe four or five years because maybe longer. 

Paul: Yeah, the people that come through clubs, academies, generally by the time they reach the first team, have been at the academies, you’re right Andy, six, seven, eight years, you know, they’re coming in as like, you know, really pre -teen kids. 

And they work their way through. Now, it’s a big bun fight in terms of talent, and especially in the northwest of England, where you’ve got so many big clubs competing for effectively the same pool of talent. 

Where does Everton come in that ranking? Well, it quite clearly comes fourth out of the four Premier League clubs that are in the northwest of England. And if you extend that to the north of England, you know, it’s difficult to see how we’re going to be any better than, in terms of attracting players than Newcastle United are, for example, and Leeds arguably may now be viewed as a more attractive proposition. 

And so almost by default, we’re getting the choices that other teams are not making, they’re getting the first choice, we’re getting the kids who would be in the playground, the ones that are picked last, and they’re normally picked last for a reason. 

And then you’ve got to look at, well, who have we had running the academy? Have we had any consistency? Have we had people who have built a career at Everton in developing the academy? You know, through what they’ve produced, through a methodology, through a system, this is the, you know, you know, a number of lots of things. 

Talk a few years ago about the Everton way. I mean, it just doesn’t exist. No, who is running the Academy now? What’s his name? Off the top of my head, I couldn’t tell you,  

George:  it’s not Leighton Baines. He’s part of it, isn’t he? Yeah, I think I think I think first of all, you know, I mean, you’ve just said that Paul, you know, at the minute of the available talent that’s out there, where we’re down the picking order in terms of attracting youngsters to come and play for us, or to join the Everton Academy. 

Andy: I think that, you know, there’s got to be some questions asked of the scouting staff. That they’re not finding the right players at the right time. Or even any players at the right time. If we are consistently, you know, for one of the better phrase, picking up the dregs, why are the scouting staff doing? 

Why aren’t they more proactive out there in the field watching schoolboy football or even non-league football and looking for talent?

George: I’m sure they are, Andy, that’s their life. 

Andy: Obviously they are, but we don’t seem to be bringing enough people in who are then progressing to the point where they’re ready to come into the first team, which just hasn’t done it. 

I think it’s like a vicious circle because let’s imagine that you and I have got a son who’s really talented and really good and United City and Everton come for him. The argument would be, no, go to Everton, you stand more chance because the city will just buy the team. 

But the counter argument to that if you were a United or a city spokesperson is really, how many people have made it through the academy to play for Everton recently? If you want to send your son there, it’s a graveyard mate and Dyche won’t pick him anyway at the moment. 

George: We’re stuck in a vicious circle because we’re so underachieving that, and I’m sure I would respect Dyche if he picks up the phone and interrupts this podcast now and goes, I can’t afford to take those risks. 

I have to work with fully grown men professionals. I can’t throw three kids on there. I don’t know, but the fact that there is nothing coming through at all is really worrying. 

Paul:I think the guy in charge of recruitment at the academy is a guy who has been at Everton, left Everton, who came back to Everton, isn’t it, Joe Waldron? 

Andy: Is he back? 

Paul: I thought he was back. I’d have to check on the Everton website whilst we’re talking. 

George: The problem, I mean, Dyche would say that, the problem is that there’s nobody anywhere near the level that can come into a struggling Everton side and make a significant difference. 

Paul: I get that totally, but that is a reflection of how… And this is a repeating theme, I know, but all of the club’s problems at the moment are a reflection of the way that the club has been run for many, many years. 

George: Yeah, absolutely. All the chickens are coming home to roost now, aren’t they? And just while I’m talking, looking on the Everton website, Joe Waldron is… listed as head of Academy recruitment. So other people will know more about this than me or the three of us actually, but it appears that he’s gone back because from my memory he left about, I think it was December 23 he left. 

Yeah. Well, no, hang on a minute, if he left December 23 he can’t be, that was… 

George: No, he did something about it like Santa Claus. Didn’t he leave about… That’s maybe 22 he left. 

Paul: Yeah. Anyway, who knows, maybe he needs to get Kevin Thelwell and he needs to speak up, but clearly that is a big problem. 

The fact that we can’t recruit people because of our financial difficulties is a big problem. We know we’ve got a reduced squad in terms of numbers, we’re still carrying the number of players who can only play limited amounts of time or spend a lot of time on the treatment table. 

We are just a reflection of how we’ve been run for years and perhaps it is unfair to expect Sean Dyche to make radical improvements in Everton. Maybe he is actually doing as much as he can possibly do for us. 

I’m not making excuses for him, don’t get me wrong, I’m just saying that he is probably in the most extraordinarily difficult circumstances. He talks about blocking off all the noise about all the stuff that’s going on off -field. 

That’s only part of his problems, isn’t it? He’s got a limited squad, a lot of injuries, he’s got limited players within the squad. He’s presenting himself as somebody who’s a limited tactician, he doesn’t have many options. 

Wen he uses an option like Beto and DCL, he doesn’t change the way that we’re playing. It’s just that, as you said, Andy, a like for like. Perhaps it’s no wonder that we’re becoming the… We’re so predictable, we must be the easiest team in… 

I know there’s two very poor teams at the bottom of the league, but we must be the easiest team to play against at this moment in time. 

Andy: I would think we’re one of the easiest to prepare to play against. 

Paul: Yeah. Yeah, you know exactly what we’ll do. Yeah. So maybe instead of dithering Dave, we have dithering Dyche. No, sorry, I shouldn’t really say that. Because it’s not really a laughing matter, is it? It’s difficult, you know, how many games have we got left? 

Is it ten games?

Andy: I’m just looking at the table now, we’ve played 27. 

Paul: Oh, so we’ve got 11 games left, so we’ve got what? let’s just think about our home game. We’ve got Burnley at home, we’ve got Forest at home, Brentford at home, and… 

Paul: Sheffield United. Sheffield United. And Liverpool? Yeah. Yeah. Which might be right at the end of the season before the Arsenal game. 

Andy:Yeah, because that game’s going to get moved because they’re still involved in the FA Cup. 

Andy: Yeah. So, out of those games, Burnley is a must, well, they’re all must -win, but Burnley is a must-win, Forrest is a must-win, and Sheffield United is a must-win. And Brentford, they’ve got a… You said a couple of weeks ago, Paul, we need six wins. 

And we haven’t… And we’ve played two games since then, and we haven’t won either of them. We’ve taken one point from six. So, those home games now, if you leave out the derby, as you said, is Burnley on April 6th, Forrest on the 20th of April, Brentford the week after, then we go to Luton, and then the last home game is the 11th of May against Sheffield United. 

So, they’ve got to be looking for five points to them, because the other games, going back in reverse order, last game of the season is Arsenal away, Chelsea away, Newcastle away, and Bournemouth away. 

Paul: So, it’s all on the home games. I mean, we’ve got Luton away as well, Andy. 

Andy: We’ve got Luton, yeah, I said, yeah, I put Luton in with the other home games. Oh, yeah, with the games that we should win, yeah. 

Paul: Yeah, the games have got to be looking to win, but they were saying that four of the five games that we would like to think were winnable are at Goodison, where we’re struggling to get a result. Yeah, but we won three games all season. 

George: Yeah, the away form has been markedly better, and yet the away games we’ve got, Bournemouth, where as you said earlier, we’ve struggled in recent years, Newcastle, which will be tough, Chelsea, which will be tough, and then we finish at Arsenal. 

Paul: Yeah, which is the end of the world. It’s the annual end of season party for Arsenal, isn’t it? You’ll probably get Tony Adams out of retirement to school the fourth. God. Well, if they’re going to bring Tony Adams back, should we bring back Alan Clark? 

Andy: Wayne, you mean? 

Paul: Sorry? Wayne Clark, sorry. I don’t know what’s wrong with me today, sort of, yeah, Wayne Clark, not Alan Clark, sniffer. 

George: What’s the situation with the second… Whatever it’s called about our financial position. 

Sure. What is to make me believe that we’re not going to get dropped points? I think we’re almost certain to get dropped more points. Are we? The question is going to be, by the fact, I don’t think it is a question of are we going to be dropped points? 

Paul: I think it is a question now of how many points will be dropped? And what came out of the appeal is there’s now a sort of, whilst there isn’t a formal tariff as such, there’s first of all, there’s an acceptance that a breach of profitability and sustainability rules infers a sporting advantage that that seems now to be accepted. 

And as a result, therefore, a sporting sanction is the appropriate sanction or penalty. So that can only mean, and in fact, the appeal said that that doesn’t mean a transfer ban or a ban on new registration of players, etc. 

It means a point of points penalty. So on the basis that we accept that we’re guilty as charged and we already know that for two of those years we’ve already been proven to be guilty or at least under the Premier League rules. 

We’re going to have a penalty and it seems that six points is now the starting point for anybody that breaks the rules. But of course we will argue that in this three -year period that we’re now having the second charge, we’ve already had a charge applied to us for two of those years, so -called double jeopardy, although double jeopardy is more to do with criminality than it is to do with a civil case like this. 

George: So do we end up just getting one -third of the six -point penalty because two of those three years have already been penalized for? Right. But they are guaranteeing that they’re going to deal with this before the end of the season, so there will be more point stoppage before the end of the season?. 

Well, I think that’s a good point. I think that’s a good point. I think that’s a good point. That is the case if we don’t appeal against it. I thought you said we can’t appeal against the second one. 

Paul No, we can’t appeal against the first one. The first one is done and dusted now.

 All right. We could appeal against it. We could appeal on either procedural grounds or on grounds of mitigation against the second one. 

It’s interesting. I know we’ve not had a podcast since the appeal decision came out. Just to touch on that very briefly, because it is relevant to what happens in the second charge. We lost every single point of mitigation. 

Mitigation meaning this is our plea to have a reduced sentence for want of a better way of describing it. We lost on every single one of those points. We took nine topics for want of a better description into the appeal process, seven of which were regarding mitigation. 

We lost all seven of those. The only two points which fell in our favor as far as the appeal was concerned, were two points based on how the commission itself had dealt with evidence breach, i.e. the breach of utmost good faith. 

In fact, the original commission found us in their words “less than frank”. Well the appeal recognized that that was a legal error, but they couldn’t and shouldn’t have considered that because that wasn’t what we were charged with. 

Rule B.5, what we were charged with was rule E.51 which is the profitability and sustainability rule. And the second point was, oh, my memory today is terrible. I wrote a massive, early article about this. 

What was the second point that we were there legally aired? Oh, on the fact that there wasn’t a prescribed tariff, which seems now to have been sort of solved by virtue of them saying, well, there isn’t a prescribed tariff, but we start in future, we’re going to start from six points and then we’ll add points based on, you know, what the circumstances are. 

So actually the fact that we went from minus 10 points and we got the reduction is nothing at all to do with the way that Everton behaves. It’s all to do with the legal inaccuracies of the commission. 

So going into and reason might need that explanation. Going into the second charge means that whatever the result of the second charge is with the second commission, it seems to me that the only basis we will have to repeal is if they do something procedurally or you’re wrong. 

Yeah, if they get their act together we’re toast. Yeah, and you know, the commission is supposed to be independent of the Premier League, but you can bet your bottom dollar that that commission is not going to make the same mistakes twice. 

No. Now they may make other legal mistakes, they may err in other ways. And I think it’s highly unlikely to rely upon that. So, you know, whatever the commission finds is probably what we end up with. 

So on that basis it would fall in before the end of the season. If it went to appeal, it would probably go beyond the end of the season. So we would play our final games and still perhaps not know whether we were going to remain in the Premier League or not . 

Andy: Absolutely, yeah. But then if it went to an appeal and that appeal dragged on as long as the first one, we could almost be at the start of the next season not knowing whether we were going to have points deducted from this season that could possibly put us into one of the relegation spots. 

George: We could almost get to the start of the next season still not knowing, you know, what division we’re going to be playing in. Well, no, there’s a cut off date, isn’t there? 

Paul: Isn’t there at some point in May where the Premier League at the end of May, the Premier League has its annual general meeting. 

Right. There has to be a decision before then because at that annual general general meeting, they confirm who the relegated clubs are, and they confirm who the promoted clubs are. And there’s a change of shareholding at that annual general meeting, because don’t forget, the relegated clubs give up the Premier League share, and the promoted clubs take those shares when they become members of the Premier League. 

So it has to happen before, or I think it’s some time in the final week in May. So even though our last game of the season is on the 19th of May, whatever the decision is, if it’s not been made by then, has to happen before the last week of May. 

Andy: OK. Who should have took that penalty yesterday? Who should have took the penalty? Pickford. Undoubtedly. Because he would have used that old phrase, stuck his laces through the ball. And if Aeriola had got in the way, he’d have ended up in the back of the net as well. 

George: I wonder who the penalty taker will be for next week. At Old Trafford. Rarer than Rocking horse shit. Yeah. Well, for a visitor to get one, yeah. Yeah, that’s what I meant. 

Andy: Yeah, I know.

Paul: Just on the point of who took the penalty, there didn’t appear to be an awful lot of people volunteering to take it. 

Andy: No, I’m not surprised. No, I mean, I think you have to give Beto some credit for taking on the responsibility. I genuinely felt he didn’t look 100% confident, where the camera looked on him and on his face as he was waiting for the, you know, the referee to blow his whistle. 

George: And I didn’t think he looked 100% confident. You know, goalie made goal, you know, he put it in the bottom corner, goalie made a decent save. Chance gone. You know, it would have been very easy for him to let his head drop, but he, you know, he didn’t. 

He, he got back on with it and he eventually put us in front in the second half. But still, I’d write at this minute in time, I’d give it Pickford or maybe even Tarkovsky and just get up there and blast it. 

Andy: But Paul’s point is give it the volunteer. Well, they did give it the volunteer. Yeah. And it’s a, it’s a mark of how the club is that when he gave the pain, 37 ,000 of us all thought, who’s going to take that? 

But Dyche comes out with the, so George, Dyche comes out with that, you know, we knew who was going to take it because we practice these things. and I think he referred to practicing for the Cup games and we knew that it was gonna be, in these circumstances, that it was gonna be Beto, which presented the best opportunity of us scoring from a penalty. 

Andy: I find that incredible. Me too. And that’s no disrespect to better. I find it incredible that there wasn’t a senior professional on the pitch, you said, listen mate, you haven’t played that often. I’m taking control here. 

George: McNeil’s the shooter, isn’t he? 

Paul: Well, I just thought Dacoure actually. Oh. He can put his laces through the ball to use Andy’s expression. 

George: Yeah, I mean half of me was going, no, no, don’t let Onana… 

But you know, hey ho, there you go. But again, well, it’s just a… love. I’m afraid it is. The mental frailty that exists within the club. Yeah. They need to sneak a win and remember what that feeling is. 

Yeah. And there’s no better place than next weekend. No, absolutely Andy. For that Andy, sent off. I admire your confidence. That’s blind faith, not confidence. All right, before we finish, I think it’s probably just worth mentioning where we are with 777. 

Paul: Just that, you know, there is yet no decision. It’s worth remembering also that the Premier League can’t make the decision to reject them. i.e, they can’t ban them from being the new owners. 

They just don’t have to give the approval. That’s the way the Premier League deal with it. So ultimately it’s down to Farhad and 777 to recognise that they’re not going to get the gig. 

George: There’s no sign of that yesterday. There’s no recognition of that. There’s no recognition of it at all. 

Paul: No, they were there yesterday. Yeah, yeah. Well, Josh Wander was actually sitting next to Gareth Southgate. 

Andy:Hmm. Yeah, with his oppo, was it Pasko? 

Paul: I didn’t know Pasko was there. 

Georg: Yeah, he sat next to him. Right. The silver haired guy? Yeah. Right. So I mean they keep turning up don’t they?

Paul:  I don’t think they’ve got any choice with this matter at this point. 

They’ve got to maintain the facade, haven’t they? Yeah. And you know, if we just talk very, very briefly, because I know people are bored hearing me say this about 777’s circumstances and their ability to fund all of the things that they have to fund, not just football, go from bad to worse. 

You know, we had this week and I won’t bore everybody with the details. If you want the details, they’re on my website and with the audio and full transcript of the discussion. But one of, if not the, in fact, the biggest funders are external funders of 777 and their reassurance company in Bermuda. 

This company called A-CAP, a gentleman called Kenneth King that we’ve mentioned briefly before, told the world that they were withdrawing all of their assets from 777. And they’re doing so because they’re under pressure from the regulators because of their association with 777. 

And, you know, he made it clear that that is a result of 777’s, and he used the word – mismanagement. So here is somebody who, you know, is a big backer. We believe that he backed them to the tune of more than $2 billion. 

And he’s saying that he is withdrawing all of that funding because it’s damaging his business. Right. So this is not just some guy with a podcast and a website saying this any longer. This is one of the biggest funders, if not their biggest funder, saying we have to do this to protect our own business. 

And their business is a business that’s much bigger and stronger than Everton Football Club. Right. Which, again, points to the question, if a really serious, significant backer and investor of 777 no longer has faith in their ability to manage their assets properly, why on earth does Farhad Moshiri have that faith? 

George: That you don’t believe he does, Paul?

 Paul: Well, he’s the one person in the world that can stop this farce this afternoon. All he needs to do is pick up the phone to Josh Wander and say, I’m sorry, it’s not happening. 

. And you know, again, repeating myself probably, but the longer it goes on, he will argue and other advocates for 777 will argue, that it gets more and more difficult not to accept them because they keep lending Everton more and more money. 

The fact is, it’s not 777, that’s lending the money. It’s 777’s backers of which A-Cap is one and A-Cap as of now has said ”hang on a minute, we’re not doing this anymore. Actually, what we want is our money back, not we’re prepared to give you any more” 

So the whole situation is, it’s even more farcical than the penalty situation yesterday.

 Andy: This means the subject of administration stays on the table as well. 

Paul Yeah. All the threat of administration remains

The only reason we’ve not gone into administration in the last three or four months is because 777 through the funding by third parties has provided Everton with money to keep the lights on.

If they choose not to continue to fund Everton, then Farad Moshiri has to find somebody else. Everybody knows that Everton is the most distressed asset that can still be in business. So why would anybody lend Everton any more money? 

Farad Moshiri doesn’t seem minded to do it himself or able to do it himself. Whatever the case is. So in those circumstances, administration becomes inevitable. And I know it sounded a bit like the boy that cried wolf, but that is the reality. 

And I stress the point that when 777’s biggest backer comes out publicly and says, not only are we not giving this company any more money, we’re actually taking back the assets that we’ve invested in, that we’ve lent money to with regards to 777. 

Why on earth is Everton Football Club still entertaining the idea that these are the right partners? And if you need an explanation as to why the Premier League have not given approval, it’s not because of any ulterior motive in terms of corruption or not wanting to see Everton succeed. 

It is because they have the same concerns or more as do this company A-Cap, as does what was previously their biggest advocate, Kenneth King. The evidence is there right in front of us. And as I say, the only person that can change it is Farhad Moshiri, and he’s not listening, or he’s choosing not to listen.? 

George: He’s scared to death. Sorry, Judge. He’s scared to death, Paul. He’s run out of options, he’s run out of road. And he hasn’t got the courage to stand up and say so. Then inevitably it will be taken out of his control. 

Paul:  I think so. That’s what it feels like. I don’t know. Grim times. They are grim times. Well, hope nobody’s tuned in hoping to be cheered up by what we’ve talked about today. And I know I say that lightly, but it is… 

Andy: You do realise that the only person who’s come out of this podcast with any craze is Craig Pawson. And Roydo as well. And Roydo, yes. Oh dear me. 

Paul: Actually Andy, you’ve now got something in common with Beto. 

So, you both missed the first penalty of the season.

Andy:  Yeah, thanks very much. If we’re talking about Craig, that was a wonderful pass from Garner yesterday. Yeah, for the goal. Yeah. The cross, yeah. Yeah. 

Paul: I mean, to be fair, we didn’t mention it, did we? It was a great pass and it was a great goal. Although I did hear somebody say it came off his shoulder. Yeah, it wasn’t a clean header, was it? I don’t know. 

George: It wasn’t off the meter of his forehead, that’s for sure. At this stage, I don’t care if it comes off his backside as long as it hits the back of the net. No, absolutely.

Paul: Okay, all right, shall we leave it there? 

And let’s reconvene after… What would it be after the… Oh, you’d rather… Oh, yes, sorry, yeah, 9th of March, yeah. Yeah. Okay, it’s going to be your show, guys. I’m just going to sit and listen. 

Thanks very much to both of you and it goes without saying. Thanks very much to everybody who listens to us, supports us and recommends us to fellow blues. It’s massively appreciated, thank you. 

Andy, George and Paul: Cheers. Come on, you blues. Thanks, guys. Cheers, Paul. Cheers, I need cheers, George. No worries.