Welcome to the Transcript of the Talking the Blues Podcast, broadcast on Monday 22 April 2024.
Thanks to everyone who reads the transcripts – we are delighted to hear from people for whom listening to podcasts are difficult, glad to be of service to all Evertonians!
Transcript:
Paul:
Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, depending upon where in the world you are and what time of the day you’re listening to this episode of Talking the Blues. A rare episode because we can actually celebrate what ended up being a fairly comfortable victory against Nottingham Forest yesterday. Although what looks like on paper a very ordinary 2 -0 win probably isn’t an accurate reflection of the game.
Andy, George, hello to you both. Good day.
How do you feel after yesterday?
George:
Mm -hmm.
Andy:
Obviously we’re leading to another result. There was a lot to be desired from the performance but at the end of the day it wasn’t about the performances today, it was about getting the three points and we did that.
So, the box ticked. I thought Forest were poor for all the possession they had. The second half picked them and they saved me. They’ve been whinging and whining about penalties. I don’t think they’ve got a leg to stand on personally.
The referee was adamant on all three alleged penalties that they weren’t penalties. VAR reviewed them and they agreed. VAR is there to find or to look for clear and obvious errors and they didn’t find any clear and obvious errors so they weren’t penalties.
End of story, move on. But Forest reacted with that ridiculous tweet at full time accusing the PTMOL of putting a looting fan of VAR. I mean, dear God, grow up, accept the fact that you’ve got a poor side.
I mean, we weren’t great but they were worse. So, at the end of the day, I’m sorry, I’ve no sympathy for Forest yesterday. We went out there, we did what we had to do and at the end of the day that’s all that matters for the Football Club and Everton supporters.
We got the result and now we look forward to the next two games, which is the Derby and then Brentford. But, yeah, we look forward to it. We got the points, that’s it, that one’s history, it’s in the bag, move on.
Paul:
Mmm, George.
George:
Well, I’m intrigued that the BBC tells me that Forest did not complain about the Luton supporter in the truck, so I don’t know what’s going on there.
Andy:
I mean, to be fair, the Press Association said that as well. But that wasn’t what that wasn’t what Forest said immediately after the game.
George:
That’s kind of my point. Why did you say one thing when it wasn’t true? Anyway, I thought, you know, the one with Ashley Young’s hand, I’ve seen them given, and he wasn’t, sorry, it’s his hand. But anyway, I mean, yesterday, what did I think yesterday?
George:
I thought we were worth the one goal lead. And then there was a kind of mental, let’s get to our time, let’s get to our time. And they got to our time. And then I thought the first 20 minutes of the second half until, you know, we finally, until he pulled Gomes and put Ghana and some energy on the pitch was shocking.
George:
I was furious and scared because you just thought they’re just giving the game to them. We’re sitting back and deeper and deeper. Everybody gets the ball turns around, plastic sideways or back. What’s the matter with them?
I just, you know, points like that, you kind of go, I don’t believe these people are professionals. It’s not possible that people’s experience of that could possibly go, yeah, well, we’ll just try and play this out.
Because that’s what it looked like they were doing.
Andy:
it did look like it, yeah. That’s how I was thinking. As he’s had a minute and a half time and said to him, right boys, we’re in front, we know we can defend, just part of us. And it was very, very, it was disappointing because, you know, when you’re at home, you should be looking to put the game beyond the opposition.
And we didn’t do that. And it was, it was, I mean, you’re right. I mean, the goalie was, their goalie was a spectator for the 20, 25 minutes in the second half.
George:
Have you picked it out of the back of the net, yeah?
Andy:
Yeah.
George:
The other marvellous thing about yesterday, which I enjoyed both times, it happened was Harrison got beyond the fullback to play a right footed cross from the right hand side. That was hope that made him feel good.
First time he’s done that in ages. That was positive. And, you know, my thoughts immediately go to because I’m not in Liverpool and I’m not a Scouser but it would be so sweet. If we keep a clean sheet on Wednesday night and squinny up Liverpool’s dreams of the premiership so that all all those blue boys can go to work on Thursday morning going.
That would be sweet. Well, I think the the Evertonian fans, especially in Liverpool deserve that for their own stoicness and courage under fire all season. I mean, whether we’ll get it or not, if the two teams play to form, it should be four or five nil.
And the notion that he might pick Ashley Young to mark, Mr Diaz is crazy, but we’ll see. You might have no choice if Seamus isn’t fit.
Paul:
I’m just going to say, you know, what is the option?
George:
Godfrey is the only option but I imagine, I don’t know , what do you think of the match?
Paul:
I mean obviously two desperately poor sides. I thought we tried to play a little bit more football than we have been doing in recent games. Maybe it’s because Jordan Pickford’s form in kicking the ball has not been quite as good as it has been in recent times.
Maybe we sort of dropped that idea. For example, Brant Wait’s work down the left for the first goal was just exemplary.
George:
Yeah.
Paul:
the way he strode out of defence, you know, and sort of some nice, really nice interplay, nice passing. And for that brief moment, we looked at you look like a side that knew how to play football. Not that we remember that very often, but it was it was a poor game to poor sides, very, very poor referee, I thought, over the whole game, you know, we were playing coach.
You know, if you put your if you put your hat on, that says you’re a middle aged guy who’s seen football in the 60s and 70s, none of them ever looked like a penalty, then there’s you’ve got a lot of credibility in that argument.
If you put your 25 year old hat on, who’s only ever come up with football which being played in the last 15 years, and now particularly with VAR, you can see why there is a case for each to be a penalty.
So I thought we were pretty lucky to get away with all three. And we would have been desperately unlucky if we’d have conceded probably more than one of them. And but I could I could see the argument why you’d be quite obsessive, you’re not in the Forest.
And you and you weren’t you weren’t given them because I think you could point to 100 examples across the season elsewhere where they would be given. Yes, of course. But then that reflected that not only the inefficiencies and the inconsistencies that exist within VAR, you know, it was just a it was just a terrible refereeing performance all around it.
And the referee never had control over the game at once. And sort of Nottingham Forest really, before we talk about everything, Nottingham Forest really disappointed me, I, I’ve always had a bit of a soft spot for Nottingham Forest, probably goes back to the Brian Clough days.
And I never as a kid, never quite understanding the song We Hate Nottingham Forest. Only because maybe it was just because it happened to be the one team that fitted into the into the tune. But I never they played in red, obviously, and they they beat us a fair number of times and they weren’t two European cups.
But I always used to quite like them. I used to. Nottingham is a bit of a strange place from my point of view. I sort of used to think it was a great, you know, it was a good place to be and nearly went to university there.
And then in the minor strike, I got a completely different idea about the people, people, good people of Nottinghamshire. And yes, they sort of, that sort of came back to me a little bit. Thought that I thought the behaviour of the fans when, gosh, my best story when, when Beto was on the floor and they’re singing their disgusting feet, the scouser song was just totally uncalled for.
And very, very disappointing. There was a player who’s obviously could have been thankfully, doesn’t appear to be, but could have been very seriously injured. And the reaction of some of the Everton players and indeed some of the Nottingham Forest players at the time suggested that it could have been a really serious injury.
And maybe you could argue that the viewing points at Goodison for the away fans is not great. But I think that would be being extraordinarily generous in saying that. I just thought I just thought it was very distasteful.
It was a rubbish game. Two good goals. One great save by Pickford. We might look back at the end of the season and say for the third season on the run, Pickford has pulled out a moment where he’s kept us in the division, because it was a, it was a stunning block, if not saved.
And he did incredibly well. He’s been incredibly brave. But other than that, there’s really nothing I would hate it. And I know, Andy, you do the magnificent matchday reports. I would hate it to have been a reporter at that game.
And that is saying, give me 400 words of copy on that place.
Andy:
Yeah, well, I mean, I mean, you just said that the goal, the goals were well made and well taken and Pickford made a terrific save. And there wasn’t a great deal else in the game, actually. I mean, I think, I think, to be fair to the, to the first half, when we did try and play a little bit of football, I think that was because of, personally, I think that was because of the inclusion of Gomes, who whilst his dead balls were awful, a couple of three kicks each up, and a couple of corners each up were dreadful.
His overall play and use of the ball was better than anything else we’ve had in midfield for quite a number of weeks.
Paul:
I would agree with that, Andy. I think he’s definitely added something, or he’s certainly against Nottingham Forest anyway, he added something that’s been sadly missing from our midfield for a long time.
I mean clearly he’s got no pace, but he positions himself well, he can pass the ball, he’s available on the half turn. How many years have we talked about Everton players not being available on the half turn?
He can still do that quite naturally, albeit he doesn’t have the… I think he’s still quite physical, he just doesn’t have the pace, does he? I mean he’s very effective at getting himself between the ball and the opposition player, and he wins quite a lot of fouls for us on that basis.
Is he worth £100,000 a week, is he worth an extension to his contract at the end of this season? No, sure.
George:
I’m trying to at the end of the season.
Paul:
Yeah.
George:
All right. and who, presumably, those decisions are down to Dyche and Noel.
George:
Yes.
Andy:
down to the accountants.
George:
Yeah. Good point, Andy.
Paul:
Well, I mean, there is an argument for, I think there is an argument for giving, you know, if Gomes stays fit for the last few games of the season, he’s certainly made a contribution to the final third of the season, or maybe the final course of the season.
And there might be an argument for giving him an extension to his contract, albeit on different terms, because if we get rid of him, or if we let him go, you have to consider what the replacement cost is for somebody else.
George:
Who else’s contract is up at the end of the season?
Paul:
Oh, there’s about seven or eight, um, George, and, uh, my brain is frazzled today, because I’ve just been working solidly on other things. If you give me a second, I’ll pull it up, talk amongst yourselves, and I’ll pull it up and let you know.
George:
Well, it.
You can imagine ever thinking, no, no, let’s keep going, as you won’t get any slower.
Andy:
Well, I don’t know. I don’t know. I mean, I like Gomes as a footballer, but he’s got no pace about him. Probably up against maybe half the teams in the Premier League, he can still, he probably still could do a job, whether he could do it for 90 minutes, week in, week out.
That’s the big grey area for Andre Gomes.
George:
Yeah, I think you’re right. I think it’s best an hour. I thought I was pleased I choked him because he’d run out of gas.
Andy:
And we’ve got, you know, we’ve got, I mean, we’ve got all the games coming up as well. And if he’s if he is bit again, and he’s playing relatively well, like I said, take us take out this dead ball situations that were dreadful is in play play, if you like, was was okay.
Andy:
He did fine.
George:
You imagine Liverpool and their midfield that Deutsch will start Onana and Ghana, James Garner just for gas, just for energy.
Paul:
That, well, I think that doesn’t depend to a degree on whatever the unknown or the actual relationship is.
George:
Why has that gone pear -shaped as well?
Paul:
I think there’s one or two indications that Onana is perhaps not Dyche’s favorite player at this moment in time. Oh, I don’t know. Yeah. So to answer your question, Lonergan is out of contract in the summer.
Ashley Young is out of contract in the summer. Seamus Coleman is out of contract. Andrew Gomes, obviously, we just said. Idrissa Ghana Gueye is out of contract in the summer. Danjuma is out of contract in the summer, obviously.
Jack Harrison, obviously. Yeah, that’s it.
Andy:
Right.
Paul:
Oh, Dele Ali as well, sorry.
Andy:
Right. Well, we ain’t going to be seeing anything in Dele Ali
George:
No.
Paul:
And when is Paterson’s, Paterson’s is 2027, so he’s still got something.
George:
Patterson’s got a neck injury that’s going to take ages.
Paul:
Yeah, but he’s out for the summer, isn’t he? So it won’t be until the beginning of next season.
George:
Euros, it’s got some money.
Paul:
No, no, you won’t, definitely not. So you won’t, you won’t be. But yeah, we’ve got, I mean, you could call all of the players, pretty much all of the players I’ve just mentioned, dead wood, but we’ve got a lot of players leaving in the summer.
George:
Yeah.
Paul:
Do they give Seamus another year? He’s 35.
George:
I’m not concerned about him. I’d definitely give him another year. No, they kept picking Maldini till he was 39 and they were right. I don’t see any drop -off particularly in what Seamus brings to the people.
Andy:
I think a lot depends on whether there’s any, whether there’s a right back coming through the ranks. If there’s a right, I mean with Patterson injured and if he’s going to be out all summer, is he going to be ready for the starter next season?
Andy:
Ashley Young’s 38, knocking on 39. If we gave Young an extension that I’d just give up, sorry.
Paul:
I can’t see a scenario where knowing that Patterson is out, at least until the beginning of next season, whereby the next two people who can play right back, Coleman and Young, both leave the club.
George:
Thank you.
Andy:
then surely, if you’re going to keep one of them, then surely you’ve got a word on the age side in Coleman’s Younger.
George:
That’s it.
Andy:
Oh, yeah.
George:
There’s a better fallback.
Andy:
Well, it is an actual position, isn’t it?
Paul:
And no doubt, even though it shouldn’t necessarily be a fact, that there will be some people thinking that wouldn’t it be lovely to see Seamus walk the team out at Bramley Moore the following season.
George:
Yep.
Andy:
I think we have to start taking this emotion out of it.
Andy:
I’ve got the greatest respect for Seamus Coleman. He’s been a terrific servant for Everton Football Club, but there’s no, you know, at the end of the day, if we get to Bramley-Moore, then it’s got to be the best, the best 11 possible, not you can’t get extended contract just for that sentiment.
No, I’m sorry.
Paul:
I think it’s quite interesting because Coleman has entered into this conversation himself hasn’t he? Whether or not this sort of thing about there being a Hall of Fame and whether Coleman because of his service to the club deserves to be in the so-called Hall of Fame and his view is well probably not because I’ve never actually won anything while I’m at the club.
George:
That’s what he said. Yeah. He would, wouldn’t he?
Andy:
Yes, because he’s a, he seems a very honourable guy.
Paul:
And I’ve got my tendency to lean towards his way of thinking on that. I mean, it’s a slightly different argument because you know, it’s nothing to do with whether he stays next season or not.
Paul:
But, you know, I know he’s loved and I know that anybody who’s ever met him, such got a wonderful guy, he is in the work that he does off the pitch and everything else. But that’s not necessarily the criteria for having a successful football club, is it?
Andy:
new. Unfortunately, we need winners.
George:
Well, either that or when you open the Hall of Fame, you have a long corridor going, which is titled the wilderness years. And there is Seamus Coleman, who was the shining example of courage under fire.
And a few other people as well, who won nothing. But, you know, gave their heart and soul to the gig.
Andy:
Hmm, sadly too many.
George:
Yeah, you know, a lot of people are good as in parts.
He could be gone again for one month, you guys.
Andy:
Say what bro, you’ve broken up then.
George:
Oh, sorry, would you keep Idrissa again for one more season?
Andy:
I’m sure, you know, I said
Paul:
I think it depends upon what the status of the club is going to be at the end of the season.
Andy:
At the end of the day, all those decisions are going to come down to where on earth the club is, who’s the owner is, what are the state of the finances, can we afford to keep some of these guys who are on big money, and how many of the golden assets, the likes of Brantford and Pickford are still going to be here because they might have to be sold to keep the club afloat.
George:
wouldn’t all right let’s talk about that but let’s talk properly my bet Andy is none of those three people you just mentioned will be here they’ll all have to be sold
Andy:
Yeah. All. Just to keep the club afloat. Yeah, exactly.
Paul:
I think two out of the three will be sold. I think Pickford will be retained. Right. I don’t think he necessarily will want to move anyway. But I don’t see it, I don’t see us kicking off in mid-August with Onana and Branthwaite still being Everton players sadly.
George:
Yeah. Thank you.
Paul:
Regardless of what happens with the takeover, which no doubt we’ll get on to, and regardless of what division we end up playing in, thankfully, you know, the one big positive that came out of the games over the weekend is that it’s more likely now that we will stay in the Premier League than it seemed for quite some time.
Andy:
Well, results certainly went our way, didn’t they, with Luton getting topped by Brentwood.
Paul:
yeah and you know the fact that we’ve won two home games on the run and we’ve got two more home games
George:
in front of us.
Andy:
Yeah.
George:
And we’re going to win both of them.
Andy:
Well, I love the confidence, bro. But I was just going to say, if we could take four points from the next two games, then we probably could breathe a whole lot easier.
Paul:
Yeah, I mean, we’re off the wall.
Andy:
It’d be disappointing to have to settle for a draw with the RS, but there you go.
George:
Just to get the four points you mean.
Andy:
Yeah.
Paul:
I think all Evertonians deserve a victory against Liverpool for so many reasons on Wednesday. The fact that it would be Klopp’s last derby being one of the very biggest.
George:
Give us your two minutes on Jurgen Klopp, please.
Andy:
No.
George:
Good for you Andy, because it would have all got bleeped out and censored anyway.
Andy:
We’re not here to talk the Reds.
George:
Okay, no, no, you just, you know, I think he’s brought a great deal to the city. I’ve got a lot of time for the man.
Paul:
He is stepping into dangerous territory, George.
George:
I’ll shut up. I hope he gets stuffed on Wednesday night. That’ll be cool. Because I’m tired of him, you know, showing those teeth like a piano lid opening, going, oh, we beat you again. That would be lovely to stuff it up in.
Paul:
a fantasy set a bit more than anybody else.
George:
I’m not, you know, actually , you know, given the state of Everton football, I’m not sure anybody else except the fans deserve it.
Paul:
Yeah, I mean to all but secure Premier League status by beating Liverpool and at the same time probably negating any chance they’ve got of winning the Premier League and also for it to be Klopp’s last game at Goodison would be a pretty powerful combination of things I think.
George:
Yeah, let’s do Chalk in the Blues on Thursday night, and we’ll do it now. Good evening, guys.
Paul:
And look, they’re not in the greatest of form and we’ve got two home wins on the run now, so who knows? Goodison will be bouncing and the fans did a great job before the game, 1878s again, with the banners and everything else.
Andy:
Fair play to those guys. Those guys have gone above and beyond in the last couple of years, particularly this year. They should be in the Hall of Fame if we’re having a Hall of Fame. Every single one of them?
Andy:
The effort that they’ve put in, in keeping the crowd motivated, it’s been outstanding, second to none. This is three years on the trot we’ve been in this situation. It’s just ridiculous. We’ve said it before, or I’ve said it before, that we’ve gone to the well once too often.
We’re drawing on that well again. Thanks to those guys in the 1878s, the buckets going to the bottom of the well and coming up full.
Paul:
I think there’s no doubt about their ability to, you know, get themselves organised and to remain consistently positive in the face of huge adversity. And even to remain positive about the interactions that they’ve had with the club, which I find it slightly strange that it might have happened, but I’ll take the word for it.
The one thing I would say is that the campaigning that people have done, and obviously I’ve been part of it in previous years about the ownership of the club, maybe we just don’t have the capacity to haul the players up from the, you know, the positions they find themselves in year in year out to secure Premier League football and still at the same time hold the board and hold the owner to account.
Because for me, the behaviour is, as bad as the behaviour of the previous board was last year, you know, the Southampton game and all it went thereafter, for me, the performance and the behaviour of the owner and the board itself this year has been the most disgraceful example of cowardice and lack of governance and lack of caring for the people who really count.
George:
Mmm.
Paul:
and I think that hasn’t got enough attention and I hope at some point between now and the end of the season, possibly after we’ve guaranteed survival in the Premier League for yet another season, that attention is drawn to this and that those people, far administration, the board members, the executive, the people responsible for the way that the club is run, for the people who are responsible for the way that things are communicated about the club to the fans.
That the fans actually make them, as I have done previously, make them aware of how they really feel about these people because I think their behaviour has been an absolute disgrace, absolutely disgusting and I’ve said very little about that in recent months because the focus has been on making sure that we stay in the Premier League, doing whatever we, whatever I and other people can do to keep 777 away from the club but there is, from my perspective, the behaviour of the club, the board, the executive this year has been worse than it has been at any time in the past.
George:
You know a good deal more about this and I’m going to defend them to the point that it was the behavior of the board up to and including the club to the board in a position where they’re helpless, where they’re shipping water, all the time now.
George:
I don’t think they behave well. I do think they could have been more honest and treated as people in power. I’ll do that. But I think the greater blame for the state of Everton Football Club today lies 10 years back from here.
Paul:
Oh, I’m not giving the previous owner a free pass, George, by any stretch. And I think you’re right that a lot of the behaviours and a lot of the expectations and a lot of how fans are viewed stems from from the period that Bill Kenwright was in control of the club.
George:
Thank you.
Andy:
Sorry, George.
Paul:
Don’t your phone’s messing up. You faded away then.
George:
I think the financial mess we’re in lies at that door as well and I don’t see how Colin Chong and the man who lives in Essex could have done anything about it since they’re faced with years and years of mismanagement and finally the league has caught up with us and gone right we’re gonna wrap your knuckles good and hard now but having said that I would repeat that I do think they’ve been I think the word coward is correct they could somebody should have come out and gone right this is what’s going on and this is what we’re trying to do about it but they didn’t give us the credit for that even that we could take that kind of information or and and so those of us who the Everton fans who assume that they don’t care about us you know there’s nothing to prove that that’s not true which is awful situation for an organization to be in.
Paul:
Yes, I mean, it’s also not only the board and the executive and current owner. It’s the other people that have been involved in the running and the ownership of the club. So it’s the likes of MSP, it is the likes of rights and media funding.
It is the likes of 777, who all have hidden behind “We can’t possibly talk about this because it’s confidential, or we can’t possibly talk about this because it’s commercial, commercially sensitive”.
Well, yes, I think if things are working to plan, and they say, this is all going to be resolved in 10 weeks or 12 weeks, and it is all resolved in 10 or 12 weeks, then they can probably justify the silence.
But I think once it gets beyond that stage, and the evidence builds from outside the club, not from within the club, but from outside the club, the evidence is provided by journalists and by other people in the industry and by some fans, as that body of evidence builds, and there’s nothing from the club, either to deny or confirm that evidence, and nothing to say what all of this means, you know, what the potential dangers of the club, the closest we’ve got to anything that represents anything close to the truth, as far as Mshiri saying that there was an existential threat to the club.
He didn’t explain what the threat was. He didn’t explain what his role was in that threat. And most importantly, he didn’t explain how he was going to resolve that threat, or mitigate that threat. And nobody, nobody in 14 months since he made that comment, 15 months, in fact, nobody in that period has ever done that.
And I think I think it is an absolute disgrace. And I’ll say that for the rest of my days.
Andy:
to gross their election of duty.
George:
It was a cloud of bullshit when he said it. The minute he said it, you knew that that’s what it was. You know, if you’d have said, oh, really, blimey, what is it, Farhad? He would have just waffled some more.
All he was doing was buying himself time. And now what he was doing with the time, I don’t know. But I mean, I think as soon as he said it, he just go, oh, leave off. Just don’t patronise me. Stop it.
An existential crisis. He’s that effing existential crisis.
Paul:
Yeah, because he’s got us into this position. His version of what the solution should be only accentuates the problem. It doesn’t resolve the issues at all.
George:
No. What you’re actually saying about treatise as members of the club, treatise as part of the, that’s true and it hurts. It hurts that what you’re saying is correct. I mean, I don’t mind you saying it, you know what I mean.
I just feel ashamed of the way Everton have behaved, that nobody has had the class to stand up, you know, build, stand up when you’ve had good times and everything will be all right in a bit. Far has gone, there’s an existential crisis, but nobody’s actually stood up and gone, we’re in the do -do here boys and girls.
Thank you very much.
Paul:
I think George, it goes beyond just telling the fans, as important as it is, telling the fans. I know in particular your huge advocate had dashed. I think it’s been very unfair on him that he’s had to carry the players and the fans and the club and all the people that worked at the club, and sometimes justify the unjustifiable.
Whether he’s privy to all of the information or not, and he’s probably not privy to all of the information, he’s had to present a scenario, a picture, a view of where the club is that he himself probably knows is nowhere near the truth, even if he doesn’t exactly know what the truth itself is.
And as much as he says that’s all outside noise, and I understand why he says it’s all outside noise, it can’t have helped any of the players, it can’t have helped him, it can’t have helped any of the staff, it can’t have helped Kevin Thelwell.
Anybody associated with the football club has been through the most terrible of times in this last, well, a long period of time, but particularly since Farhad Moshiri sort of held his hands up and said, I’m no longer running in this club, I just want out.
George:
, and this is not meant to sound clever, they’ve been in an existential crisis. The people who actually are employed by Everton Football Club have to hold their heads up. And you’re right about Deutsch, he’s just, you know, I imagine on his list of priorities, one goes to protect the players as best I can.
Yeah. Yeah.
Paul:
Which is interesting, isn’t it, because in a very different manner, Pep Guardiola’s arguments about the fixture list and the way that the FA Cup semi-finals were scheduled, was couched very much in slightly changing the subject, was couched very much in how can he possibly protect his players when they play 120 minutes in a European Cup Champions League semi -final, and then three days later they’re playing at Wembley in a Cup semi -final.
Andy: Crocodile tears please.
He’s got a massive squad. He’s got the best squad in the Premier League. And he’s whining. I’m sorry, I’m tired. I’m tired of Pep Guardiola and his holier than thou attitude that he puts out. You know, he’s an extremely successful manager.
He’s a club that’s got a bottomless bit of money that he continues to spend year on year. And now he’s whining that they’ve got to play two games in four or five days. I seem to remember Everton winning the European Cup winner’s cup on the Wednesday night in Rotterdam and having to play a cup final on the Saturday.
Paul: Not only that, we played three games in the week before. Yes, we did.
Andy:
But, you know, I’m sorry, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m fed up with these people whining about everything. And I know Arteta came out and supported him. Well, big surprise. I’m sorry, but these guys are at the very top of the game.
They’ve got the most money. They’ve got the biggest squads. They’ve got the best players. You’re playing so many games because you’ve got the best players. You can’t have it both ways. You want an easier schedule, drop out of a competition.
He wants to win everything and suck it up, pal. You’re going to have to play more games. Tough. Every other team would like to be in the same position.
Paul:
See, I took a slightly different view than that, to be honest. I acknowledge totally the competitive advantages that Manchester City have, both in terms of their squad and the resources available to them.
And I know it’s part of Pep Guardiola and mind games. Sir Alex Ferguson used to play so successfully. You know, the world is against us. I get all of that. But I think he’s pointing to a much bigger issue within the game than just Manchester City and, you know, the inevitable fixture congestion at the end of the season.
He’s pointing to the fact that there are now gonna be more FIFA games than ever before, more international games than ever before. There’s now gonna be more Champions League games than ever before.
Everybody expects it at the end of the season. And in fact, you know, everything even talked about in their annual accounts that our commercial revenue went up by virtue of the fact that we had a successful tour at the end of the season.
It’s become a big part of the club’s commercial operations that they go to Australia or they go to the Far East or they go to America and they play a number of games there in the mid-winter breaks that they go to.
To the Middle East for warm weather training. That’s, did they go to the Middle East for warm weather training? Did we go to Portugal for warm weather training or did we go because perhaps there was a commercial opportunity attached to it?
And I just think at two different levels, you’ve got the custodian role of the people that I’ve just been criticising at Everton Football Club in terms of they don’t, they haven’t looked after the football club, they haven’t looked after any of the interested parties, the players, the managers, the people who work at the club and the fans and also all of the commercial sponsors at the club in any sense because they don’t communicate and all of that sort of stuff.
And then at a different level of the game, at the administrative level of the game, the people who run all the competitions, they don’t care, they don’t care about, we know they don’t care about the fans because why would you be playing in London at eight o ‘clock on a Friday evening or whatever ridiculous time fixes are now played?
They’re not acting as custodians of the game because all they see is the immediate benefits of more money as a result of playing more games, as a result of having a bigger television audience globally because there’s now more Champions League games, et cetera, et cetera.
Nobody is sitting back and saying, we’ve got something that’s really, just like you should do with the football club, but actually talking about football itself, you’ve got something here that’s really special, that’s really valuable that if we nurture this thing and if we look after it for many, many years ahead, it can only get bigger, it can only get better, sorry.
It doesn’t necessarily need to get bigger, it can just get better. Whereas all we’ve got here is a group of people at every level of the game on a mad dash for growth, because in the short term, the mad dash for growth means more money.
George:
That’s exactly where we’re at. And you don’t need me to tell you that they all, I mean, Pep and Arteta, Andy, I think Andy’s right, shut your gob. But we’ve played too much football. So bin the Caribo key cup, except of course, they’ve paid the sponsors forever to have it.
Bin the FA Cup, because that’s, you know, only in, they’ve got to play less football. And what will happen is that they will form a European Super League, which will take the place of the Champions League.
Andy:
Bro, this extension of the Champions League is in effect this Super League. Yeah, it seems. Why do they have to extend the Champions League?
George:
so that they can force the super league to happen Andy? It’s a complete
Andy:
Misnomer anyway.
Paul:
The Super League, I think the Super League is happening. I’m with Andy on this point. Yeah, me too. And if you look at it, why would they do it? Well, obviously that more games equals more money because it’s more revenue, more opportunities to have the game on TV, therefore more commercial partners and everything else.
But it’s also the way that European football is set up. And we touched upon this a few months ago. And I think it’s, this idea is totally unrepresented in the press, that the way European football is set up now, European football is becoming such a revenue generator that it does actually compete with domestic leagues.
And certainly outside of the Premier League is now, for a small number of clubs, more important in revenue terms than the domestic leagues are. But it’s the way it’s set up and the way that success is rewarded, success domestically and success in European competitions means that you earn more money than anybody else.
And as a result of earning more money than anybody else, you get a higher coefficient than anybody else, which means that next year, your path to success, instead of being made more difficult because you’re the defending champions, is actually made easier because you’re the co -efficient relative to everybody else.
And the co -efficient is the measure by which they rank teams across all European competitions. As a result of the success that you have had, as a result of the success that your league has had, even as a result of the success that your domestic league has had in paying its European TV revenues, all adds to making the league less competitive for you and more difficult for those that have achieved less success.
So the whole thing is the complete reverse of what is actually logical. And what is logical is that you create a much better competition at the end of the day by making it easier for people to compete, people who haven’t achieved success in the past, and making it more difficult for those that are successful to retain that success.
That’s what drives standards forward. What we’ve got now is a situation where both in the Premier League through the big six, but now also in Europe through those that constantly are in the Champions League and those that are constantly in the quarterfinals, the last eight semi -finals and finals, is that we’ve got a system that almost, first of all, almost guarantees that they’re going to be the teams that appear at the back end of the competition.
But also that they get rewarded more for appearing there, and the task of getting there is made easier year on year because your coefficient improves. The whole thing is completely and utterly bonkers.
George:
That’s a kind word to use and it also means that they’ll buy a brand sweat.
Andy:
and on the back of them, extending the Champions League and everything that you just said, , it has this detrimental effect on the oldest cup competition in football, the FA Cup. The competition that’s got probably the most romance about it in any sport, any sport, the FA Cup and now
George:
Well, they’ve just gutted it, Andrew.
Andy:
Well exactly, they’ve gutted it, you know, no replays.
George:
Because no, no, the whole point of the FA Cup was that Maidstone got to go to Man United. Exactly.
Andy:
It’s a cash generator for those smaller clubs. One good tie for a Maidstone or a Lincoln City or a Sutton United can finance them for a season or more.
George:
Who has made that decision, which organization?
Andy:
Well, from what came out last week, it appears that the Premier League have more or less engineered the decision with precious little redress to the football league or the English football.
Paul:
Football Association, yeah.
Andy:
Yeah, and because I mean, the statements that came out that there were two in particular, Trami Rovers and Grimsby Town issued really good statements.
George:
And Accrington Stanley were going to boycott it.
Yeah.
That’ll bring me out to God’s point.
Andy:
But, you know, the FA Cup is, the FA Cup now will just become, well, become what the Premier League is. It’s a procession for three or four clubs to win it season on season, rather than have the chance of somebody going a long way into the competition, you know, like Chesterfield did a few years ago, like Metz did to some degree.
George:
Or Coventry, for God’s sake. Or Coventry, yeah.
Paul:
Yeah, one of the best games of football, and I don’t watch many games of football outside of Everton, one of the best games of football I’ve seen in many, many years was the United Coventry game yesterday.
Andy:
The second half was superb.
Paul:
Yeah, you know, thrilling stuff and we could go back and we could talk about, well, you know, the fact that VAR, VAR, which Coventry don’t normally operate on because they’re not in the Premier League, destroyed their day.
Paul:
But as a spectacle, as a game of football, it had absolutely everything.
George:
Mm -hmm.
Paul:
and surely that should be valued. This idea that you have no replays in the FA Cup because teams that are in European competitions no longer have times in their schedules. Forgive me for saying this, no teams in European competitions, no teams in the 1st and 2nd, or Premier League and 1st Division enter the FA Cup until the 3rd round anyway.
George:
Yeah.
Paul:
So what’s the logic in not having, I mean there should be no logic in not having replays anyway, but what’s the logic in not having replays in the first and second round, and in any of the preliminary rounds before that?
George:
But you know what the answer is, , the money is in the Premiership and in the European Champions League. The FA Cup leads into the Mickey Mouse tournament that none of those big six clubs are going to be in or are interested in.
So frig it, sod it, just shut up, just stop annoying us by making us play replays against Sutton United, it’s boring. We don’t want it, we’ve got the power, shut up.
Paul:
But 4,000 Southend United fans want it, or whatever the figure is.
George:
You know what I’m saying. No, I do.
Paul:
I do. I get it totally. We’re going to all agree with each other. Most of the people listening to this podcast will probably agree. But we’re not going to be able to do anything about it.
Andy:
Well then football is in the throes of destroying itself.
Paul: Absolutely handy. in danger of killing the goose that lays the garden out.
Andy:
Well, it’s it’s turning fans off that the reaction to that announcement last week Was as strong as anything that we’ve seen for a long time right across the sphere of football And people are turning off this there’s any number of comments on social media and on various forums that fans are getting tired of it and You know considering walking away from football because it’s not what it was.
Andy:
It’s not the fun it used to be. It’s you know, the level of enjoyment isn’t there any longer I mean, I’ve I mean how many times have I said on here in the last few weeks? I’ve given all the watching Highlights in the Premier League.
Andy:
I’d rather watch the English football league highlights because a you get every game You don’t get mindless mind -numbing idiotic punditry And you’re seeing some some great entertainment Some excellent entertainment that isn’t there Gaming game out in the Premier League is certain games that become a procession Another game sadly, you know, too many of ours have been that way recently that have just been like listening to paint dry People get people are going to get fed up with it and you know the destruction If you like of the of the fa cup could be could be the straw that breaks the camel’s back it really could
George:
I think there’s a generational thing though Andy. I think you’re right and I think you’re talking for an awful lot of people. But the people who we would like to listen to what we’re saying are going, nah, don’t worry about it.
George:
There’s a whole new generation of young fans coming through. They don’t care about the FA Cup. Tradition, what’s that? It’s for you. Go.
Well.
And we’re all junkies.
Andy:
I probably shouldn’t say this but the sooner fans stop going then and bite the authorities in the ass by not turning up the better. The trouble is they’re making so much money out of TV anyway, you don’t give a toss about the fans who do go.
George:
Well, said ages and ages ago.
Andy:
moving games around to ridiculous kick-off times, just to suit TV schedules endlessly. They don’t give a toss about the fans who book flights to come in from Northern Ireland, or who book or wherever to watch, no Liverpool or United or City or whoever, they come in to watch.
Andy:
It doesn’t matter. People get a fixture list. You might as well just tear that fixture list up the day after it’s been printed, because a third of your games at least are gonna change. That’s absolutely so.
Paul:
I think you should be called a fixture guide.
Andy:
Yeah, rough outliers, you fix your outline.
Paul:
You will be playing 38 games next season, 19 of them will be at home, 19 of them will be away. We’ll let you know.
Andy:
Yeah and you’re going to be playing 38 games and if City and Liverpool go deep in the Champions League you’re going to be playing 36 of them in the space of 38 nights.
George:
and they will because they’re the money we want them to but again you know
Paul:
And football clubs are as bad as the people who run the game of football, in the sense that the whole system, the whole support, you know, being a supporter, being a match going to support, especially at those clubs that are guaranteed to sell out games, so Everton obviously being one of those examples, is now predicated on the idea that in order to attend a game, you have to be a season ticket holder.
In order to attend an Everton away game, unless you’ve got a friend who happened to start to be going, you have to have gone to the last 63 games in order to have enough credits in order to qualify for a ticket.
The clubs will argue that the fact that we’ve sold 31 ,000 season tickets this season, which is the maximum we’re allowed to sell by the Premier League, as a demonstration of their success. The fact that we always sell out 3 ,000 tickets or whatever the capacity is lower, for every away game, as a demonstration of its success and the appeal of the game.
It’s not, it’s a system that says if there are games that you want to go to, if you want to support Everton Football Club, this is what you have to do in order to be that supporter. It’s the people who run football clubs and the people who run the game of football, there are very very few of them.
Paul:
I’m sorry to say this because some of them are friends, but there are very few of them who are in any sense fit for purpose. They’re looking at the game through the wrong end of the telescope and it’s driven by the visuals of having a full house at every game.
So we don’t want to see empty seats because that doesn’t look good on television. It’s driven by how many times it can appear on television and it’s driven by if we’re a success, the competitions will actually make it easier for us to continue to be a success at the expense of everybody else.
And as a result, we generate more money. And as a result of generating more money, that means that we can spend more money on players’ wages and we can spend more money on players’ transfers. So it’s not even as if it’s a sustainable thing in the sense that they reinvest the success into the game itself.
They just don’t reinvest. They spend the money that their success generates on ever, ever increasing amounts in order to to buy the best talent. And that is at some point that becomes an unsustainable model.
And I think we’re very, very close to that becoming an unsustainable model.
Andy:
Maybe that’s why they’re going to change the criteria for profit and sustainability rules.
Paul:
accentuates the problem, that makes the problem even more difficult.
Andy:
Well, it makes a nonsense of it because they’ve punished two clubs under one set of rules, then they’re going to change the rules. Are they going to punish more under the new set of rules, or is it just being done to absolve other clubs from being punished?
Andy:
I mean, what’s the crap with Chelsea? Chelsea is selling a hotel in order to comply with profit and sustainability, and yet Everton get chucked up, but their interest payments on building another stadium.
At least Everton are putting the money into football and developing another stadium.
Paul:
and that changed into, you know, the redevelopment and the commercial, you know, the economic redevelopment of the city of Liverpool.
Andy:
Yeah, but the football authorities don’t give a rat’s ass about that, do they?
Paul:
and know that, you know, we would talk about football being a community asset.
Andy:
The clubs try to act as a community asset individually, with the charities and the work they do in the community, but the football authorities don’t give a toss.
Paul:
See, you say this is a wide ranging conversation and probably not one for talking the blues. But if you look at a city like Liverpool, what, what is a city like Liverpool got to offer the world?
It’s got its history, it’s got its heritage, it’s got its place in, you know, the development of global commerce in terms of the slave trade, its association with the industrial revolution, all that sort of stuff, which is meant that over the years, using man and wealth has been developed in there.
And that’s great, because that’s historical and so it’s a matter of fact, and it would draw people to the city just because it’s happened that culturally, Liverpool has probably offered more globally than any other city in, in the UK, I think.
I think so. You know, the arts, theatre, music, and sports, almost every aspect of culture, Liverpool can stand a big place in the history of that element of the culture. Academia, we can certainly do that.
There’s so many aspects of Liverpool as a city that, possibly more historically than currently, demonstrates its value, both to the city, to the UK, and to the world globally. But there’s no doubt about it, that sport is one of those biggest elements of our appeal as a global city.
And why aren’t the politicians, why aren’t the people working together to ensure that evidence ultimately has to be protected from itself? Liverpool are managed well enough not to need that protection.
But Everton, self-evidently over the last 30, 40 years, aren’t in that position. And yet it’s an asset, it’s a resource, it’s something that needs to be invested in for the future of the city. Yet, so few people, so very few people, are actually prepared to stand up and fight for something that both has historical value, current value, but also could have future value as well.
You know, you see Manchester bizarrely through Andy Burnham, who’s a blue, do everything that they possibly can do to support Manchester’s cultural assets, including their two football clubs. Birmingham, sort of more on the arts than they do on sports, but they couldn’t if they got the right to get on the sports.
You know, they’ve got several fantastic football clubs in the Midlands areas. London is a completely different scenario. The city of Liverpool is unique in that sense, that both Everton and Liverpool have such an enormous amount to offer both the city but also the country and everything that’s, you know, with regards to our cultural richness.
Yeah, to me, and maybe I’m just going off on a huge tangent here, nobody seems to care enough about, and I know people do care about our football club, the people that go home and away, blah, blah, blah.
But nobody seems to care enough about what’s happening to our future, our football club, and what it is going to be in the future. And if I take anything away from this season, at the end of the season, when we probably stay in the Premier League, and we possibly are still a solvent business, it’s that thought that at some point in the future, people might wake up, but they might wake up when it’s too late.
And they may only realize the value of what they had after it’s gone. And I think we’re very close to that position. And I’m sorry to sound like a, you know, a prophet of doom or whatever, but being privy to some of the conversations I’ve had in recent weeks, I genuinely, genuinely fear that that’s the case.
George:
You won’t feel like that on Wednesday night when we stuff here.
Paul:
But we should be stuffing Liverpool every time we play them, and the FA Cup final should be Everton versus Liverpool, the Champions League final should be Everton versus Liverpool. It shouldn’t be Manchester City versus Real Madrid.
Andy:
or who matters. Well it won’t be this year will it?
Paul:
No, you know the points I’m making. I do. And whilst Liverpool have got, you know, a reasonable expectation of appearing, at least in some of those end of season events, be it the Premier League or be it Champions League or FA Cup, whatever, we’re fighting for our breath, we’re fighting for our very survival.
And yet, from my perspective, not enough people either recognise it, realise it, and if they do, they don’t care enough about it.
Andy:
I’m sorry, close.
George:
Um…
Andy:
on that bombshell.
Paul:
I didn’t intend to get so deep into that, but…
George:
Good for you. It’s what you feel. It’s what it’s for.
Paul:
We’ve all got such an enormous passion. You think about it, you’re just getting too majorly philosophical. We’ve got enormous passions in our lives, our family. Some people’s passions are their work.
So, for example, George, when you were acting full time before, you semi -retired or retired. Your work was your passion. Andy, Everton, ice hockey, your family and other things, you know, your garden, nature, stuff like that.
And other things I probably don’t know about. You have your passions. But for all of us, the one common thing amongst us all, apart from the fact that we might like each other and share similar and common values about life in general, is Everton Football Club.
And that’s true of 40,000 match -going Evertonians, hundreds of thousands of Evertonians that live in the city of Liverpool, hundreds of thousands of Evertonians who live in the UK but don’t live in Liverpool, and probably millions of Evertonians that don’t live in the UK.
George:
Yeah.
Paul:
yet the amount of effort that goes into protecting this most precious of assets I don’t think is enough and if we’re not careful we will allow the people who’ve got us into this position to get us into a position that we can’t recover from and that for me is going to be the lesson of this season no matter what happens between now and the end of the season.
And looking forward assuming that we stay in the Premier League that we remain as a solvent business and we get through this 777 impasse is what we as a fan base have to address because otherwise we’ll just go through the same we might go through the same on the pitch next season as we’ve done for the last three seasons it might be better it might be worse who knows and we might get a fantastic new owner where all of our problems are solved or we might get our third successive idiots as a number
George:
Who knows?
Paul:
Sorry, I’ll get off my soapbox. No, you’re all right. Each week we find it a way of making the conversation more difficult.
George:
Oh, that’s what it is, being a blue right now.
Paul:
But somebody goes, I’m not saying it has to be me, I wish it wasn’t just, and it’s not just me, I know that, but more people have to say it, and more people have to recognise the position, a) that the club is in, and b) the position that football generally is in.
I agree with that. Ask themselves, you know, what can I, whatever I means, what can I do about it? Because the people that we’ve left to run our football club, and the people that we’re leaving to run football generally aren’t running it in our interests.
George:
I think that’s true.
Paul:
Thhre’s my manifesto for the week.
Andy:
Fair enough.
Paul:
Sorry, I stole his hands.
George:
Not at all, not at all. Just, you know, quite not what to say. But I will do it on Wednesday night.
Paul:
Cool. Isn’t that the oddity of it? All of that will be forgotten at 7.45 on Wednesday night.
George:
That’s the whole pull of it, that’s the yin and the yang of it all in one place.
Paul:
The Z -Cars will belt out and Spirit of the Blues, they’re sat in the other, and yeah, it’ll be getting to them. Yeah, these are sh*te.
George:
hahaha
Andy:
That’s the one.
Paul:
That’s it. Guys, thanks for listening to me.
George:
you
Andy:
So I think we’ve all had a bit of a run today.
Paul:
And for those that are listening elsewhere, I hope you got to the end of it and I hope you appreciate where the message is coming from.
Andy:
do feel free to comment.
Paul:
Well, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Andy:
That’s what we’re here for. Stimulating debate. Don’t say that, Andy. Oh, okay.
Paul:
Alright guys, look forward to Wednesday and score predictions, George.
George:
3 -1. If he doesn’t get picked, I hope he gets picked, because I can’t bear the idea of Ashley Young marking Lewis Diaz. He’s finally going to get his first goal for the club.
Paul:
at the club.
George:
clean sheet I mean just settle for a clean sheet forget a clean sheet that’s cool
Andy:
Yeah, one nil, Van Dijk own goal, that’ll do.
George:
Yeah, that’ll be lovely. Go on.
Paul:
Alright, I’m gonna go for a classic 1 -0.
George:
All right.
Paul:
Take two.
Andy:
I don’t know who’s going to score, but… Pickford with a penalty. Pick the bones out of this, Alison Becker. Boom.
Paul:
but it might be windy and he might do a Tim Howard.
Andy:
It could do, yeah. Tim Howard will get his ball. Ball, yeah. That was the night before I went to Sudan. Yeah, well.
Paul:
Well, talk about leaving on a high, Andy.
George:
Hahahaha
Paul:
What a bizarre goal that was.
Andy:
Yeah, we lost the game though.
Paul:
lost the goal but they lost the game but I just remember watching it and the ball just hung in the air forever and then it was like you know I hate tennis but it was like a top spin wasn’t it so like off the ground when it hit the ground yeah amazing
George:
Mainly.
Paul:
Alright, guys, thanks very much. Enjoyed that. Even if nobody else did, I enjoyed it. I feel better anyway.
George:
Thank you so much.
Paul:
Thank you for the therapy session that cheque is in the post and we’ll speak to you after Wednesday. Cheers, Cheers, guys. Bye, guys.
Categories: Transcript