For those who find listening to our regular Talking the Blues Podcast difficult or prefer to read the transcript, here’s the latest Talking the Blues, recorded and published on 30th May 2024. Thanks for reading or listening:

Paul: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, depending upon where in the world you are, and what time of the day you’re listening to this first post -season, I think, or first certainly seasons now ended Talking the Blues podcast, George and Andy, it’s been a little while since we spoke. I hope you both well, and well, how are you both?

Andy: Thank you very much.

George: Yeah, that kind of grumbled. Looking forward to hearing what you’ve got to tell us, frankly.

Paul: Could be a very short podcast.

George: Yeah, but you know, I mean, I’m sure I’m not the only Evertonian. My phone is full of, I think the word is crap about Everton. Every 10 minutes, Mark right, Ben right, somebody else right, waffling on about stuff.
So I’m kind of sure I’m not alone in looking forward to this postcard podcast to listen to you talk us through some of this stuff about who Jim Textor is and all that stuff.

Paul: So there is a guy that writes quite often about Everton. He’s called Never Right. OK, so relatively stress free, I think, given the fact that we’re now no longer playing football and the transfer window hasn’t opened.
The one massive issue, of course, is Everton’s ownership. And I know we’ve discussed this an awful lot during the season, where obviously we’ve talked about football, but almost inevitably the podcast has ended up with a discussion around ownership.

And for those who find that disturbing, I’m afraid at least at the beginning of the summer until the transfer window opens, we’re going to continue along that vein. So where are we?

Andy: Well, I think the probably the biggest question that people want to know is, is there any mileage in these stories of one of the part owners of Crystal Palace saying that he wants to sell his shares in Crystal Palace and buy it because he can’t he can’t have a foot in both camps.

He’s got to unload his shares in Crystal Palace. And correct me if I’m wrong, Paul, he’s been trying to sell them for over 12 months.

Paul: Well, he has. I mean, probably if this was just a private conversation between the three of us, I could probably say more, but John Textor is a very, very interesting character. He’s a good business person.

Paul: He’s had ups and he’s had downs. And if you go back to his early part of his life, he was a, first of all, a competitive skateboarder. So he skateboarded at the very highest levels. I’m not sure what the highest levels of skateboarding are, but he did so.

Paul: And then he became a… So, George?

George: It’s an Olympic sport.

Paul: probably not when he was a kid, but yeah, maybe now, and he was also a competitive snowboarder. So he definitely has a competitive gene within him. He’s always been a guy that has been at the forefront of technology.

Paul: So he’s invested a lot over the years, both invested well and invested badly, but that’s the nature of the game, I suppose, in technology. He’s made a lot of money with some companies and he’s made a lot of losses with other companies, but that is the nature of that type of investor.
Paul: So he’s certainly not a man that shies away from risk and he’s certainly not a man that shies away from the opportunity to present himself in public and have a lot of people talking about him, such as, for example, the three of us talking about him tonight.

George: Why does he want to buy Everton, as he said?

Paul: Well no he hasn’t and there’s a real problem with the idea that he wants to buy Everton because well let’s go back to the position that he’s in at the moment. So Crystal Palace, well run club, gone from being a yo -yo club to being a stable club in the sort of mid levels of the Premier League and with the graces of respect to any Crystal Palace fans that are listening to this podcast you know that is a major achievement I think for that football club given its history and given its resources and you know from my perspective actually I think Crystal Palace are one of the most attractive football clubs in the Premier League in footballing terms.

Paul: I think most games that involve Crystal Palace are interesting and they tend to find great players you know Sellers Park although it’s an awful ground to watch a game from if you’re a viewer on TV always has a tremendous atmosphere and it’s a bit of a throwback to the old days of football you know the days that the three of us often refer to and that many of our listeners refer to and enjoy.

Paul: So Palace is I think Crystal Palace is a great example out of how a traditional football club can not only exist but actually flourish in the modern game. They recruit well, they coach well, they tend to manage well even if the managers they bring in are not necessarily often referred to as flair managers but they produce I think they produce a brand of football that’s very attractive and I think the Premier League itself would be a less attractive product without them.
Paul: I think the Premier League needs clubs like Crystal Palace and I hope for many years ahead that Crystal Palace maintain their position in the Premier League whether they have a challenge for European football or not of course is a different matter.

Paul: Sorry Andy I think you were going to

Andy: No, I’m just going to say I think the big thing about Palace is whilst they’re not a giant club if you know compared Compared to the likes of you know, United and Chelsea and Arsenal and whatnot The thing about Palace in certainly in recent years is they’re always capable of a surprise result There’s no there’s no games that are a gimme Against Palace.

Andy: I mean we’ve got a decent record against Palace But they’re not averse to going elsewhere and I’m coming up with a coming up with a surprise result that That throws spanners in other people’s works and I think that’s I think that’s the good thing about Palace is You never quite know what you’re going to get with them Um, sometimes it can be average and other times it can be absolutely exhilarating And I think that’s that’s a real plus point for the uh for the top flight in this country is that it is You know, they are they are a side Um that’s capable of upsetting the apple car every now and again and long way continue Otherwise, it just becomes a procession

George: But do you imagine that, you know, people who really care about Crystal Palace, the workers there and the players and especially the fans are now, like we are, dredging the transfer window because Elie Eze and Eloise and there’s another boy who’s really good.

George: They’re just going to get cherry picked, aren’t they?
Andy: And there’s always that potential in there for probably 14 of the 20 clubs in the Premier League.

George: Exactly, Andy.

Andy: that they stand an awful chance of losing, as you said, they get cherry -picked. I guess the key when you’re in that kind of position is that if you reluctantly have to sell, or if a player asks for a move, that you go about your business in replacing them as efficiently and and smartly as possible, it’s when you get forced into a sale and then don’t replace properly and smartly.

Andy: Well, I was thinking more and more of ourselves. Yeah, like, you know, yeah, sorry. Yeah, we lose a charlatan and don’t replace him properly. We lost a car, can we didn’t replace him properly? You know, the list is endless.

Andy: And yet you look at the likes of and they’ve lost good players in the past, but they’ve managed to replace them. I mean, when they signed Edouard from Celtic, people said he’ll never blast in the Premier League because he’s only played at Celtic.
Andy: Well, I thought he had just did really well to the Premier League and he’s proven himself. And so that was a smart piece of recruitment. They got a player who was tried and tested the biggest goal and they had European experience.

Andy: And he’s fitted in really well at Crystal Palace. I think that was a smart piece of recruitment. And that’s what they do that as Paul said, they appear to be very well run and sensibly run, shall we say, as against certain other clubs.

Paul: So the relevance to Everton, then, is who is it that actually makes Crystal Palace a well -run club? And I agree with everything both you and Georgia just said, but the assumption that John Textor, who is the largest single shareholder of Crystal Palace, is the primary cause for Crystal Palace being a successful football club in the context of, you know, its revenue and its sort of historic position in the game is wrong.

Paul: Predominantly, the driver of Crystal Palace’s outperformance, and I don’t think any Crystal Palace fan would disagree with this in terms of outperformance, is actually Steve Parrish, who is the chairman of Crystal Palace.

Paul: He happens to be the smallest of the major shareholders. He only owns 8%. But he’s the guy that essentially drives the club. The three other larger shareholders, John Textor, 45%, Josh Harris, and David Blitzer, both own 18%.

Paul: They’re more passive. They are more what you’d call traditional shareholders. They invest in the club, and they leave the club to be managed by the people that they employ. Similar to the sort of, you know, the Liverpool model, in the sense that the investors invest, and then they leave very good people in charge of the club on a much smaller scale.

Paul: Crystal Palace have been run on that basis. But Steve Parrish, as the chairman of Crystal Palace, has been the primary driver behind Crystal Palace’s success, at least from my perspective. And he’s an interesting guy because you’ll often find him talking about the game of football more widely, rather than just from a Crystal Palace perspective.

Paul: So you’ll often find him popping up in conversations about the relationship between the Premier League and the English Football League, for example, about what payments from the Premier League should go from the Premier League to the EFL, parachute payments.

Paul: Stuff of this nature, which is obviously very important in terms of the pyramid, and is obviously very important in terms of independent regulation going forwards. Actually, he’s very, very against independent regulation, but that’s probably a subject for an entirely different podcast.

Paul: John Textor is effectively a passive investor. He’s not involved day to day. He’s a successful investor, as I said earlier. He’s had some ups and he’s had some downs. But as with all successful investors, the ups far exceeded down.

Paul: So in the context of what could John Textor bring to Everton, you can’t really look at what Crystal Palace have achieved and say that translates into what he could bring to Everton. Of course, the big problem, and this is a problem that’s been ignored across most of the media, is that John Textor has to sell his Crystal Palace shares before even thinking about buying Everton Football Club if he’s in a position to do so.

Paul: And because of the share structure at Palace, no single investor is actually in control of the club. Textor owns the largest number of shares, but he doesn’t own. He owns 25 percent of the voting power, even though he owns 45 percent of the shares at Palace.

Paul: So there’s no single person in charge and there is friction between Textor and the three main shareholders, a guy called Josh Harris, David Blitzer, who I’ve mentioned already, and Steve Parrish, who is the chairman.

Paul: So I can understand his frustration in wanting to move away from Palace and doing something else. The problem he’s got is that trying to sell 45 percent of a company, whereby you have no control. And the other shareholders are not going to give you any more control than that shareholding already offers and is extremely difficult.

Paul: And Textor has been trying to sell his Crystal Palace holding for a considerable period of time. So it seems extraordinary to me that if you’re finding it difficult to sell whatever shareholding you have, that you then go public on the reason why you need to sell the shareholding.

Paul: And the reason he’s now giving for selling the shareholding is that he wants to buy Everton Football Club. The two do not, the two do not compute. The moment he gives a reason why he wants to sell. And any seller in any arena, it doesn’t matter who you are, what you are, how big the deal is, the best sellers of anything are always reluctant sellers.

Paul: They always give the impression that they don’t really want to sell something and that’s what gets the maximum price for a sale. That works for our business from the very bottom to the very top of business.

Paul: It’s always the case. So why would he present himself as a willing seller of Crystal Palace’s shares in order to buy Everton? And nobody, just to finish off, nobody in the media has been able to answer that question.

George: Is that because this story is a media generated story?

Paul: Well, it it’s certainly been exploited by the media. But then people would argue against what I’ve just said by saying, well, actually, texter has come out himself and said exactly what is quoted. I think it was first quoted in the athletic stroke New York Times.

Paul: I’m not sure which publication it was, but both of those publications are under the same ownership. So it doesn’t really matter which one it was. You know, he did he did come out and say what he said about everything being, you know, a great English football club and a football club that should be able should be returned to its former glories, which is music to most evident Evertonians is including ourselves, obviously.

George: Thank you all.

Paul: But, you know, it doesn’t reflect the reality of, one, he has to sell his Crystal Palace shares, which he’s been unable to do for 12 months. And two, something which I think needs much further consideration.

Paul: I think it’s enormously disrespectful to his fellow Crystal Palace shareholders. I think it’s disrespectful to the Crystal Palace staff. And I think it’s really disrespectful to the Crystal Palace fans.

Paul: And I got a bit of criticism on social media today for saying that. But how can you possibly, as the largest single shareholder in a football club, turn on and say, you know, one of our opposing football clubs actually deserves to, you know, be doing much better and handle the person that can deliver that?

Paul: Surely the question is, well, if you think you can deliver at Everton with all of its problems, why can’t you deliver as a Crystal Palace with much fewer problems than Everton have? And I think there’s a huge disconnect between the reality of that and what the media are reporting and what, in fact, Texta himself said to the media.
Andy: because he didn’t he also say that he didn’t he didn’t expect to be able to conclude his sale of his palace shares in time to put together a deal to buy Evan. So he’s put himself in the marketplaces wanting to sell and wanting to buy and then and then almost rubbish to himself by saying well I don’t think I can sell in time to complete a purchase.

Andy: Yeah just seems a bit cack handy to me as well really.

Paul: I’ve talked to a number of my media contacts who know Textor quite well and I’m obviously not going to say names but they’ve all said that he has a tendency to say things for effect and he has a tendency to say things in order to get his name in the media that don’t necessarily reflect reality and I think this is a prime example of that.

Now, should we have a concern about Crystal Palace, should we have a concern about John Textor, there’s an argument to say no because they’re both competitors. My concern is what impact that has on Everton Football Club and in particular what impact that has on the Everton fan base because if you step back and if you don’t do any analysis or if you don’t have any information beyond what’s in the public domain then this seems like the perfect solution.

777, their exclusivity deal falls on Friday tomorrow and here we have a guy who can afford to buy Edison, possibly can afford to pay all of our debts and to provide more money going forwards, has had a successful time at Crystal Palace, what is there not to like?

Andy: Good question. The problem is…

Paul: And each of those questions are difficult to answer. The problem is that he’s not in a position to buy Everton, whether he’s got the money or not. And he’s not in a position to buy Everton because he can’t sell his Crystal Palace holdings.

And I just think it’s a false narrative that sends both the media and more importantly as far as we’re concerned, the fan base on a wild goose chase.

George: Who else is in the frame, Paul?

Paul: Well, that’s where it gets difficult because, I mean, I know both of you know, and I suspect many of the listeners also realise that at times I’m privy to information that’s not in the public domain and not in anybody’s interest to be in the public domain at this moment in time, there are a number of investors who would like to buy Everton, see value in Everton going forwards, the stadium, the relevance to the city of Liverpool, the low price that you buy Everton for, but there’s one big problem and the big problem with buying Everton at this moment in time is the amount of debt that Everton carries.

And I know the Football Club has done its best to deny this, but facts are facts. The Football Club currently owes more than a billion pound if you include Farhad Moshiri’s debt. If you take Farhad Moshiri out of the equation, so you accept that Moshiri is going to write off £450 million.
Then we still get to figure that it’s very close to £600 million. And with all the money that’s needed to put into Everton to meet losses, to reinvest in the squad, which is obviously something that’s desperately needed, and to finish off the payments for the stadium.

Adding a £600 million bill for the debt just doesn’t make sense to any of the potential owners and any of the people that I know and may or may not have had conversations with. And that, you know, very bluntly, that is the reality of the situation.

If the people who are owed money by Everton can’t come to the realisation that nobody’s going to buy Everton and pay them every penny that they’re owed, if they can’t come to that realisation, Everton is never going to be sold.

And that’s where the administration argument comes in, that if Everton aren’t sold, if Everton can’t continue to service their debts, continue to pay their bills, then the inevitable consequence is administration.

There has to be a recognition amongst the people who have lent money to Everton, all of whom have lent money to Everton in good faith, that the circumstances that Everton now faces and the circumstances upon which a new owner comes into Everton.
And none of those people, neither Everton are able to, nor are any of the people who might like to buy Everton, are prepared to pay for all of the mistakes that previous investors, Moshiri, and previous lenders, existing lenders, have made in lending money to Everton.

That is the crystal clear reality of the situation. You know, I come in for a lot of stick for, sometimes, increasingly, my blunt views about the football club. But I promise you, that is absolutely the reality.
And until some adults get into the room together and say, we recognise the situation, what can we do that makes the situation better? First of all, not for Everton Football Club, but for us, whoever us is, and then for Everton Football Club collectively.
Until those conversations start to take place, we’re going nowhere. So tomorrow, 31st of May, the 777 Agreement falls.

George: No, sorry, I’m talking crap.

Paul: So tomorrow 31st of May, the 777 agreement, share purchase agreement gets to the end of that agreement. Everton are open to offer, or Moshiri, sorry, to be more precise, Farhad Moshiri is open to other offers from other people with regards to his shareholding.

There’s some expectation that that changes everything. It changes nothing until such a time as either Farad Moshiri runs out of people who are prepared to fund Everton’s cash shortfalls, or the actual creditors, the people who are owed money by Everton, get together and say, the only way out of this is that we need to negotiate with the new owners.
And that means that the creditors end up receiving less than they lent to the football club. But ultimately that’s the nature of lending.

Andy: So, I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, but as of tomorrow, as you’ve just said, the agreement between Farhad Moshiri and 777 dissolves. So, in theory then, Farhad Moshiri should make his phone number available to potential buyers, wherever they are, whoever they might be.

But then, those potential buyers need to have discussions with the likes of Rights and Media funding, MSP, Metro Bank, Andy Bell and George Downing.

Paul: and 777

Andy: obviously 777 because however they put the money in they have put the money in so those potential new buyers then need to sit down with those guys the creditors and say listen we’ll take the club on and we’ll take the we’ll take on the debt but you guys are going to have to come to the party and agree either a time scale or a percentage on the pound that you’re going to get back i mean that’s probably very very bluntly but

Paul: Andy, you’ve said it more precisely and more accurately than I have, that is exactly the same.

George: Can I just ask one technical question Paul, much, how much more money do we owe Laing O’Rourke to build the stadium?

Paul: Well, I know the club will dispute this, but the figure is 95 million.

George: left to pay. Right, okay, thank you. But I agree with you, I think Andy’s summed that up perfectly. That’s what you mean by adults in the room, isn’t it?

Paul: You know, because ultimately you have to simplify everything and say, this is the position that we’re in, okay? Is there a solution given what’s in front of us? Yes or no? And at the moment, everybody’s saying no.
Some people might say yes, but everybody currently is saying no. So if everybody says no, or if a majority of people say no, then, you know, the art of negotiation is, okay, so what is the most acceptable solution to you if you can’t get everything that you want?

I mean, that’s human agent. That’s what we all do every day of the week.
Andy: this sounds like a job for Acas to get nothing they literally need to get four rooms in a hotel. The machine is in one, the creditors are in another, the potential buyers are in a third and Acas are in the fourth and one by one they call them in and say what’s your bottom line what will you accept what won’t you accept and then Acas thrash it out or an Acas type person some form the arbitration service yeah yeah that’s it out and say right this is this is this is the bottom line we’ve we’ve drawn the line across all the bottom lines and this is what so you’re into us for 200 million you’re gonna have to accept 180 you’re into us for 200 million you’re gonna have to set 180 you’re in us for 250 million you’re gonna have to take 220 and Mr Moshiri you’re in for us for 450 that isn’t guaranteed you might be lucky if you come out of this with a bacon and egg sandwich and somehow somehow somebody has got to make it as simple as that

Paul: spot on. Absolutely 100% spot on Andy.

Andy: Well, if I can figure it out, why the hell can’t the likes of MSP, rights and media funding, 777, Metro Bank and whoever the parties are that are secretly or privately expressing an interest in buying Everton Football Club.

Paul: Because they all believe that they’ve got an advantage over the other creditors. That’s a problem. So they all look at their security arrangements and they say, well, we’re not giving anything up because we, you know, our security is the stadium, our security is the bank accounts, our security is the future revenue from player sales, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

And they all believe naively or maybe it’s just a negotiating position from the very start that they are more secure than anybody else.

Andy: Go on. Sorry, just jump in. In all of this, in these three parties then, the interested parties who might want to buy the club, the creditors who have invested in the club and desperately want to recover as much as possible of what they put in, but far have matured it is the biggest potential loser in all of this because he’s into it for 450 million which he hasn’t secured against anything.

Surely, shouldn’t he be the one who’s asking all these parties to get together and say, listen guys, I want out. I’m going to lose the most between you. I’ve got to come up with a solution or a compromise that might give me a little bit back and ultimately I achieve what I want, which is to get out of the club and one of you gets the opportunity to take it on.
Hasn’t he still got, not the controlling interest, but haven’t he got the wherewithal to make this happen?

Paul: He has, and he’s using that against the creditors, because what he’s saying to the creditors is, if you want to maximise your position, your recovery position, what you have to do is to agree to a deal that gives me the maximum amount of money that I can extract from this deal.

So, I’m the shareholder, I’m the guy that owns the football club, currently I’m the guy that makes all the decisions, so if you want to make a decision that’s acceptable to you, it has to be acceptable to me, and this is the price for me doing it, whatever that price is.

777 came along and said, you know, we understand that argument, because that’s what we do for a living. Our price is, we’ll pay you 64 million pounds in cash, and you might earn approximately about the same amount at some point in the future, and Moshiri bought that.

777 couldn’t complete on the deal, because A, they couldn’t satisfy all of the legal requirements in terms of the Premier League, and B, as ultimately it turned out, they don’t have the cash to satisfy the deal anyway.

But that’s exactly the situation that we’re in, where Moshiri holds control, and he says to all the other creditors, you can agree whatever you want to agree, but ultimately you have to agree to pay me, whatever the figure is, and I’m only going to go with the deal that pays me the most.

So argue amongst yourselves, not my problem, as long as, as was the case, Triple Seven are paying the bills, because they’re the people who said they were going to buy the shares. I’m out of this, I’m out of this discussion, when you’ve agreed amongst yourselves, come back to me, if it’s acceptable to me, I get what I want, then the deal’s done, and the deal would have been done had that been the case.

The change from tomorrow, or from the end of tomorrow, is that Triple Seven no longer are in control of this position. The only reason it’s not happened is because 777 couldn’t complete on the deal.

After tomorrow, 777, not only can they not complete on the deal, but they no longer have the prime position in the deal. So the deal is now open to anybody else. If somebody else comes along and says to Farhad Moshiri, yeah, we hear exactly what you’re saying, this is an acceptable deal, he will deal with those people.
But it comes back to the point that, Sherry and whomever can agree whatever they want to agree, as did 777 back in September last year, none of that can happen without the approval and the explicit agreement of the creditors.

Andy: Ugh, dirty mate.

Paul: If somebody came along and said, you know, let’s say some Middle Eastern state owned entity, came along and said, Farhad, we’ll give you this and we’ll pay off all the creditors, then the deal would be done tomorrow.

But nobody’s going to do that, because everybody sees everything as a very distressed asset. And it doesn’t matter how wealthy you are, you’re not willingly, or at least without discussion, without negotiation.
Andy: You don’t get to be wealthy by pouring good money after that.

Paul: Exactly, paying hundreds of millions of pounds that you might not have to pay if either creditors agree to a massive discount on their debt or indeed, as I’ve talked about on many occasions, the club goes into administration.

George: Thank you. Thank you.

Paul: That’s where.

George: If the club goes into administration, Paul, and it’s all being held up, and I kind of understand from one point of view why Moshiri’s going, no, no, I’m going to hang on to save as much of my money that I poured into this wretched thing as I can.

If he goes into administration, what possibility has he of saving what percentage of his money?

Paul: as you know.

George: Right.

Paul: Administration is the worst possible option for Farhad Moshiri.

George: And how will it suit MSP and 777 and all the other players?

Andy: OK, so if we go…

Paul: through the major players. MSP have got security against the stadium and the stadium company so they would they will argue that no matter what happens the stadium and the stadium company that owns the stadium which is owned by Everton and it’s worth more than what’s owed to us so even if it takes six months or twelve months doesn’t really matter we’re gonna get paid out which is now our primary objective.

Paul: MSP, right to media funding, own a charge against all of Everton’s other assets, including the sale of existing players and future players. So they will argue, you know, if we had to decimate the whole squad, if we had to sell every single asset that Everton own, we’re going to get paid out.

So we’re OK. And in the meantime, we’re earning roughly 10% per annum on the amount that’s owed to us. So we’re pretty comfortable. Triple seven, get whatever is left after right to media funding and the MSP are paid out.

Andy: Now, just to clarify, MSP incorporates Andy Bell and George Downing as well.

Paul: Well, under the umbrella of what’s called Blythe Capital, yes, Blythe Capital is a company that’s owned by Andy Bell and his wife and they look after the interests of Andy Bell, George Downing and MSP.
So yeah, roughly, I mean that’s a fairly accurate statement to say. So that’s where we’re at. And any buyer of the football club looks at this and says, well, I understand that. This is what would happen in an administration.
I have a choice. I can buy the club before it goes into administration. But then that’s going to be quite expensive because the creditors can’t agree as to what losses that they’re going to take. Or I can let the club go into administration and then I can buy the club.

Not from afar, I’m sure you, but I can buy the club from the administrator that’s appointed by a cause whose job is to secure as much as he or she possibly can for the creditors. But ultimately we’ll do a deal.

And that, you know, I’m sorry, it’s not a great message to give. That’s exactly where we are. That is the reality of the situation. So when the football club brief media people, administration is not on the table.
It’s not on the table today. It was before the season finished. It’s not on the table today, but unless a solution is found, it will come back to the table. And the only way a solution can be found is if the people who are owed money by Everton Football club agree to take less than they are currently owed.

Andy: Next.

Paul: And, you know, I’m sorry if that’s like a really blunt message, but if you strip out the fact that it’s everything in full.

George: I don’t think you should apologize for that at all, Paul. Frankly, that’s what I’ve been waiting for.
Andy: It has to come out in words of one syllable sooner or later, didn’t it?
George: Well, none of us like it,

darling. I don’t think you should feel guilty about saying it. No, uh… It’s only, you know, and in the end, it’s your opinion. You could be wrong. It is, well…

Paul: It is only my opinion and you know I welcome the challenge if anybody wants to argue against that point or any of the points that I’ve just raised then you know get in touch you know I’m welcome to be very happy to discuss it that is how I see it and I think most dispassionate observers would ultimately agree with that analysis.

Paul:
So, you know, to get back to the question, Andy, tomorrow marks the point whereby 777 are no longer the preferred bidders or the only bidders, but, you know, it opens up a whole load of questions which have been parked while 777 are in the position that they’re in.

They can’t complete. Now, the question is, what happens next?

George: you

Paul: And, you know, frankly, the whole of the Everton fan base needs not answers from me or answers from this podcast, but they need answers from the football club.

Andy: Mm. The trouble is, is it?

George: and expect them to come.

Andy: Is there anybody within the football club who’s in a position to make any statements?

Paul: Well, I suspect there’s some sensible people in the Football Club who recognise the reality of the situation, whether they’re authorised to say what I just said, and, you know, obviously I’m outside of the Football Club, the Football Club have no authority over my opinion.

I don’t know. You know, I say this with the greatest respect. It’s not a criticism of any journalist or anybody else. You know, I listened to Giulia Bould’s piece yesterday on Radio Merseyside for an hour, and it just doesn’t reflect reality.

You know, people from close to the club, former players, commentators like myself, people like Kieran McGuire, who’s recognised as one of the football industry’s financial experts, and I’m not calling him out individually.

But I listened to what they had to say, and they were ultimately not addressing the real problem. And somebody, it’s not me, because I’m not in a position to do it, and I know where any of the people who were on Giulia Bould’s programme on Radio Merseyside last night, somebody within the Football Club has to take control of the situation.

Moshiri’s not going to. We know that. Or maybe one of the creditors has to take control of the situation and just come out and speak the plain, honest truth. Once we know the position that we’re in, we will get behind anybody who offers the best solution.

The problem we’ve got is that there is denial as to what is possible and what is not possible. And until such a point as that denial is removed, we can’t, I think, we can’t from an educational point of view, from an informed point of view, back any possible solution, because those solutions aren’t actually backed by any reality.

So a John Textor, or indeed anybody else, could be a sheikh who comes in tomorrow and says, we’re going to buy Everton Football Club. They still have to address all of the problems which we’ve just talked about.
Now, it may be if you’re a sheikh and if you have squillions of billions that you’re not that bothered about paying off all of Everton’s critics. That’s fine. But none of those people have come forward.

None of those people have come forward and said, yeah, we’ll pay for all your past mistakes. Don’t worry about it. We just want to buy Everton Football Club. There may be somebody out there that will do that, but I have no knowledge of those people and to my knowledge, nor does anybody else.

George: Yeah, I can see why the club wouldn’t say anything because if the club was to try and take hold of the agenda now and tell the truth, it would have to hold its hands up and name some horrible names and go, we got this wrong.

Now, obviously, Bashir is not going to allow that. The PRs, people who run Everton Football Club, give you no impression that that’s their idea of a good story. And so, you know, this podcast starts with me going, who is this Jim Trenton guy?

And eventually you go, well, it’s a bollocks because he can’t buy it because he can’t have shares in two football clubs. And he can’t. So, you know, but I understand why Everton aren’t taking hold of the initiative.
They never do. They never have. When they do, it’s always BS. And the first thing they would have to say in any attempt to clear the decks and let you understand what’s going on is we’ve effed up. I can’t see that happening.

It’s not in the DNA of the people who are there at the minute. Sorry.

Paul: No, no, I agree with that, George, but it comes to a point where actually there would be acceptance. If somebody stood up, I was in football.
George: Of course they’ll be accepted. All I’m saying is they’re not going to do it. Well. Thank you.

Paul: The only way out of the situation is somebody ultimately has to stand up and say, you know, forgive me, we got it wrong. Actually, what we now need to do is the following. And most people would say, fair enough.

Paul: What we’re interested in here is not retribution. We’re not what we’re not talking about.

George: No, just being an adult, that’s all, and treating the rest of us like adults.

Paul: That’s the most simple I ever asked.

George: Yeah, yeah, but you have no evidence at all to suggest that anybody ever in the football club is going to do any such thing. Barrett Baxendale, Bill Kenwright, Moshiri talking to a wall while the guy from the FAB talks to another wall.
The way that the club has historically over the past 28 years communicated with its fan base is a tall disgrace. Yep, and I absolutely told his grace and that’s not going to change. You’re right. It should be.

It’s not hard. You just have to act like a grown up, but nobody’s going to give anybody ever the responsibility to do it because the guy who’s got the responsibility, who should take it is Farhad Moshiri and as the days tick by, you know, I suspect most people listen to this podcast will think, when is he going to get done?

When is he going, you know, just get out of here. And I can understand for people who don’t, you know, have an interest in any of the minutians, they just want something that they can cling to because all they’ve got is cotton candy and debt and shame.
Andy: I think for many of the fan base, the bottom line and all, this is how many of the current squad are we going to have to sell to bail ourselves out of this position until the

George: Dread,

Andy. Every single one you dread we will have to sell, we will.

Andy: Yeah.

Paul: I can’t disagree with that.

George: I hope I’m wrong. Nobody’s happy to hold the hand up and go, well, I was talking crap, wasn’t I? Everything you’ve said and everything I understand anyway. That’s, you know, one tiny way out of a temporary problem.
I mean, a temporary way out of a problem. Problem will remain, of course, until, as you say, the adults hit the room.

Paul: I mean, having said all of that, having spent 45 minutes, you know,
George:
Doom and Glue. Oh, sorry, but you turned fair orange usual, thank you, John, for that.

Paul: You know, there is also a bright side, there is also an upside to this. If we can get over the current impasse that we face, there’s a chance of, and we touched upon this previously, there’s more than a chance of a change of government.

There is a recognition amongst local politicians, senior local politicians in the northwest, that evidence, not only survival, but evidence of success goes far beyond the football club fan dynamic. It is intrinsic to Liverpool’s economic success, to the success of the ability of people in Liverpool to find decent jobs, to find a decent income, to live the life that they want to live for themselves and for their families.

There is the political acknowledgement that to a degree, and possibly a large degree, Everton’s future success is a big component of that. And you know, this is where it goes from like, just like we are here, and the thousands of people that listen to us, three chaps, and the people that listen to us just chatting about football.

This is where it gets us into, you know, the real, the real stuff about people’s ability to live the lives they want to live, to live a decent life, have a decent income, have their kids go to decent schools, all of those sort of social stuff that societies based stuff that you’d normally expect in a country as wealthy as the UK, to be a given, but obviously isn’t in the more deprived parts of Liverpool, including the North of Liverpool.

This is the, this is the bit where we need support from the politicians, both local and national. But it’s also, you know, if we want to look forward, and we want to be positive about these things, a change of government might lead to greater public funding support for not only, not necessarily the football club, but for the development of the state of the new stadium, and all the surrounding areas, which will then benefit the football club, to a degree, but will also benefit society largely across the North of Liverpool.

And to me, I think, I think to all of us, Everton Football Club are massively significant parts of our lives, otherwise we wouldn’t be doing these podcasts. But there’s a bigger and greater story to all of this.
And it is that Liverpool as a city, if Everton were to fail, for all the reasons that we just talked about, if Everton were to fail, Liverpool as a city, and as a region, the Merseyside region, would be so much poorer without it, both economically, which is very important, but also culturally.
And this is what we’re, these are the chips that we’re currently playing with. And it needs people to recognise this and to talk about it. And to say, the importance of Everton’s future success, or future survival, not even success, is so great, because it affects all of these other issues, which normally you wouldn’t consider to be part of a football club discussion.

George: Instinctively, I understand exactly what you’re saying. If you’re now going to go on to say, so there should be help for Everton to dig their way out of the mess they’ve made, I’m afraid I’d pull my vote at that point.
Even though I’m an Everton supporter.

Paul: I’m not saying for a minute that, you know, public money has to bail out. It’s Everton’s problem. It can’t. It can’t. You know, everything is a private company. Exactly. Everton are a private company.

It’s made its mistakes. It lies in its own bed. But there are enabling factors surrounding the football club, surrounding the developments of Bramley Moore and the northern dock area that can and this actually leads us into a topic that we’re going to talk about, can help Everton Football Club if it’s perfectly acceptable for Manchester United under their new ownership, the INEOS ownership, owned by two billionaire investors, either side of the Atlantic, to call for public money to help their development, the redevelopment of their stadium.

George:Is that what they’ve done? Y

Paul: Yeah, backed by the Labour Party, backed by the future prime minister, if the polls are right, Keir Starmer, who appeared on a public platform together. Jim Ratcliffe, Sir Jim Ratcliffe, owner of INEOS, now minority owner of Manchester United, called for public investment into United Stadium, into Old Trafford.

George: It can’t be serious.

Paul: No, it did. They absolutely did,

George. And it got a lot of positive publicity and a lot of agreement as to the regeneration prospects for the area around Old Trafford, Salford, et cetera.

If they, as a private company backed by two multi -billionaire investors, Jim Ratcliffe and the Glazer family, can argue the case about public money supporting the developments of their football club, a football club that is, you know, way beyond where Everton are.
Why can’t Everton with much greater need, not as a football club, but much greater need and much greater relevance to the success and the improvement of lives around the north of Liverpool? Ask for exactly the same.

George: You better take this on because I’m in shock. I had no idea that was happening.

Andy: Well, I mean, it gets better, bro, because not only is not only is Jim Ratcliffe ventured this forward that the public money and go towards a redevelopment of Old Trafford. But yesterday, United announced that the vast majority of their staff and we’re going to be invited to take voluntary redundancy because Jim Ratcliffe thinks that Manchester United as a business needs to be run a bit leaner.
So he wants to reduce the headcount and he then followed it up by saying that he wants to put more money into the squad. Well, bearing in mind that just about every single player in that first team squad at Old Trafford earns more in one week than the vast majority of fans do in two or three years.

How on earth you can ask for voluntary redundancies from the staff of the club in order to fund multi -millionaire football is beyond me. The hypocrisy is off the charts. Absolutely off the charts. He wants the public to build them a new stadium.

He wants the staff to take voluntary redundancy so that he can throw another two or three million a year at ANOther who’s already earning 10 million a year plus. It’s just obscene. I mean, me and you don’t hold back on our dislike of Man United, but seriously, Jim Ratcliffe, his office trolley, if he thinks he’s going to get away with that, but he probably will because it’s Man United and they get away with murder anyway.

George: Well, as you say, they got a good press for it because the press is always in United’s pocket.

Andy: Yeah.

George: And I’m going to quibble with one thing, because I did read this one. What he said was, I want everybody working for United to be in the same place. If you want to stay working from home, you can have your bonus now and walk, because I want everybody in the same building.
I take advice from Paul on this, but I don’t think that sounds like terribly bad business practice, and I bet you anything you like. He’s right that United needs to be leaned out. But that is like a side issue to the notion that the Glazers who have milked that football club for I wouldn’t like to think have the nerve to expect the public to.

I just can’t take that on. That happens. I’m stopping watching professional football completely. I can’t, I can’t. I couldn’t possibly watch it and go, Oh, did you see Casemiro? No, I couldn’t. That’s the worst thing I’ve ever heard.
That’s terrible. And I understand why you’re saying if United can do it, everything can do it. And I also understand. No, because we finished this, Andy, because I’ve lived in Liverpool and I’ve lived in and we grew up in Manchester and I know the difference between the two cities and it’s chalk and cheese.

George: So Jesus Christ, you can’t. This is I’m sorry, I’m back to being speechless again.

Andy: No, I mean, it’s just bizarre. I mean, Paul’s right. I mean, to Jim Ratcliffe of Man United, successful, shall we say, let’s use the word successful albeit in inverted commas, in persuading the next government, be it Tory or Labour, that public money would be well channeled into the redevelopment of Old Trafford, then Paul’s absolutely right, then there should be public money, not necessarily for the completion of Bramley Moore Dock, but to complete the regeneration of North Liverpool.

George: This is, I’ve never heard bollocks like this in my life, this is absolutely, this is just madness, it’s madness. And are you telling me Starma was on the platform like a nodding doll or something?

Paul: Absolutely, it was. You could argue from the other side of the political fence that the regeneration of Liverpool in the late 90s post the um sorry the regeneration of Liverpool before uh new Labour was a result of Michael Heseltine, exactly um and you know public money did do a great deal of good.

Paul: Notwithstanding all the political rubbish about um.

George: Public money is one thing, parks, lights, police, health, housing, streets, tidiness, whatever, whatever you want to do, giving it to a private football club. It pays millions of pounds.

Paul: Yeah, well, I agree with you

George, the only argument I’m making is that what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
George: Well, that is the way it will go if that’s what’s going to happen, but I couldn’t possibly watch professional football if that’s the direction it’s going in.

Paul: That’s not an expression I ever thought I would use on TtB, but there you go. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. But nevertheless, it’s an argument that one of the wealthiest men in the UK has put forward.

George: I mean, this is, you know, if an eight -year -old said, came up to you and goes, what is, what does this expression, taking the mickey mean? You would go, here. This is what it means. I can’t, I can’t.

That would be it for me. I would definitely. I mean, it’s just bonkers. And Andy’s absolutely right to point to the amount of money that those players, particularly, but all Premier League players are being paid compared to asking the public to put their hand in their pocket to do something that Gary Neville went pews in saying the Glazers have done jack shit about the upkeep of Old Trafford Stadium.

It leaks, it’s a mess, it’s a waterfall, and the public’s supposed to pay for it. It’s a good contract, but he should be sent down the road. And Keir Starmer with him, that sense is grace, man. And he’s goodness
Is Andy Burnham part of that platform?

Paul: Well, Andy Burnham was there, and I’m pretty sure if, you know, if Steve Rotherham, who I’ve agreed to respect for, you know, regardless of any political opinions, he would have done exactly the same.

George: I’m living in a different century. I’m sure you’re right. And I’m almost certain, as certain as I am, that we’re going to have to sell everybody. It’ll happen. And nobody will be remotely bothered about the fact.

Paul: and

George: Ha!

Paul: E -E -E, you can argue one.
George: to pay, give United the payback. No, go on.

Paul: No, you can argue why should it happen at United, given the amount of resource that their owners can put into the football club if they choose to do so, and the amount of revenue that Manchester United generates, not only at all traffic.

George: Which goes where, Paul? Which goes to the players, goes to like a squad of 25. It’s totally absurd. I get that 100%. All I’m saying is that if it happens at United and it gets local and national political support, which it appears to do, what on earth is the Everton board doing in not asking for the same?

Andy: Well, broaden it out a bit further Paul, if this notion were to go ahead, that public money would go towards the redevelopment of Old Trafford, how many other football clubs are going to go capping down to the government?

Andy: Ninety -two.

George: so they should. Where’s the Southend supposed to get their money from? It’s too Bob to go in, they play the payers, you know, chip packets. Where the Lincoln City and you know the chairman get their money from?
Every single one of them should go. If that goose is Manchester United, we’re the gander. Cough up, give us the percentage.

Andy: Yeah.

George: We’ve developed all the grounds. They’re all falling apart, aren’t they?

Paul: Yep.

Andy: Well, probably more is not. It’s not finished yet. I was being facetious, but you know what?

George: if you like her side better as to whether they ever will get

Andy: No, no, we’ve already been down that road.

George: Oh, my God. I’m really shocked by that. I didn’t know that. I’ve been so focused on whether Trump’s going to jail. I haven’t read anything else in the papers.

Paul: So who would have thought that couple weeks after the end of the season we’ve got enough to talk about?

George: It’s Everton, of course we would.

Andy: Should we talk something football? Well, no, no, it was it was the comments that DCL is reported to me that that certainly he felt and by association you have to assume that other players within the Everton squad and possibly players at every other club in the Premier League and elsewhere for that matter and felt that the TV companies wanting to show all of Everton’s final games or nearly all of Everton’s final games was an agenda.

It was almost as though the TV companies wanted to revel in Everton getting relegated and I think what DCL was saying was that if you like they took umbrage about it individually and collectively and instead of it being the demise of Everton Football Club the TV companies wanting to watch Everton go down actually galvanised the players even further to spite them and it just it just made me wonder you know what you know DCL came out and said it you felt that there was an agenda or some kind of I don’t think you use the word plot I’ll use the word plot but he certainly alluded to the fact that you know he felt it was orchestrated that the TV companies in particular Sky wanted to you know almost wanted to see Everton go down so they could make make hay out of it and it didn’t happen because well we all know the team booked itself up and got the results it needed but it was just um it was it was good actually to see a player express what we felt as fans that there was a you know there was possibly an agenda against the club and come hell or high water they weren’t going to let it happen in much the same way as the fans didn’t want it to happen and weren’t prepared to let it happen it looks like it backfired on the TV companies and it galvanised the players into not redoubling their efforts redoubling their efforts and it paid off

George: Fair play and respect to him.

Paul: Yeah, the flip side of that, again, just like to provide some balance. And I don’t necessarily subscribe to this is and George trying to use too much balance, trying to reflect your expertise here is if as an actor, you’re prepared to accept the wages, you can’t argue too much about the script.

Andy: Oh, no, that’s nonsense. Yeah, I was going to say you picked the wrong one there, Paul.

Paul: No, if you’re a player in the Premier League.

George: A good job is to make a script as good as it can be. But it’s not just about football anymore, is it? No. No, it’s about, you know, the best quality you can do.

Paul: Yeah, I get all of that. What I’m saying is, and no matter how good or bad the script is, you do your best as an actor. What I’m saying is that this is all now part of the game. That you can’t take the broadcaster’s dollar and not expect the broadcaster to create jeopardy where jeopardy doesn’t exist.

George: Of course. They’re selling a product, yeah, absolutely.

Paul: You know normally the jeopardy would be on the pitch who’s gonna get relegated last game in the season This season happened, you know, it turned out that because of how poor the three bottom clubs were there was no jeopardy but they have to create something in order to Create value for the product that they’re producing I’m not saying that’s right.
I’m just giving an explanation as to why That might have happened And dcl is is absolutely totally 100 right and to his credit To be one of the few people to call it out

George: Yeah, 100%. Couldn’t agree more.
Andy: Good.

Paul: I feel as if we’ve put a lot of the world to right here.

Andy: I was going to say, having gotten all of that off our chest, yes.

Paul: The three of us feel much better but whether anybody listening to this podcast feels much better at this stage. I wonder. There we go. Shall we leave it there?

George: Yeah man, leave it there.

Andy: I think we’ve covered enough

Paul: All right, tune in for the next episode of Doom and Gloom. That’s it, it’s not Doom and Gloom, it’s just, it’s just reality. It’s just, we’re saying it as we see it.

George: I never know. Trump might be in jail by the next time we meet. Wouldn’t that be sweet? I’ve been thinking about praying. I’m pretty agnostic.

Paul: you’re down on bended knee?

George: Um, I’ve considered it Paul, but you know, it’s a bit pointless and a bit insulting because I don’t do it when it’s important. So I just, the world’s in a, if you want to have two minutes on this, the world’s in a very bad place, Putin, Xi, Netanyahu, Modi, if Trump wins the next election, I won’t know where to go and I will worry for my grandchildren, the world that, you know, they’re coming into.

So if he did get banged up and it finally put, you know, found guilty, because he won’t get banged up because they’ll appeal it to heaven and back. Um, but just, you know, if it punched a hole in him and he didn’t get elected, I believe the world would go woosh, thank God for that.
I do. And you know, the world needs to thank God for that because the world’s leaders are not addressing the thing that’s really bothering the world, which is it’s burning.

Andy: Yeah.

George: Thank you. Go on with that.

Paul: All right, not dismissing any of your views, George, which are perfectly valid and true. Let’s leave it there.

Andy: Yeah.

Paul: Thank you, guys. It’s been a wonderfully passionate debate, and I hope everybody has listened, even if they don’t necessarily agree with every point that we’ve made. Appreciate the debate and allows them.

And, you know, the responses to the podcast are always welcome. So if people don’t necessarily see it the way that we see it, or each of us as individuals see it, then other people’s input is always welcome.
So thank you very much, both of you, George and Andy. It’s good to get back together again, and a little bit of a gap. And no doubt these conversations are going to continue over the summer.
Andy: I think we’re up until the next 24 -48 hours!

Paul: Yeah we could be back on Saturday talking about it, saying actually what we said on Thursday was complete nonsense.
Andy: Go to the.

Paul: Don’t forget the delete button is always there in the corner so we can always delete it and deny it ever happened which is a bit of a Trumpism probably. All right guys thank you so much, take care.

George: Cheers Paul. Cheers guys. Thank you everybody for listening.