Welcome to this week’s transcript of the talking the Blues Podcast. With Andy and George Costigan. Enjoy!

Paul: Good morning, good afternoon or good evening depending upon where in the world you are and what time of the day you’re listening to this Talking the Blues, George and Andy how are you both ?

George: Tip chop, mate. 

Paul: Yeah, good. Good. Well, that makes three of us. That’s good news. We’re getting to that time of the summer when not only are all of our favorite sporting competitions taking place, but all of the teams that we support somehow end up getting knocked out. 

Everton, obviously not playing anything at the moment, so they’re fine. And England probably should have been knocked out by now. But let’s start there. George and Andy, I know you both are well, judging by the WhatsApp group that we have between the three of us. 

So I’ve been used, frustrated, annoyed and ended up being somewhat relieved by what happened to England the other night. 

George: It was, I don’t know about being annoyed, I think it was almost, it was just embarrassing watching. I don’t know about relief. It was, I mean, I mean, we, you know, in the messages, like you said, in the messages, I mean, I think, I can’t remember who said this is two, two poor teams. 

Andy: And I thought, no, this isn’t a team. This is, this is 10 guys in white shirts with a goalie behind them. It didn’t look like England didn’t look like a team. I just, I just, it was frustrating. It was almost embarrassing. 

George: I mean, who on earth installed England as pre tournament favorites? The English press. The English press. Right. Fair enough. I’ve been guaranteeing you the French press didn’t install England as favorites. 

Andy: No, and I’m sure not many other countries see them as favorites either, but not anymore. No, I mean, it was, I mean, last night was, it was shocking, really. It really was poor. You know, I mean, I mean, listening to the commentary on ITV, and they were saying that he’s holding his substitutes back. 

George: So they get a late, they get a late equalizer and he can use them in extra time. And I’m thinking, if that’s what’s just tender in the, what he’s planning, he’s off his trolley. And that’s we genius. I found myself thinking maybe he’s smarter than I give him credit for. 

George: But I can’t, I can’t say that he was, you know, he got lucky with them with the equalizer from Bellingham. And they got lucky with the go ahead goal. But I guess, you know, on those on that kind of look is, you know, fortunes can be made. 

Andy: And I used to say that they won’t go on and do something good. They’ve ridden their luck so far. And they’ve got through. And the thing about tournaments is, I’m realizing because I’m quite paying attention to this one, is that teams evolve as they go on. 

George: And the biggest plus from last night is Saka at left back. Because suddenly, after three whole games of, you know, auto tedium, and most of that was pretty tedious, too. They’re balanced, because Saka has got a left foot. 

Andy: Now, whether you dare to risk it, but I think he will. I think he’ll put Bowdoin out on the right hand side against Switzerland, who won’t be trembling in their boots at all. And so that was a positive, I think. 

George: And that was about it for me. What upset me, and it did upset me, and it’s partly maybe it’s because I don’t live in England anymore, is that having come on,  scores the second goal, hurrah. And what do England do then for 29 minutes? 

George: It’s kind of like anti sport to me. And then, of course, you know, those of you who bothered, watch the Spanish go one down, equalize, get in front, and then go right now you’re in for a paste in. And the fact that England have no sense of that mentality at all, which is, you know, let’s get as many as we can. 

George: Slovakia, you know, you could see Slovakia were done, they didn’t, you know, they didn’t get picked for any problems after the second goal had gone in. Where’s the mentality that goes, come on, oh, come on, crush him. 

George: And I wonder, you know, I wonder, because I don’t know whether it’s because he’s a centre-half, because you could level the same criticism as Everton. And he’s a centre-half as well. I don’t know, but I was depressed by that showing last night, because we’ve already seen him do it twice, get in front and go right, that’s it now. 

Andy: I mean, I watched that game last night and thinking, you know, we’ve seen kind of three years of that abject, dismal kind of football when we’ve been watching Everton, but we’ve been, you know, we’ve been in three consecutive relegation battles under three different managers to some degree. 

George: And then, you know, and we’ve been, you know, we’ve been critical of the make-up of the Everton squad, you know, about the lack of quality. Well, you can’t say that about the England squad, because he’s got mostly the best players that are eligible to play for the country and yeah that’s what you said Andy that you know they’re not they’re not a team no they’re not they’re just the best players and in the end what they do is they they muck about and make it up on the spur of the moment and wait for Bellingham to do what he did because he’s the only one that can. 

George: I’m just embarrassed really and I hope they find some form and play and I do think Saka will help because this whole idea of waiting for Luke Shaw to get internationally fit is total you know nonsense. 

George: That’s bonkers yeah we’re rambling here what did you think Paul? 

Paul: But probably something we’re going to talk about a little bit later, because I have an irrelevance to this is this, I really enjoyed, and people will say what, I really enjoyed listening to the Jim Ratcliffe interview, which we’re going to talk about in a little while when he was talking about Manchester United. 

Paul: And in that, you know, he talked about the fact that Manchester United haven’t been good enough for many, many years. And he said, you know, it’s not just the players, it’s down to the people behind the players and it’s down to the preparation, it’s down to, frankly, people just not being good enough. 

Paul: And I think that is the case with England, that on paper, we’ve got a squad pretty much to match almost anybody else in the competition, which is, I think, one of the reasons why, you know, at least in the British or the English press, we were considered to be one of the tournament favorites. 

Paul: Certainly, you know, if you look at our capability up front, it’s on a par with anybody else. But the way that we play, the way that we prepare, the mental preparedness, the attitude, the it just suggests that we’re not prepared well enough because we’re not prepared by people who are good enough and people who don’t believe in their own footballing philosophy and don’t believe enough in the players that they they pick. 

Paul: Because if you actually did believe in the players that they picked and, you know, if you look at our squad and if you believed in that squad, say, for example, the individual fans of the individual clubs of those players believe in those players, you never set them out, send them out to play football the way that they’re playing. 

Paul: And I think the difference, the difference with Dyche for example, is that Dyche did what he did out of necessity because he didn’t believe that players could do anything more than what they were doing. And if we’re looking at the England setup and the England manager, maybe he doesn’t believe that the players can do anything more than what they’re doing, because why on Earth would you? 

Paul: It’s like you’re saying both tying the shoelaces together. You wouldn’t do that, would you? It’s a ridiculous analogy. But why would you have if you if you actually believe that these players were good enough to play expansive, flowing football and to get the ball behind the defense and for midfielders to run on past the midfield of the opposition, which we haven’t seen in any England game so far, 

Paul: if you actually believe that they were good enough to do that, you tell them to do it. In fact, you wouldn’t even have to tell them to do it. You would allow them to do what they do naturally when they’re playing for their club sides. 

Paul: And not none of the players, certainly none of the players last night and I think the previous three games are playing that natural game. So they’re actually being coached to do something that they are in normal circumstances within their club teams. 

Paul: They wouldn’t dream of because they’re considered to be better players within the club environment than they are within the international environment. And actually, the very best international sites take the player from the club and make the player from the club play like a club player in an international site. 

Paul: We don’t do that. We have a manager that’s just got his own football and philosophy. And whichever club you play for, you play the guy at a Southgate way. And it minimizes the talent that we have 

George: available to us but it begs the question though that once you know what once they’ve crossed the white line and they’ve kicked off and they’ve been playing 10 -15 minutes and they’re making absolutely no headway against a side that they should be perfectly capable of beating um no disrespect to Slovakia but what what it begs the question what why doesn’t why doesn’t the captain or somebody say you know this isn’t working we’ve got a drop we’ve got to ignore him on the ignore him on the touch line just let him stand there then wave his arms around and shout and scream and ball let’s do what we got you’ve got Walker stones and Foden from City you know Kane’s had a great season in Germany with Bayern Munich all right they didn’t win anything but he scored a shed load of goals and he’s hardly looked like scoring and he still scored half of them I know but there’s a lot of talent in that side there’s an awful lot of talent in or in that squad and yet it’s being stifled by the by the clown on the touch line well it just makes me wonder why on earth don’t players you know say to themselves you know Jordan the training and and they they must know they must know when they’re training that this is this isn’t going to work so why don’t they just get together afterwards and say right just just nod and smile at him and when we get out there we’ll do what we know we we can do because they’ll get dropped Andy I presume well yeah maybe if we maybe if after 15 minutes yesterday Kane had said right guys let’s do what we said we’re going to do and then and suddenly they turn it around and they talk so back to your 4 -0 all of a sudden Southgate gets all the praise and he and he looks like a genius I’m up 

Paul: Are you suggesting they do an Amokachi and they run on the pitch themselves? 

Andy: Yeah, why not? It makes it interesting, for God’s sake. I mean, there can’t have been anybody who watched that game last night who seriously enjoyed watching it. It was drivel. And yet, afterwards, like you said, Our Kid, you watched Georgia and Spain. 

George: I mean, no one in their right mind was giving Georgia a cat in hells chance against Spain, but they had to go. The bit that’s got me baffled about England is, and I blame, well, no, let me just, why are they playing so slowly? 

George: It’s perfectly obvious, even to, you know, and I’ve never played the game at any level. I’ve never coached it and I’ve never, you know, I don’t really know what I’m talking about, but it’s absolutely obvious that all the really good teams in this tournament are playing quickly. 

They’re playing one, two touch football, but quickly. Now, starting with John Stones, who needs fireworks, repositories, I would suggest, we just don’t play quickly enough to worry anybody. At this level, if you stop and stand still and turn around, all that means is that the other team’s completely organized again. 

Andy: You’ve been closed down, you’ve been tackled, and you’ve probably got two or three men round you. So I don’t understand why they play so slowly. I can’t figure that out at all, but as long as they go on like that, it’s going to be hideously tedious to watch, which it is. 

George: You know. 

Paul: No, not everybody in the game seems to agree because I don’t know if you saw what Phil Neville said. 

Paul: He said Gareth Southgate, and he listed his achievements as England manager. World Cup semi -final, World Cup quarter -final, the Euros final, and now the Euros quarters. One of the best we’ve had. 

George: And that’s not saying much, for God’s sake. No, it’s not. Everton fans are experts on crap managers. Yes. Do you want Fabio Capello to have a go with us? I don’t know. And football teams go in cycles. 

George: He has got good players. Other managers have not had such good players. I don’t know. Just play faster. Play like you want it. Play like you want to win, for God’s sake. Don’t go one goal up against Slovakia and then take the forwards off. 

George: Put people on who are just going to close everything down. It’s ugly and horrible. I don’t care. I’m sick to death watching it. It’s shameful. I was ashamed, as an Englishman, just thinking, am I supposed to support this? 

George: And then the press are going on about how they do, you know. Oh, I can’t bear it. I can’t bear it. Sorry. 

Paul: Can I throw a complete spanner in the works? 

George: Don’t go on. 

Paul: just thinking about the dominance of English football clubs and the degree of control they have over their players and the importance, especially amongst the biggest clubs of their biggest players and keeping them fit for the really important games like the champions league, for example, would it be ludicrous to suggest that many of the players who are playing for England currently aren’t putting the same effort into an England game that they would put into a club game and perhaps that may be something that whilst they could never be instructed to do, 

Paul: something that their host clubs, their home clubs are quite happy for them to do. 

George: I was watching, I can’t remember which player it was, but they were talking, and this guy said, look, when players cross the white line in a match, all that bollocks goes out the window. They want to play well and they want to win. 

Andy: It’s just that the system that they’re working to, and players do work to systems, there’s no question about it. You know, Andy just said, there’s three city players, one Everton player, I don’t, you know, I don’t know the breakdown of it all. 

But the only person yesterday who played with any kind of freedom or expression, every time he got the ball, Maimu, he sort of thought, go on, go on, go on. Now maybe it’s because he’s only been in the team for one game in eight minutes. 

And so he’s going, oh, I haven’t listened to all that crap you were talking about. I’m just trying to push forward and do things quicker than everybody else who’s standing around going, I didn’t lose the ball, it wasn’t me. 

George: I don’t know. Maimu was prepared to take chances. And as you say, he was quicker, he was quicker with his feet, he was quicker with his head. Well, he was just very, very positive. And whilst the players, the players are not, they’re not positive. 

George: They look like, don’t make a mistake. Whereas, you know, an awful lot of other teams in this competition are playing, take a risk, to knock out competition, take a risk, not playing risky football. Now, you know, he’s, oh, it’s moaning, not I’m moaning. 

Andy: They’re in the quarterfinals of this tournament. So, but I don’t know. 

Paul: Yeah, but do they want to be sent home after a gallant 2 -1 loss to Switzerland? 

George: No, of course not. They want to go on and win the damn thing, but it’s hard to see them doing that the way they’re playing. I mean, well, we should, we’ll be here again in a week’s time. What will win the fresh Switzerland 5 -1 and everybody’s going, Oh, my God. 

Paul: I’ll have whatever you are having, George, thanks. 

George: I’ve got another talking point, I hope. This has exercised me quite a lot watching this tournament and, frankly, Premier League football. You know, I’ve banged on since we started doing Talk in the Blues about stop the talk, make the players play 90 minutes. 

George: They will adjust. It won’t take all night. It won’t ruin the schedules. It’s just fair, that’s all. And it does mean that time wasting is a new one. Anybody who pulls, anybody who pulls a shirt, that’s a red card. 

George: Instantly. No yellow card, no warning, no nothing. If you pull somebody’s shirt, you’re cheating off the pitch. It would be, I mean, just from a sort of humorous point of view, the first two or three weeks before the players got the message would be marvellous because you’d be eight a side within quarter an hour, which should probably be a good idea on those, you know, how fit they are on those. 

George: But the point remains that what it is, pulling somebody’s shirt is just flat, blatant cheating. And one of the things that bothers me about football is that there’s no movement to put a stop to all this stuff. 

George: Understand why not? Cheating is a good idea? His shirt-pulling, was their shirt-pulling was better than ours. I just do not get it. I just and I also think the media are responsible and they should be on it. 

George: And I’m going, no, but you know, yesterday, no, no, wasn’t yesterday, the Germany Denmark game that I watched a game brilliantly ruined by VAR, absolutely, classically ruined by VAR contained a conversation from Ian Wright and Roy Keane, where they go, well, the reason that goal got disallowed is because the guy who was blocking the runner didn’t do it well enough. 

George: And I thought, am I listening to a conversation between ex -professionals about gradations of cheating? And I was. That’s what you know, blocking is part of the game, says Mark Pouguet. Well, I have to accept that it is, of course it is. 

George: But when professional players are going, well, he shouldn’t have done it like that, he should have done it like this, and then he would have got away with it. You go, all right, it’s about what you can get away with, is it? 

Paul: What you say is part of the game and clearly as an observer to the game, or as an observer of the game, sorry, it looks that way. But if you read the rules and certainly when I played football, if you block somebody off you, it used to be called obstruction. 

Andy: Yeah. But that sort of… I mean, watch any corner, in any game. And if there are players, nobody’s watching the ball, they are designated to make sure he doesn’t make a run. 

Paul: The only time it’s called is when somebody stands in front of the goalkeeper. 

George: Well, to be fair to Michael Oliver, Germany scored a rather wonderful goal and then it was just… Yeah, he got Kimmick, didn’t he? Because Kimmick clearly had no role… Yeah, Michael Oliver saw it. 

Andy: He didn’t need the VAR. I mean, the VAR confirmed it, but Oliver saw him do it. Yeah. And that’s what Wright and Keene were talking about, that the guy who blocked him off didn’t do it well enough. And you go, oh, for God’s sake! 

George: Yeah, because he turned into the guy, didn’t he? It was so blatantly obvious he wasn’t even looking at the ball. No. Well, none of them look at the ball, Andy. No, I know. You’ve seen a corner and I’m watching the guy and if he runs at me, I’ll pull his shirt and if he doesn’t, I’ll block him off and, you know, in the end, you know, football is… 

George: You know, we’re in the middle of two elections here and, you know, Francis is in shock at what’s happened to it because it’s got a majority of far -right people now. So football is only a distraction from that. 

George: But in the end, although it’s professional sport, the whole point of football is the kids, girls and boys, were watching it and learning. And why isn’t the game trying to make itself better instead of more and more cheating? 

Andy: Oh, well, while we’re on about ridiculous things in football, then, I want to talk about stuttering run -ups for penalties, because that winds me right off the clock. And the one that got me in this tournament was in the Poland… 

George: I think it was the Poland -Austria game. And Poland got a penalty and Robert Lewandowski kind of… He took about four minutes to take five paces, because it was stop, start, stop, start. And then, obviously, he’s trying to lure the goalie into moving, which he did, because he’s shocked. 

Andy: The goalie saved it because he’d moved, and Lewandowski is immediately appealing that the goalie had moved. So, obviously, they looked at it and said, yeah, he did, he moved. So they made him take it again. 

George: Exactly the same idiotic run -up. And this time, he scored. But I’m thinking, how much advantage do these players want? They’re 12 yards out and gone. Really good point, Andy. That’s exactly what’s going on. 

Andy: How can I gain the tiniest advantage? But children are watching me, Andy. Yeah, but what I’m saying is, when is somebody in the higher echelons of football, at FIFA, UEFA, the football league, the Premier League, every Premier League around Europe, even the people who designed Subbuteo, for God’s sake, you can’t have a stuttering run -up in Subbuteo. 

Andy: You can do me with your finger. You can do me with your finger, but the player can’t move. Why don’t you just make the rules say, no more stuttering run -ups? You run up and you take your shot. If you can’t beat the goalie from 12 yards, when he’s got to cover eight yards across his goal line, you know, it just gets right up my nose, it really does. 

Andy: And it’s not like Robert Lewandowski has never taken a penalty in his life. He’s a seasoned professional. Surely he can take a shot without trying to lure the goalie into a false move in case he saves it. 

Paul: there is a way around this Andy. Well go ahead. And it’s just whilst you were talking apart from the fact I was laughing at the Subbuteo reference um just got those images of the old Subbuteo footlights in the 1970s World Cup edition. 

Paul: In the big batteries at the bottom, um sorry to any of our younger listeners. I like to keep them. Just do what they do in Rugby Union that you’ve got x number of seconds to take uh the free kick or the conversion so referee blows his whistle and I think in Ruby Union you’ve got like 15 seconds or something which is fine because nobody does the stuttering and stuff um referee blows the whistle you’ve got three three seconds to hit the ball if you don’t hit the ball it’s no goal. 

George: Yeah, that’s it. I’ll do it. Just clean the bloody game up. Yeah, you know, it’s full of absolutely tedious, annoying things. France have just scored. Well, there’s two minutes gone here now. Well, they celebrate. 

George: They’re all over each other. And of course, they are excited. They are in the quarterfinals if they score. But you know, if the clock stopped, that would be fine. Carry on. It doesn’t make any difference. 

George: No advantage can be gained. I just do not understand why. 

Paul: But again, if the rule makers really wanted to put a stop to all of this unnecessary stuff, the opposition scores a goal, the side that’s considered the goal doesn’t have to wait for everybody else to get back in position. 

Paul: All they need to do is get the ball to the centre spot and they can kick off whenever they want. 

George: Yeah. 

Paul: That would stop all the unnecessary celebrations and the time wasting and everything. Same with free kicks, goal kicks, throw -ins, whatever. You’ve got like three seconds. So the ball goes out of play, you’ve got three seconds and that’s it, you do it. 

Paul: You can take a free kick from anywhere in the pitch you like, as long as it’s not ahead of where the free kick occurred. You don’t have to wait for everybody to line up, you just take it. And the game would be revolutionised in a second. 

George: But you start, I couldn’t agree more, you started that by saying, I don’t understand why they don’t. Why don’t they? What, what, why, why are we watching the things that we don’t like watching? Because the people who run the game. 

George: Sorry, say that again. 

Paul: Sorry George, very rude, because the people who run the game don’t think the game’s broken. They look at the viewing figures, they look at the amounts of revenue that the game generates and they think because the viewing figures around the world go up every year, because the amount of money that the game generates goes up every year, that we’re doing great. 

Paul: We don’t need to worry about these things because there’s enough people who actually enjoy the product as it is. 

George: And I mean, that is such a ludicrous argument because who would ever say that and we wouldn’t enjoy it if there wasn’t cheating. Oh, you stopped shirt-pulling you’ve stopped and fouling. That’s no good. 

George: I don’t believe it for a second. 

Paul: I agree with you, but then that is the point, isn’t it? Why aren’t the people who’ve run the game, FIFA, UEFA, Premier League, as we’ve talked about before, why aren’t they talking about improving the game? 

George: I don’t know, Paul, and I think it’s the best question that we could possibly ask. And I don’t know why the media aren’t doing it. Instead of action replays and what does Danny Murphy think about the space that he’s just drawn with his computer pencil on all that nonsense, why aren’t those professionals going, look at that, that’s cheating. 

George: Cheating, he’s cheating. That’s the 33rd time he’s done that this season. I just don’t, you know… 

Paul: I, well, to answer your question directly, I think it’s because everybody that’s involved in the game are just promoters of the game. They’re not You can make it better, Paul No, I am with you 100% George, 100% I am with you. 

Paul: But the TV companies don’t care because they can sell the product and they sell the product, you know, they will be 

George: If they don’t make the rules, Paul. 

Paul: don’t. But they could, as you just said, they could comment on it and they could tell the pundits not to talk about or rather to talk about the cheating as against not talking about the cheating. But they don’t. 

Paul: They could take the view that we’re taking, that the game is not as good as it should be because of the cheating. Yeah, exactly. But they don’t because their role is to promote the game, not to objectively criticize the game. 

Paul: They’ll criticize individual performances, but they won’t criticize the sort of the ethos behind the game. They’ll criticize referees for not getting a, you know, a decision right or they’ll criticize VAR for making a complete horlicks or something. 

Paul: But they won’t criticize the way that the game is played or the way that the game is administered or the way that managers and owners of football clubs want to abuse the rules as far as they possibly can in order to gain a competitive advantage. 

Paul: And it comes back to something that we talked about before. It comes back to, and I’m sorry to say this, it comes back to Dave Brailsford’s philosophy, which is spread across all professional sports about marginal gains. 

Paul: You make marginal gains wherever you can on the pitch. And as a result, the collective effect of all of those marginal gains, if you make 15 marginal gains in a game, statistically the likelihood is that you will end up winning it. 

Paul: And it doesn’t matter what those marginal gains are. If it’s two yards on a throw-in, if it’s moving the ball fractionally outside of the quadrant to take a corner, if it’s pulling somebody in the penalty box, if it’s falling over the slightest touch, if it’s getting in the referee’s ear, it doesn’t matter what it is. 

Paul: It’s all about those little marginal gains that end up being sufficient in his belief and in, therefore, modern sports belief end up increasing the probability of that winning. 

George: And who is this Dave Brailsford chap? 

Paul: He’s now the sporting director of Ineos and therefore the sporting director of Manchester United. effectively 

George: What was the word you described him as? Sporting director. Sports. That’s the sports. The non-sporting sports director. Well, I mean, you know, sadly, he’s probably right. But that’s counter -mandable as well. 

George: And… Oh! Sorry. I’m dying to see what that looks like on the transcript. LAUGHTER I need a Magnum. Oh, God. 

Paul: Yeah, but that is the modern game and whilst people are not criticising any individuals here but whilst collectively we all carry on watching the game, we carry on supporting the sponsors of the game, we all buy our season tickets, this, that and the other and before anybody says I know I don’t because I don’t go to all of the games, football sells out every game at the highest level then frankly the people who run the game aren’t going to be bothered. 

Paul: They only improve the product when the people stop buying the product. 

George: Really? 

Paul: Like Toyota used to be Datsun, didn’t they Andy? Or was it Honda? 

Andy: No, no, that’s Nissan. 

Paul: Nissan, sorry, Nissan, they used to be rust buckets and they couldn’t sell any cars in the west because they were known as rust buckets. The only way they got to sell the cars was to improve the product and they did. 

Paul: And it should be the same with football. We as consumers of football should say if we disliked the game as much as it sounds like the three of us currently dislike the modern game. 

George:There are aspects of the game that I can’t stand in. You know, I’ve just watched while we were talking, second half of France, Belgium, and some of the football was fantastic. Some of the high -speed scale and the, you know, a couple of blinding saves and, you know, a couple of bad roly-poly fouls. 

George: You know, I don’t wish to do anything except make the game more honest. I think it’s become a dishonest, it’s got aspects of dishonesty within it. 

Paul: But that’s because sporting integrity is important to you. 

George: Oh, yeah. Yeah, surely it should be to everybody. 

Paul: I’m not sure, I’m not sure it is anymore. 

George: Well, no, but you should. You could hope that there’s integrity in all walks of life, but clear that there isn’t. This is a deep discussion. Yeah, you’re right, because, you know, I’ve been a parent. So. 

Paul: You still are a parent, George. 

George: I am sorry but I don’t coach my children to play football anymore, but when you did, you didn’t coach him to cheat. But I have been an alignment in the league that our 11 -year -old played in and got threatened by parents because they’d given their children offside. 

George: So, you know, my attitude is not a common one seemingly anyway. Jim Ratcliffe, go on. 

Paul: Well, that’s funny enough. I think what Jim Ratcliffe has been talking about sort of fits neatly into this argument. He’s a hugely competitive man. He has made his fortune by becoming the dominant force in the fields in which his companies operate. 

Paul: And how has he done that? Well, there’s only basically two ways that you can do it. You either have a product that is far superior to everybody else’s. And in the petro-chemical industry, that’s very difficult to achieve because you’re dealing with a raw material, crude oil, or gas, and you’re turning it into some form of consumable product. 

Paul: And it’s the same for everybody around the world. There’s slight differences in inequalities as well. But essentially, it’s all the same business no matter where you are. So the only way that you can become the dominant player in that particular market is by crushing your opposition. 

Paul: And that’s what he’s done. Legitimately, that’s what he’s done for years and years and years. And he’s ended up as a major player. And therefore, I think the UK is the second wealthiest individual as a result. 

Paul: And he’s come to Manchester United. And he’s reckoned that Manchester United used to have a dominant role in football, in English football, maybe European football as well for a time. They don’t because of the same reasons that Everton don’t have a dominant role. 

Paul: They’ve been badly run, although Everton have been badly run for many years more and started probably as a lower base. And he’s now saying, well, what’s the best way of getting back to that dominant position? 

Paul: Is it by improving the product? Well, that’s going to take time. Or is it by gaming the system? And he is looking to game the system. And so, you know, the conversation that he had with Bloomberg, and I know that I know the two journalists that set it up. 

Paul: And I know the conversation that they had beforehand. And, you know, what are you saying is, because of our size, and because of our desire to compete in European football, which is good for English football, it’s not really just good for him. 

Paul: And we want certain advantages that other clubs don’t have. 

George: Yeah. If you know the two journalists who set up that conversation, part of the setting up of that conversation was that there were to be no questions about the Glazers. 

Paul: The Glazers are now irrelevant, to a large degree, at Manchester United. I mean, they, they, well, they have, they still have their financial interest in Manchester United. But the day-to-day running of Manchester United is now in the hands of Ineos, which is Jim Ratcliffe’s company. 

George: Wait a minute, he’s got a quarter stake in Manchester United. 

Paul: Yeah, you’ve got 28 percent. 

George: Of course they’re happy for him to run the globe, they’re not interested in the globe. But am I not right in thinking that they are continuing to take money out of Manchester United? 

Paul: Yeah, they’re currently taking whatever, I can’t recall, top of my head, whatever the dividend is, 20 million dollars a year or something, it may be more than that. 

George: That’s why they took an interest in Manchester United in the first place, because it’s a cash cow. 

Paul: and they didn’t have to put their own cash in, they could use the assets of the company of Manchester United to borrow against in order to pay for it. 

George: Right. I don’t give a rat’s ass about Man United should I? This is an established… 

Paul: I think it’s quite established. 

George: I enjoyed Mr. Ratcliffe, who was intelligent, if biased, and you’re right, he is trying to gain, say, the level playing field, ho, ho, ho. But there were no questions about the Glazers. My suggestion to him, he’s right. 

George: It’s a decade since United were any kind of power. Now he’s kind of suggesting that’s because Ferguson left, but it’s not. It’s because the soul of the club, the soul of the club has been ripped out by people who don’t know where it is, don’t give a damn about it. 

George: And he cannot correct that. 

Paul: Yeah, or he hasn’t got, he doesn’t feel as if he’s got the time to correct that, nor does he have the… He can’t. He has to get… 

George: get rid of them. 

Paul: Yeah, yeah. 

George: There that organization is called Manchester United dot com. It’s not called Manchester United Football Club, because that’s what it is. It’s a dot com. And when that latest manager came, whatever he’s called, Eric Van the Viking, and he’s played in yet. 

George: He’s he goes to Louis Van Hal and he goes, what’s your advice? And Van Hal says, by all means, go to the premiership. But go to a football club. Do not go to a business. And he didn’t take the advice and he went to United. 

George: And two years later, you’ve got the chaos of people being paid. Incredible, incredible amounts of money not performing. Why? Because it doesn’t matter, because the club’s got no soul. That’s what and it was fascinating to me because I did watch that interview with Ratcliffe that he did not. 

George: United. They’ve had, you know, a couple of really good people who’ve won everything that they can, you know, I was in Mourinho, won everything that could be won. 

Paul: George?. 

Andy: 

His phone’s melted. Yeah. 

Paul: Well, why should we wait for you? 

George: I was pushing the phone so close to my ear. All right, I’ll stop talking. That would be 

Paul: I think I think what you’re saying is absolutely absolutely true and in fact he did say at one point you you know if you if you had eight nine ten eleven twelve coaches and not had success you have to realize it’s not the fault of the coach of the coaches it is the fault of the football club and you know we could we can certainly say the same as Evertonians albeit you know having slightly different definition of success probably I couldn’t couldn’t agree with him more but then you know it could it comes back to if you would as I said in the article that I wrote if you if you attract money from those types of people that’s what you’re gonna end up getting you know the leopard is United’s problem to a degree what does it what does it mean to Everton well I think actually and you know 

I wrote this and I firmly believe it in terms of our new owners it gives us an amazing opportunity to say on behalf of both of the Premier League and all the football clubs as well as ourselves we’re not putting up for this nonsense what we need is we need the same form of leadership that no doubt Ratcliffe is now going to use on behalf of the the big six because he’s clearly a dominant force he clearly not bothered about what people think about him and he’s just gonna press for for whatever he believes to be in his own best interests we need somebody of an equal character and with equal fortitude to stand up for the Premier League as a whole to stand up for football as a whole and say you’re not having it and we need that same leadership on the other side of the argument who’s gonna do that well currently there is nobody in the Premier League I think who’s prepared to do that and I think somebody like Dan Freakin or one of his representatives have a great opportunity to come in here and say look at the end of the day it is the Premier League that provides us with all of our riches.

It is the Premier League that is the gateway to European football global merchandising marketing sponsorship deals etc etc etc the things that we all strive for as investors forget for a second just running a football club as investors because these people are all investors at the end of the day and and we have to look after what’s best for the Premier League not what’s best for individual clubs and that that to me is an amazing opportunity for somebody to come in and say that and to speak on behalf of football more generally because a stronger Premier League means that the clubs that qualify for European competitions should be stronger competitors against other clubs because that’s why we’ve had so much success in New York for so many years but it also means if you look down the pyramid that a stronger Premier League generating more revenue should be in a better position to assist the English football league in making that more competitive which ultimately provides a greenhouse or a development opportunity for players to come into the Premier League for them to be for them then to be sold and for more profits which then generates more profits for the more successful clubs it is a it is a completely virtuous circle and for somebody like Manchester United or Liverpool Chelsea Arsenal Tottenham Manchester City to try and break out of this virtuous circle and just look after their own interests at the expense of everybody else is so short -sighted as to be quite frankly quite incredible you can as a single company you can do it you can do it as a single company in as to say petrochemicals or in chemical you know the chemical industry because you don’t have an interest in anybody else you’re just people will still buy your product you just have an interest in yourself football is not like that the strength of football is in the collective it’s not in the individual club football is only as strong as the collective as the as the as the the Premier League as the English football league as as in European football itself a club level it it can’t be the case that a dominant club and a club that dominates by virtue of gaming the system not by its footballing excellence is good for the game because it’s not and somebody and at ownership level in other Premier League clubs has to say that and I genuinely think that there is no better football club than Everton Football Club to present that argument. 

Paul: We were one of the founders of the Premier League, we were the instigators of the Premier League and going back far enough we were founders and instigators of the Football League. Why shouldn’t we still have a role, a custodian role, in terms of not only looking after our own interests but looking after the interests of the game more generally. 

George: Couldn’t agree more. 

Paul: Yeah, good point. And now I think that and I think that’s a really difficult argument for a Manchester United or a Manchester City or any any of the other clubs that want to game assist them to argue against. 

Paul: Because you then can demonstrate that they’re acting in their own narrow self interests as against the interests of the game. And then you can look at the promoters of the game, the media, the press, TV, all other forms of media and say if your actual interest is in promoting the game as against promoting individual clubs, then you will follow our line and not follow that. 

George: Well, you’ve said it, it’s out there. I hope, you know, we’ve got quite a large number of people listen to us and read what we’ve said. One hopes that that word gets further out than just those myopic blues, because you’re right. 

George: And the whole thing can only be richer if the playing field got a bit leveller, you know, as opposed to, you know, the league will start up in a minute and All right. Did you win it? 

Paul: Sorry George, we’ve lost you again then. 

Andy: You’re breaking up again, bro Oh 

Paul: Oh, all your finest points lost there, George. 

George: Okay, I’ll come to the really big issue. Tell me about Branthwaite and Man United. 

Paul: We got through the immediate hurdle, which was getting past the end of the financial year, 30th of June. Clearly, because we’re now speaking on the 1st of July, we got through that. And that therefore suggests that the club believes that it’s in a position where it didn’t break the profitability and sustainability rules last year. 

Paul: Although how can they say that with any confidence without knowing what the outcome of the commission hearing is on the treatments of stadium interest payments. I’m not sure exactly how you can say that. 

Paul: Nevertheless, that’s what the club has done and that’s clearly what the club believes. So they must believe the fact that Brantwaite wasn’t sold before the 1st of July or 30th of June suggests that they believe that we’re OK in that sense. 

Paul: The fact that we’ve got new owners coming in means that probably we’ve got the latitude in terms of we don’t need to raise cash immediately. So there are two good reasons why he wasn’t sold before 30th of June. 

George: Can I ask you a question? Because it’s something about the whole football thing that I do not understand even now, after all these years. Because Brownthwaite signed a five -year contract, didn’t he? 

George: Yeah. Do Everton actually have the right to go, no son, you’re not going anywhere? 

Paul: They do. Yeah, they do. They, any football club can turn around to any player or indeed any other football club who’s interested in that play and saying, sorry, we own the registration rights to that player. 

Paul: Those registration rights say that this player can only play for the team that they’re registered to. In this case, everything could be any other team. And we’re not prepared to sell that registration to somebody else. 

Paul: So, sorry, you may want to go and play for somebody else, but you’re our player and you’re our player for the next three years, four years, five years or how long it might be. And you either knuckle down, do what you’re supposed to do as a professional player and you’ll play for us or you can sit in the reserves for the next three years. 

George: So when United offer, well, you know, I mean, I know it’s all paper talk and everything, but when they make an offer for him that they’re making an offer to the club to go, Are you prepared to sell 

Paul: Well, technically, going by the rules, the club that makes the approach can’t make the approach to the player without the approval of the club that owns the player. But that’s not to say that they can’t make an approach to the club’s, to the player’s representatives so that they will have spoken to Branthwaite’s representatives. 

Paul: But ultimately, it is down to the fact that the two clubs have to agree to a proposal before the player either says yes or no. 

George: OK, thank you. 

Paul: Hmm, so 

George: So hope springs eternal, he might stay for another year at least. 

Paul: before, everything take the view that later on in the window, as it gets towards the end of the transfer window, and after you know, the next season has started, that a better offer comes in, because the fear was that if everything had to sell somebody before the end, the end of June, they, you know, it would have been there a Richarlison situation all over again, where we end up selling at a discount because we had to sell. 

Paul: Now we don’t have to sell, and in a sense the balance swings towards the seller as against the buyer, because you know, we now don’t need to do anything, and if a buyer wants to come in, well then the buyer is going to have to meet our valuation, otherwise he remains our player. 

George: Okay, thanks. Meanwhile, it seems that DCL is on his way to Newcastle. 

Paul: I should be honest, I don’t know about that, George. 

George: Right. There’s been lots of talk in the last couple of days that Newcastle are going to have to sell because they’re a bit close to the PSR rider as well. Well, there was, I mean, I read one about Gordon coming back to Merseyside to go to play for Liverpool. 

Paul: Yeah, there’s no doubt about it that Newcastle have got difficulties because of the, you know, they obviously don’t have difficulties in terms of the amount of cash that they’ve got because, you know, they can draw down whatever they want from their owners, but they have the difficulties that everybody has in terms of the current PSL thing that they can’t buy without selling. 

George: So how many clubs have no PSR worries? 

Paul: I would think maybe half the clubs in the division. 

George: Right. I’ve got no problems with PSR. Well, yeah. All right. 

Paul: Actually, it’s been an interesting exercise. I’ll try and do it before our next Talking the Blues podcast. Quite a few clubs do have that difficulty. Even though the PSR rules are going to change, they still have that difficulty, as we speak. 

Paul: Right. Yeah, and it comes back now. I mean, you know, it’s a huge argument. It’s a huge discussion, isn’t it? As to whether or not you need, you do have these regulations in place or not. The regulations have some benefits, but they have some negatives. 

Paul: My biggest problem is if you don’t have those regulations or you don’t have any regulations at all, it just becomes a free market for Manchester City, Chelsea, etc. 

George: Well, then again, then it just gets ridiculous, don’t you? Yeah. 

George: Yeah of course. You’ve talked a fair bit about the regulator of the Premier League. Is that less or more likely to happen with what we assume will be a Labour government come riding? 

Paul: Well, they’ve made a commitment to support the legislation that allows the regulator to be put in place. So, yes, it’s going to happen. What they’ve not done is they’ve not totally said what those regulations will be. 

Paul: I think there’s still a discussion to be had between the DCMS, the Digital Culture, Media and Sport Department and the government, and the Premier League as to what exactly those regulations end up being. 

George: Right. And they could change given that the political sort of bias of the person in charge of that department will change as well. 

Paul: Yeah, I mean, you would, you would hope that a Labor government would be in favor of stronger regulation than a conservative government would be. 

George: I’m just very, very hopeful that somebody will give somebody some teeth to sort out what is potentially a big mess, isn’t it? 

Paul: it is. And there’s nothing, there’s nothing that the Premier League has done in the last 18 months or so. And you know, we as Evertonians know this more than anybody, that suggests that they’re able to regulate themselves. 

Paul: So I think any incoming government has to start on that premise, and say, we’re going to regulate not harshly, but we’re going to regulate as completely as we possibly can. And it’s up to you to prove through your good behaviour going forwards, that perhaps we can, you know, give you back areas of responsibility that you currently or under new legislation you wouldn’t have. 

George: Fingers crossed for that one as well then. 

Paul: The problem is, you’re going to get the argument that, again, Jim Ratcliffe put forward that says too much regulation will put the Premier League at a competitive disadvantage to Germany, to France, Germany, to Italy, to Spain, for example. 

Paul: Which again, you’ll be able to say in the media, and probably most of the media won’t challenge. But if you look at, for example, the regulations that exist within the Spanish leagues, they have the most stringent financial regulations of all. 

Paul: It doesn’t seem to affect the competitive abilities of the Spanish clubs in European football. It is, again, another example of somebody like Sir Jim Ratcliffe, who, aside from his political views, I’ve got quite a bit of time for in terms of his ability as a businessperson, of wanting to gain the system as against wanting to improve his football club. 

George: I’m sure he’d tell you he wants to do both. 

Paul: Yeah, I’m sure he wants to improve his football club, he just sees that gaming the system is easier than improving the football club. 

George: Well, it goes alongside it. 

Paul: Yeah. 

George: be, you know, in the same way that the Tories are running around going, you heard this one. James Cleverly said, what the Labour Party wants to do is to remain in government forever. Well, that’s Jim Ratcliffe. 

George: I just want United to be top of the tree forever. 

Paul: Oh, so says the government has been. 

George: You can’t make it up, really, no. Well, you wouldn’t, if you did make it up, some script editor would go, you’re kidding, aren’t you? 

Paul: Maybe this is an alternative Talking the Blues podcast. 

George: to do that. 

Paul: Alright, well there you go. Not sure there’s much else we can talk about really. Got a good old moan about England. Good old moan about the regulation of football. 

George: Good old note about cheating and diving and stuttering, you know. 

Paul: But, on the positive, I think we recognise the opportunity for Everton’s incoming owners to not only sort out Everton, which one hopes that they will do, and take on board some of the lessons that, for example, United have had in recent years, but also to recognise that there is a power vacuum within English football amongst the clubs that are not the big six clubs. 

Paul: And, you know, like it or not, we are currently not one of the big six clubs, and that’s not because of our legacy, not because of our history, not because of our relevance to English football, it’s because of the way that we’ve been running the last 30 years. 

Paul: And that’s just a fact. We are not one of the big six clubs. But there is an opportunity, there is a vacuum amongst all of the other clubs, to take a leadership role and to say, you guys are not having it all your own way. 

Paul: If you guys want to behave responsibly and act in the interest of football generally, and the Premier League specifically, we will support what you do. If you want to act in your own narrow self -interest, then we are going to stop you from doing so. 

Paul: And I think the impact of one football club just saying that and saying it publicly and saying it loudly and saying it with absolute clarity that we have the ability to stop you from doing what you want to do if it’s not in the interest of the game generally. 

George: How would they have the ability to call because because 

Paul: it of the rules of the Premier League because ultimately you need 14 clubs to agree to a change in the Premier League regulations. Right. And if people say and people would threaten normal will walk away from the Premier League, walk away from the Premier League because the Premier League is the gateway to everything else that makes those larger clubs larger clubs is the gateway to European competition. 

Paul: It is the gateway to global marketing, global sponsorship and it will be the gateway to the FIFA World Club championship when that happens. So if you want to act in the interest of the Premier League, that’s great, we’ll support you. 

Paul: If you just want to act in your own interests, forget it because we’re not going to allow you to do so. And just so that you know, you can stop wasting your own time. We can all focus on making the Premier League the best possible league that it can be the most equitable and the fairest league and thereby you only succeed by virtue of what happens on the pitch, not what happens in the bordering. 

Paul: And if somebody was to come out and say that, not only would they get the support of their own fan base, but they get the support of all of the 13 other football clubs who aren’t part of the big six. 

Paul: Of course they would create a leadership position. Well, I think without doubt, it would create a leadership position for those people that did that. And I think that’s, you know, Dan Friedman and Co will have a huge list of things to do in terms of sourcing Everton out, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t help source English football out in the same way that Jim Ratcliffe has a huge list of things to sort out at Manchester United, 

Paul: but he’s also trying to sort out the Premier League to his advantage. We should be doing exactly the same, but not just to our advantage, but to the advantage of the Premier League as a whole. 

George: He needs to get himself some mastic for that roof on the main stand. 

Paul: I think they had the same roof manufacturers as what they had in Dortmund, did you see it or anything? George, I thought you might have mentioned, have you 

George: No, I haven’t. 

Paul: Fog, yeah. 

George: F**k, wasn’t it an away game? Everton at Bolton? Yeah, we were there Andy. We were there Andy. The snow was set, they couldn’t pass the ball on the ground. It was… He re-claimed for Bolton. Yeah. 

George: Was it Boxing Day or New Year’s Day? It was around Christmas, wasn’t it? I think it was the only way along, Andy. Yeah, we were freezing our Ollies off. Were we ever? Main stand at Bernd and Park, and it comes. 

Andy: It was chaos, wasn’t it? It was mad, yeah. 23 minutes, they managed something. Something like that. It didn’t get to half time, did it? Did we get our money back? Here’s Bolton Wanderers. George. 

Paul: George, Andy got both of them on his back, but he didn’t mention it to you. All right, guys, let’s leave it there. And I really enjoyed that chat. 

Andy: Thank you very much. No worries. Yeah, I hope everybody else did. 

Paul: Thanks for listening. Thanks for reading. And I’m amazed by the number of messages I get about people actually listening to what we have to say and then going back and referring back to the transcripts just to like to top up, which is fantastic. 

Paul: So that’s great. 

George: which one of us was talking the most bollocks. 

Paul: Well, I mean, just before we finish, you know, the transcripts are generated by AI by artificial intelligence. And out of the three of us, which out of the three of us do I need to make the most corrections? 

George: I’ve seen nothing. 

Paul: You’ll have to tune in next week and I’ll tell you. 

George: Haha. 

Paul: Thank you so much. Thank you very much for listening and Enjoy the Euros and we will, we will speak to you.

Andy:  Well, we’ll speak to you next week