Welcome to the transcript of the Talking the Blues Podcast published Sunday 1st September 2024

Paul: Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, depending upon where in the world you are and what time of the day you’re listening to this episode of Talking the Blues. Andy and George, it seems almost unnecessary to ask how you both are, but how are you both? 

George: Better than Everton. 

Andy: Yeah, good. Well, I’m still trying to come to terms with what we witnessed yesterday. 

Paul: There’s probably not that many Evertonians who witnessed yesterday, who have yet to come to terms with it, or indeed never come to terms with it, I think. 

Andy: I think if you had to give it a subtitle, Everton versus Bournemouth, the good, the bad, and the ugly, because there was so much good there yesterday, so much good. And then it went bad. And then it just turned bloody ugly. 

I mean, we’re all at a loss, aren’t we, as to what the hell happened yesterday. He’s not learning. You know, he’s a very experienced manager, and he’s not learning how to make and use substitutions sensibly. 

I mean, you look at the Bournemouth manager, who’s a lot younger, and got a lot less experienced than Dyche. And his team were being fairly soundly beaten yesterday, particularly in the second half. 

Once we got the goal and took the lead and then got the second, you know, there was no way back. But he made positive substitutions, and he used five. We used two, and we used them wrongly, in my opinion. 

And for me, he was wrong to take Ndyia off. He took him off so he could get his stand innovation, because he put in a proper shift, and he deserved a stand innovation. But if it’s not broken, don’t fix it, is a golden rule. 

And he wasn’t broke. There were other players on the pitch who were visibly tiring and understandably tiring, namely the captain, who’s been out for a few weeks and only just came back. Seamus was obviously going to tire, and he was tiring. 

But no, he took Nydia off to give him his standing ovation and then he compounded it by taking DCL off so he could get his ovation for his goal. And you think to yourself, why have you done that? 

DCL wasn’t running out of gas, Ndyia wasn’t running out of gas. And it just destroyed all the momentum. He took off the most aggressive player off the pitch. And he took off the guy who had been feeding DCL. 

We lost momentum, we lost focus, and we handed the initiative two and a half minutes to Bournemouth, and they took it with both hands and then took the piss and had it on time by getting two more goals. 

I mean, it was just… I don’t think it’s ever happened. I’ve never seen an Everton side, and I can’t think of anybody else who’s been 2-0 up with two and a half minutes to go and completely nose things up. 

And for me, obviously, it’s on the players, they’re on the pitch, they have to react. But for me, Dyche was at fault with his substitutions. He made the wrong substitutions at the wrong time. If he felt there were changes to be made, he should have used common sense and made them from a footballing perspective, not from a, oh, the lad’s done well, let’s get him a standing ovation by letting him come off early. 

We’ve got to stop messing around with substitutions. And invariably, he makes them too late anyway, so that the players who are coming on haven’t got time to influence anything. So they’re a waste of bloody time. 

In fact, I’ve done all substitutions past the 80th minute in every game because they’re just a time -wasting exercise. That’s my initial run. I might come back for a second helping later on somewhere else. 

Paul: I think you make some interesting points Andy. For the second successive game in Goodison, we’ve been, or Dyche rather, who’s an experienced Premier League manager, and I don’t know if this is just going to turn out to be a Dyche knocking session or not. 

Andy: Oh let me come back in because I’ve just had a pop at him but I want to praise him for the first 80 minutes because he clearly said to the players go out and play hard, go for him because right from the end we haven’t seen this for a long long time, a long time, we haven’t seen an Everton side play on the front foot and push another team back. 

What we did yesterday and Bournemouth was second best for 80 minutes and everybody seemed to be enjoying themselves, everybody was putting a shift in, Tim was running the midfield, Harrison looked happier, probably because he had a day on the other flank who was causing Bournemouth all manner of problems and that was giving him a bit more space on the right hand side, DCL looked happy, obviously when he scored he’s going to be happy but everybody put a shift in for 80 minutes, 

Michael Keane scored a belting goal as we’ve said many times on this podcast, he’s arguably the best shooter on the squad and he proved it again yesterday, that wasn’t a centre -half goal, that was a centre -forward goal, I’m not suggesting he is a centre -forward but he took it perfectly and you don’t expect that from a centre-half, you do expect it, we expect more of that from the likes of DCL and Beto and it’s not the first time Michael Keane has scored goals of that nature, 

Andy: The one against Palace when we were 2-0 down at half time, he scored against Tottenham from about 25 yards a couple of years ago that rescued a point, we know he’s got a header in him but he’s also got fire in his boots and he proved it again yesterday and he had a decent game yesterday, everybody played relatively well for 80 minutes until Mr Dyche decided to change things for no apparent or obvious reason, 

when there were apparent and obvious reasons in the fact that as I said, Seamus Coleman was understandably running out of gas and maybe Tim to a slight degree as well because he’s played every game since he signed with us but he just got it wrong and the guy on the other bench, he used five subs, we used two and it worked perfectly for Bournemouth, they must have been, I bet they never stopped laughing all the way back down the motorway on their buses. 

sorry I interrupted you Paul. 

Paul: No, no, that’s right. I can’t even remember what I was going to say now. Oh, yeah. So we’ve been beat, you know, first two games at home. He is a manager. He’s played three hundred and seventeen PL. I looked it up. 

He’s played three hundred and seventeen. Lord, he managed three hundred and seventeen league games in the Premier League in his career. He’s what? Fifty two years old. He’s been beaten twice by a manager in his early thirties and a manager in his early forties. 

Between them, both have probably managed 50 Premier League games. Not even that. I just don’t know where I just don’t know where you go with him. I listened. I listened to his comments. I sent you a transcript of his comments and. 

As much as he’s done great work, he did great work in keeping us up in very adverse circumstances last year. I just don’t understand what he’s, I don’t understand, what he’s trying to do. I don’t understand what he’s trying to say. 

And I don’t understand how he’s trying to justify the start to the season. I think he’s had an absolute shocker of a start to the season. And this is from a man who, throughout his career, has not started seasons well. 

Andy: I think we have to part what he did last season now, we’re all very grateful for what he achieved last year after the points deductions and how he managed things and we survived and in the end relatively comfortably, but you can’t keep, you can’t keep harping back on stuff like that, that’s last season, it’s gone, it’s behind us, we’ve got to happen this season and we’ve got to somehow find some points and we were three games in and we haven’t got a point, 

Andy: this is 

Paul: That’s the same as last season, isn’t it? 

Andy: Yeah. 

Paul: I was just trying to provide some balance. George, what were your initial thoughts? 

George: You’re not looking to me for balance, are you? 

Paul: Well, I just had to provide some balance before you came in, George. 

George: Thanks very much. Andy took all the words out of my mouth, except one, which is a real shock to me from Dyche. He kind of pushed the responsibilities onto the players and said, you know, I’ve been selling them ever since I got here, they should do this, they should do that. 

I think Andy’s got that call absolutely 100% right. It’s his responsibility. He made a wrong call. He took off the two players that Bournemouth were most worried about. And you could almost hear when Andy went off in the middle of that standing ovation, which he certainly earned. 

But the Bournemouth players go in well. Thank blank for that, because he’d been tearing them to bits. And now you bring on Beto. And you don’t kind of want to slag people off, but you could almost hear McNeil and Harrison going, I’m not supposed to pass to him now, am I? 

He won’t keep it. He won’t use it. He won’t guard it. It was ludicrous, bad management. We had an international break coming up. To take Andy and DCL off with eight minutes to go makes no football sense whatsoever. 

I don’t mind people making mistakes. We all make mistakes. Of course we do. I was shocked that he didn’t hold his hands up and go, that was my fault. I shouldn’t have done what I did. And to bring Doucoure, who did nothing and Beto, who did less than nothing, only compounds the kind of malaise, the biggest state that was revealed in eight minutes yesterday that we are bottom of the league by some distance. 

And I agree with you as well. I don’t know where you go from here. If we had a functioning board and a stable economy, I would go, if you asked me for my vote as a member of the board, I would go, yeah, I think this might be time up on Sean now. 

But we don’t have that. So that apparates us to make a radical decision, even if it was the wrong one. And, you know, people would have every right to go, calm down, calm down. We lost, as you just said, we lost the first three games last season. 

There’s no need to go mad. You know, we’ve got an international break time to sort things out, get a few more players back. But what shocked me last yesterday was that he didn’t hold his hands up and go, I shouldn’t have done that, should I? 

Because Andy’s right, there was no football reason to do it. And if you want an example, Andy, of that happening before when United won the European Cup under Ferguson, Bayern Munich had played him off the park for most of the match, and he took off Matthias to get him a standing ovation, and United won. 

But Alf Ramsey took Charlton off in thingy bobbing back and bowing. Oh, great. I don’t have to mark Charlton anymore. And off he goes and scores the goal, the whole game now. It’s, you know, your phrase, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. 

It’s absolutely spot on. And, you know, that’s just my rant for today. Quite where we go from here, I don’t know. Get some people back, get some people fit. 

Paul: And I thought that I thought he was wrong to call the players out, although… 

George: Yeah, me too. I mean, you know, sorry, Paul, go on, you talk. 

Paul: No, I thought, first of all, I thought it was wrong to call the players out. I don’t think, I don’t think that performance warrants, yes, there were mistakes made at the end, but the mistakes made at the end were because players were actually dead on their feet and that they, that they weren’t tracking back. 

And, you know, Mykolenko was cut out of position. There was no cover from Gana. That’s why there was so much space at the back post. But for him to fail to recognize what his contribution to the loss was, and for him, actually, if when you listen to the post -match comments that he makes, you just understand what the limitations of, of how limited he views the game. 

I’m not sure I said that quite the way I wanted to say it. It shows the limitations of his, of his, of his tactics. Cause he starts talking about, you know, you finish off the game by going ugly. You don’t, you don’t make passes in pretty triangles. 

You don’t go past players. That’s not how the best teams work. The best teams, they make the changes in order to refresh them, and okay, I know we’ve got a limited squad, but they make the changes in order to refresh the team on the pitch, to create more problems for the opposition. 

So that the opposition can’t gain, um, a foothold in the game. We did the exact reverse. We get 2-0 up and his response is like we shut up shop. And it comes back to what we were talking about, um, with the Spurs game. 

We can’t shut up shop because we don’t have good enough players to shut up shop because we don’t have off, um, you know, first ranking, um, a defensive set up that’s done very well. I, I, Brathwaite’s not, not, not in the side that did extremely well last year. 

We don’t have a midfield that can protect, uh, any, you know, whoever our back four is, we, we can’t afford to do that. The only way to have won that game or to have played that game for my perspective was to make the changes and to keep on, on the front foot. 

Bournemouth didn’t have a, Bournemouth didn’t have a kick throughout most of the game. And yet here we have Dyche talking afterwards about us not doing the ugly side of it. There was no need to do the ugly side of it because we had proven for 85 of the 98 minutes a hour, however long we played, that we don’t have to play ugly all the time that we do have, especially with the people, the players that we’ve brought in. 

We do have the ability to actually play on the front foot and to play some nice attractive football. And with better finishing yesterday, we would have been four or five nil before we needed to make major changes. 

And to me, Dyche just got it completely and utterly wrong. And this shouldn’t come as any surprise. And I know, I appreciate what you’re saying Andy about not, you know, sort of harping back on what he did last year, but he did it. 

And he needs credit for, for that. And I know that you’re not taking away credit for what he did, but if you look through his career history, his career history in the Premier League is 1.1 points per game. 

What does that mean in real terms? That means in 38 games, he averages 42 points, which, you know, is about enough to keep you up. And given the way the league’s shaping up these days, you know, it’s enough to keep you up comfortably. 

But there are limitations. You look at the number of goals that he scored or rather his teams have scored in 317 games. They’ve only scored 310 goals at less than one goal a game, not over a spell of a short number of weeks. 

That’s going back all the way to 2014 -15 when he played his first. So he had 2014 -15 when he managed his first Premier League game. That’s a decade. And in a decade, he’s not managed to advance his style of football. 

He’s not managed to use the recruitment team that he has both at Burnley and now at Everson, albeit with limited resources to get all that. To find the players that can change him from a 1 .1 point a game manager, a less than one goal a game manager, to somebody that actually. 

and you know you can do much more than that. You talk about him being a great defensive manager or you know the suggestion is that he’s a great defensive manager. His goal difference over those 317 games is minus 144. 

So on average he starts a game half a goal behind the opposition. 

Andy: Thanks for that. No, no, no, no, and. 

Paul: That’s that that’s that’s that’s the reality of it. Yeah, and so how how or why can we actually expect anything more than what we’re seeing? especially given the limitations of the current squad because um And I don’t know enough about other other football teams but I suspect the current squad that he’s got is Not necessarily one of the weakest but it’s one of the thinnest squads and has one of the you know, 

The minimal opportunity to make changes in a game which I think we all accept he’s not very good at anyway And when he just made the changes um He just seems to make the wrong changes And to me it just everything about yesterday From so, you know Well, certainly the last course of the game from the point where where Bournemouth made their changes just shows His limitations as a manager and just shows the mindset that he’s got And I know that we can’t do much about it and I know it’s unlikely that we can recruit another manager with an entirely different philosophy and Particularly with the squad that we’ve got somebody that could come in and get a completely different tune As of the squad that we’ve got but by god dike has got to pick his game up from from where he is currently And I think he’s had a terrible start to the season, 

you know, the The Brighton game was awful that the Spurs game You know must go down as one of our worst performances given It’s at the beginning of the season must go down as one of our worst performances I would say almost ever and the last 15 20 minute, I wasn’t even that was it the last 10 minutes of yesterday? 

um We we just fell apart and we fell apart. Why fell apart because of the the changes that the manager made 

Andy: you 

Paul: And I don’t know what more to say about him. 

Andy: No. 

George: I enjoyed that. 

Andy: It’s difficult to know where we go from here now because, you know, I found myself thinking last night, you know, what are the players feeling, having played as well as they did for, let’s say, 85 minutes, certainly 80 minutes, until he made the change and died for decorate and subsequently better for DCL. 

Up until the first substitution, we’d been much the better side and we’re thoroughly deserving of the 2 -0 lead. We probably should have been 3 or maybe 4 -0 ahead because it had some, it carved out some good chances, they played well, the crowd was happy, the players looked happy. 

I just wonder what they were thinking half an hour later when they were sat in the docking room, having lost. What’s going through those players’ heads? 

George: That’s dead interesting, Andy, because I would bet you that they weren’t thinking what we were thinking, I bet they were thinking that’s our fault, especially the defenders. 

Andy: Mmm. 

George: They lose three goals in eight, nine minutes. They’ve got to look at themselves and go, what the hell did we do? Personally, I think you’re right. And the changes he made affected the atmosphere as a whole thing. 

He said it himself, that after the first goal went in, he thought, uh -oh, here we go. And he’s got every right to go, you can’t play like that when we’re two, one down. You’ve got to be tighter than that. 

But, you know. 

Andy: But if he’s admitting that after Brighton scored their first goal, he said to himself or to his, you know, to stone and woe, uh -oh, what, you know, here we go. 

George: But what does he do? He brings Beto on. If every other reason to bring Ashley Young on, it was then. 

Andy: Oh, James Garner. Well, you put someone else. 

Paul: in midfield. He should have brought Garner on, shouldn’t he? I mean, we desperately needed shoring up in the middle of the pitch. 

Andy: But, I don’t know, I just, I mean, we don’t know how footballers think, they’re a completely different animal to normal people, aren’t they, I mean, you know, there was 38 ,000 people there yesterday, and 35,000 went home, let’s just say, in extremely bad mood. 

And it’s, I don’t know, I just, it’s almost like you just feel like throwing in the towel and saying forget this again, the soldiers. This is, this is mental, this is, this is just torture. 

George: Let’s have a little look on the positive side. 

Andy: well yeah okay because there was a lot as i said before up to 80 minutes i thought there was an awful lot of positives energy pace intensity focus 

George: I didn’t actually mean that, Andy. I mean, there’s an international break coming up. What is the state of the injured, Branthwaite and Chermittii? Do we know anything about when they’re expected back? 

Paul: I don’t think it’s any time soon, George. No. Is it not? Not, not to the best of my knowledge. 

George: Alright. 

Andy: I mean we certainly need Branthwaite back. I think, you know, nothing against Michael Keane for what he did yesterday. He scored in a relatively decent game. But I think the partnership that Tarkovsky built with Branthwaite last year is needed more now than Tarkovsky and Keano. 

Chermitti, I think, I don’t think there’s as much pressure to get him back because he has shown that he can give us some pace and he’ll give us some excitement. So I think we can just let Chermitti come back as and when he’s ready rather than trying to rush him back. 

But certainly we need Branthwaite back as soon as possible. 

Paul: on the shoulders of a young player like Branthwaite. But there is no doubt about it, when Branthwaite plays in our defense, our defense is greater than the sum of its parts, meaning collectively we’re much better than the individual players in that defense, including Branthwaite. 

The problem that we have when we don’t have Branthwaite in the side is that a defense that already has inherent weaknesses becomes less than the sum of its parts. So you get this sort of double whammy effect. 

We’re losing a very, or one, we’re not having the services of a very good player in Branthwaite. But two, the players who play around him, the fallbacks, whoever the other center half is, and obviously we normally talk Tarkowski, just don’t play as well. 

They don’t play as well when he’s not in the side. 

Andy: you 

Paul: And that is a huge problem for us. And that’s the problem with having, unfortunately, with having keen back in the side, that keen makes the defense weaker than the sum of its parts because there’s uncertainty in the defense. 

We just don’t operate as a unit. We don’t have the situation where one central defender stays back, one central defender goes forward. There’s that uncertainty. There doesn’t seem to be that level of understanding. 

So, you know, again, as we spoke about last week with the Tottenham game, you get that situation, particularly when our midfield gets stretched, you get that situation where there’s an awful lot of space in front of the line at the back foretake, or rather just behind if you understand what I’m saying. 

Just behind the line. So, away from the goal, that area around the edge of the box. And again, you know, against Tottenham, it was the case where we just allowed runners to run into the box. And, you know, self-evidently with the goals that Bournemouth scored at the end of the game yesterday, people just run in the box, unmarked on challenge, back post, down. 

Andy: Hello. Sorry. We’re still here. No, I mean. 

Paul: I put my hand up and I don’t know a huge amount about football tactically, but if I can see that, I just don’t understand why the manager can’t see it. 

George: I think there’s another thing going on here. I would rather O’Brien start because he’s like Branthwaite, he’s balanced on his left foot, which means that Tarkowski is playing the right side of the defence. 

When Keane comes into the team, Keane plays the right side of the defence, Tarkowski goes to the left side of the defence, but for me, there’s two things here. One is that Keane is a better substitute than O ‘Brien because he can actually cover almost any position in a back three or a back four. 

But also, given the state of our squad, and this is very un-Dyche, it’s not going to happen, it’s time to put some trust in youth here. It’s time to give that boy Dixon the gig. And it’s time to say to Doucoure, only in emergencies, pal, Gana’s coming on before you. 

And I would give the gig to, until Branthwaite’s back, I would give it to O’Brien just because he’s a better balanced player than Michael Keane is in that position. But we’ve got a real problem about cohesion, and I think, you know, what Ndyia showed and what that boy whose name I can’t pronounce. 

Andy: Ireogbunam. 

George: Well done, Andy. I’m very impressed with you again. 

Andy: They’re opening. 

Paul: Just, just, just. 

Paul: Just call him Tim 

George. Oh, that’s a fair idea. Yeah, Tim, they’re doing something with youth and belief and naivety, which actually, when the team fell apart yesterday, it fell apart from experienced players, Coleman, Tarkowski, Keene, Garna, old people who made mistakes. 

And made mistakes that they’ve made loads of times too, because you have a long career, you make mistakes again, you make kind of the same mistakes. I think it’s definitely time, and it’s not gonna happen. 

I can feel it’s not gonna happen under Dyche, but it’s time to go, right, come on. Three games, 10 goals, no points, put some kids in here, put these kids in here, let’s, you know. Because otherwise you end up in a situation where you go, oh, you can’t play them now, because this is a really important game. 

You really need, well, we’re gonna get to six pointers in a minute, if we’re not careful. 

Andy: Yeah, I can see your reasoning there, bro, about O’Brien. That makes sense. It does. And I think you’re right about Keane being a bit, you know, better to come off the bench because you know that, well, as we said, he’s shown it again yesterday that if if necessary, pushing forward, you know, I mean, almost to the point of who would be the better last 10 minute substitute if we need a goal, better or Keane. 

George: I could get very nasty about Beto, I’m sure he’s a really nice bloke and he’s a good deal bigger than me, but he’s horticultural, mate. 

Andy: I agree. 

Paul: We seem to like those types of players, he sort of reminds me of Strackel… 

George: I thought this is the latest in a long line of very willing, very decent-hearted, absolutely talentless number nines that we’ve offered up to the public. 

Andy: Oh Cracker, there’s an awful long list of them. 

George: It’s not out. 

Andy: Goes back to Bernie Wright and Rod Belfort. 

George:Yeah, man. Breath of Angel. Breath of Angel. I don’t like it. It is also… Cenk. 

Andy: I don’t think we should go over that old grab. It’s not fair on the listening public. It’s not been going on overnight. No, it’s been turning off at night. I mean, nightmares. 

George: We’re playing Aston Villa next. 

Paul: Yeah, before we get to Villa, in all seriousness, we’ve got two weeks now, international break. 

Andy: Yeah. 

Paul: Let’s assume for a second that we’ve got a functioning board, we’ve got a director of football who’s still in the job and we’ve still got Farad Moshiri nominally in charge of the club and has the authority to either fire or retain or indeed recruit a new manager. 

Should he be on the phone to Sean tomorrow and say Sean thanks very much really appreciate what he did last year but I don’t think he’s going to work this season, I need to find a new manager. 

Andy: It can only, surely, whoever can only do that if they’ve got a replacement lined up. 

Paul: OK, so the conclusion from that, Andy, is if you have a replacement lined up, you’ve already made the decision to fire him. 

Andy: Yeah. 

Paul: And do you think that’s the right decision? 

George: I would think it was the right decision if I trusted the board. 

Andy: Yeah, I don’t think I don’t think it’s been a round decision. 

George: can’t. You know, I just said if I were a member of a board, I would go that this I think I would cast my vote, that time’s up. But I’m not a member of a board and neither is anybody else ever, including Farhad Moshiri. 

And we’ve already had Allardyce, Foldy armsFrank, Benitez and a whole catalogue of people who would make Stracularesi look like Di Stefano or something. So, you’re the businessman, you know, do you think, would you back that now? 

Yeah, I would. You would? Have you got a replacement in mind? Yeah, go on. 

Paul: I’ll say, I’d go out and get David Moyes. I’d bring David Moyes back to the club. David Moyes would bring some unity, first of all. He would bring a sense that here we’ve got an adult in charge of the club. 

He would take control of the club like he did when Bill Kenwright and an almost equally useless board were in situ for many, many years. And he would bring, well, he would bring stability. He would bring some confidence and he would bring some purpose. 

And I think he would do a job for us. I think he would do the job in the sense that he would keep us in the division comfortably. He would keep us probably mid-table. I wouldn’t expect anything more than that. 

He would unify the fans and the team and he would create a sense of identity about Everton Football Club, which the current players, and probably it’s not the player’s job to do so, can’t do. Dyche certainly can’t do that from my perspective. 

And neither Moshiri nor the board can do so. He would be the one, he is the one person I think that’s currently available who might be interested in taking the job. And I would, if I was Moshiri, I would have already made that call today. 

I would have picked up the phone to David Moyes. I said, David, what does it take to bring you back? And I’ve always been one that’s been against bringing people back. Generally speaking, I think it’s not a good idea. 

But in these circumstances, it is so critical for the club that we, first of all, do everything that we can do in order to stay in the Premier League. Secondly, it’s so critical that the club has a sense of identity, has a sense of leadership, and has a sense of professionalism about it, on and off the pitch, that really only somebody like David Moyes could bring. 

Because that’s exactly what he did, albeit, you know, many years ago now. But that’s exactly what he did under Bill Kenwright’s chairmanship. And when he was a majority shareholder, I can’t think of anybody else as a manager who could come in and perform all of those roles, because whoever comes in has to perform all of those roles, because those people don’t exist within the club. 

George: Wow, that was pretty good. 

Andy: No, I think they might. I think they might be. I’m not so sure that your assumption that the fan base would be. 100 percent in agreement with you, Paul. I think there are enough comments on social media over, you know, since yesterday afternoon to say no, no to David Morris coming back. 

I’m not sure I get all the arguments you’ve made in favour of him. I’m not even sure that he would take it. 

Paul: Well, there’s only one way of finding out, isn’t there? 

Andy: Well, exactly. Yeah, somebody needs to pick the phone up to him and say, would you be interested? I mean, I mean, the other thing is well, it’s what’s the branch for not having. 

Paul: Happing him, sorry. Pardon? What are the grounds for not having him? 

Andy: the grounds that you’ve admitted it normally, you express it, is that bringing someone back is a retrograde step. It rarely works. 

Paul: OK, so what’s the alternative? I don’t know. Sorry, I’m not trying to give you a hard time. George, you made the point. No, no, I know that. What would you do if it was your, if I was in Moshiri’s shoes? 

Given all the options available to us, that’s what I would do. If it’s an alternative, I’d like to hear it. 

Andy: Right, the thing is, we’re trying to think logically and sensibly, okay, Moshiri rarely does that. Moshiri, by his own admission, wants a Hollywood manager, as he said when he recruited Ronald Kolman. 

He thought he was going to pitch Everton up alongside Guardiola at City, and he did for one game when we beat them 4-0, but he’s such a loose cannon in his thinking that it wouldn’t surprise me if Moshiri is thinking about doing it, that he makes his first phone call to Jurgen Klopp. 

Paul: Yeah, I mean, no one would say that. 

Andy: But Klopp would say no. He’d say, thanks very much for considering me. I’m flattered. No, I’ve just resigned as, you know, I’ve just left Liverpool. I’m not going to come and join everything. To which Monsieur, he would say, yeah, Benitez went down that track and he came and joined us. 

I just think he doesn’t think logically, you’re trying to think sensibly and logically that David Moyes would be the safe pair of hands, you know, to take on what we’ve got, where we are now and keep us in the division. 

Monsieur, he doesn’t think like that. He wants to be bold and brassy and 

Paul: I’ve got the bit between my teeth now and the go ahead and I’m an advisor to I’m not but let’s imagine for a second I’m an advisor to Farhad Moshiri. I’m one of his bankers and one of those people that work for Deloitte or for Raine or any of those other investment banks that buy and sell football clubs on behalf of their owners. 

If I was one of the bankers who was involved in this process, I would be picking up the phone to Farhad Moshiri and say look, you want to sell the club and you’ve been trying to sell the club for the last two years. 

Yeah you’ve got some interest in this from this guy Textor which we know we can talk about in a few minutes. He might or might not be able to buy the club. Don’t you think we should get the club in as stable a position so that if it’s him it’s him and if it’s not Textor then it’s somebody else that makes the club as stable and attractive as possible in in this period between now and the end of the season when at the end of the season hopefully we move to Bramley-Moore as a Premier League club. 

What do you think,Farhad? Yeah that’s a very good point. I hadn’t thought about it from that perspective. That’s what Farhad might say. So forget the football for a second. Just purely from a business point of view in terms of his ability to sell the club be it to Textor or be it to somebody else. 

What’s he got to do? He’s got to stabilize the club. He’s got to put the club in a position where a potential buyer sees some professionalism and some certainty and a direction at least in which the club is moving and I’ve got to just go back I’m going to labour the point I’ll go back to the point that the only person I can think of who would even be interested or even possibly interested in doing this and has sufficient credibility and is available is David Moyes. 

Andy: That’s it from a common sense point of view. I agree entirely. When is he ever employed common sense? 

Paul: No, you’re absolutely not. 

Andy: Even under pressure from the bankers Paul, I still wouldn’t bet against him, if he is deciding to make a change, that he comes in with a complete curveball appointment. 

George: Do either of you think that Kevin Thelwell is asking himself these questions now? And that Kevin Thelwell, if any of this is happening, would expect a call to go, who do you think? What do you think we should do now? 

You are the director of football at this club. The football is 10 goals. We’ve scored two, no points. I’m just wobbling a bit. What do you think, Kevin, lad? What do you think he would say? 

Andy: If I was Kevin Thelwell, I would expect to be involved in the conversation about making a change, for sure, because if it’s done without any involvement of him or him having any knowledge of it, then he’s having his position completely and totally undermined. 

And if, you know, if you’re in a position like that, and you get completely, completely nonplussed and undermined by the hierarchy, you might as well, you might as well walk, you might as well bug it off yourself and go find another job. 

George: I agree with that, Andy. What I’m asking you is, do you think Thelwell is asking himself these questions, the same questions we’re asking? Do you think he’s thinking about Moyes? 

Andy: Do you think, Doug, let me answer your question with a question. Do you think Thelwell is putting the call into Moshiri to say, boss, I think we need to make a change? And this is. 

George: So Andy. 

Andy: Yeah. 

Paul: because I think his reasoning will be Dyche came in 20 months ago and all the work that I’ve done for the club since then has been built around the belief that Dyche would be the manager for a period of time, including this season and probably next season as well. 

Andy: So with respect to Paul, that’s unrealistic in the world of football. 

Paul: Yeah, I mean, yep, that’s fine. I’m just answering the question as I see it. Personally, I don’t think Thelwell has a future in this club. Because I don’t think he has the authority that’s required to make those types of judgments and to make those types of suggestions too far at Moshiri. 

Oh, whoever takes over. Yeah, I don’t think he carries enough weight. Or he would carry enough weight in the argument. He might be asked what his opinion is and how it changes his approach to what he’s doing as director of football. 

But I don’t think, I don’t think for a second, Moshiri would think that he had enough weight to put forward a proposal that Moshiri himself would just take. 

George: You didn’t think Marcel Brand had that? No, absolutely not. 

Paul: And I think Thelwell would recognise that his position is more secure, regardless of what happens to the football club, with Dyche in charge. 

George: Right. 

Andy: Coming up on 7news at 6… A new story is coming up… A new story is coming up… A new story is coming up… A new story is coming up… 

Paul: He’s nailed his colours to the Dyche mast. 

Andy: Hmm. Well, 

Paul: I suppose, ultimately, do we think something as radical as that is required? And is there a case for saying, well, no, we’ve had a difficult start to the season. We know the reasons why. We know that Diches is a slow starter. 

Teams generally don’t quite look as fit as other teams at the beginning of the season, but then he gets some of that back as the season goes on, because Dyche’s teams tend to finish the season more strongly, or at least have a part of the season where they pull together. 

He’s quite a streaky manager, isn’t he? He can go for periods where he doesn’t have good results, and then he’ll go for a period where he has some decent, decent results. And that’s characterized throughout his career. 

George: And but what you’re what you’re kind of saying, Paul, is so where last season’s the objective for this season is to be absolutely sure that we go to Bramley Moore as a Premier League club, that’s that’s the height of ambition. 

George: Correct. 

Paul: Yeah. We might be budgeting for finishing 15th, just for argument’s sake, but if we finish 17th, nobody’s going to be too concerned about that. 

Andy: Yeah. 

Paul: And if, if you’re the potential buyer of a football, of the football club, be it John Textor or be it somebody else. That has to enter into the conversations that you are having with Farhad Moshiri. So the conversation with Moshiri as a potential buyer will be something along the lines of we can agree a prices in terms of what you get for the sale of your equity, which is not an awful lot, but we’ll, 

we’ll give you something. And that’s just a negotiation. We need to have some discussions around the people who’ve provided the money that have kept the club in business. And we can go and talk to Rights and Media Funding, 777 ACAP and the Friedkin group about that. 

Don’t really need to involve you in that Farhad. Thanks very much. But actually, we also need to know what the plans are to make sure that the club that we buy, and let’s assume that they’re going to buy it in the next few months, which is really what needs to happen, is still going to be a Premier League club come May 2025, because if we think there’s a decent chance of us not being or of Everton not being a Premier League club, 

we’re not going to buy now. So you tell me, Farhad Moshiri, what are you going to do today that makes the situation better than it was on Saturday evening at five o ‘clock? 

George: And do you think he’d have a response to that? 

Paul: Well, I think he has to. I don’t think it could be a very good response based on, you know, his business performance whilst at Everson. But I mean, surely that’s a question that a potential buyer has to ask. 

George: I would have thought so, yeah. But any buyer getting involved with him would have to look, you know, you’ve always talked about due diligence. If you look at his track record over the past, I don’t know, six months, has he ever been here? 

Has he watched us play? Does he know anything about anything? Do you seriously think he’s got a plan? I think he’s got a big headache called Everton Football Club. And some stupid bastard come out of the closet and buy it off me, will you? 

I’m up to here with it, sick to death of it. 

Paul: Okay, so I’m, I’m not John Texter, obviously, I’m somebody else who wants to buy the football club. Yeah. And as I’m saying to Farhad Moshiri, as I said a few minutes ago, we can agree on a price. 

I can talk to the creditors. That’s not a problem. I can talk to my bankers about making sure there’s enough money to finish off the stadium to give the club enough working capital to see it through the rest of the year. 

But I really need to address football performance. And particularly given that, you know, I might already have a multi club operation with another director of football who runs the group that you know, whose opinions I respect and trust. 

I need to bring that person into these discussions now because without that input, we’re not going to buy a club. If that was the conversation, Farhad Moshiri has nowhere to go other than to say, all right, I’m listening. 

George: Yes, but at the point where you’re going, what are you going to do about it? I think he’d go, I don’t know. 

Paul: All right, so then then there’s the as the willing buyer, you say, well, I understand that, it’s difficult to understand, let me help you. And my view is that we need some stability, my view is that we need some professionalism, that we need some leadership, we actually need somebody and that the industry respects, because everything doesn’t have a great deal of respect within the industry at this moment in time. 

Absolutely not. And that’s not a slight on Dyche at all. It’s just a reflection of where the club is. So my proposal would be assuming that he’s willing to do it, that we bring David Moyes in and we bring him in as quickly as possible to give him the maximum amount of time, possibly to prepare for the January window, because if we can get the sale done by then, maybe we can find some money to buy some players. 

But even if not, the maximum amount of time to get this squad, as it is currently, in a shape where we can comfortably be mid table, 10th, 12th. 

Andy: Well, with it being the international break, I’m going to pull, I’m going to be a bit downbeat on that. I don’t think anything’s going to happen in the next 72, 96 hours. I think the international break has fallen at the ideal time for him to almost not do anything, not consider it. 

And yet it should be the ideal time. We’ve got two weeks to make a move. If we’re going to make a move, move, you know, be decisive, move quickly. If he, if he, if he wants to replace you on date and he wants to bring in David Moyes, get on the phone to Moyes, see if he’ll accept an offer and then do the, do the business. 

Yeah. And give, and give Moyes or whoever as much time as possible in this two week break to work with the players who are not away on international duty. But I suspect we’ll do very little. And if we, if we make a change, and if we make a change in the next four nights, it’ll be a week on Wednesday. 

Andy: And that gives the new guy no, whoever it is, no time to do anything. And then we go to Aston Vanilla on the Saturday for the five, for the two time kickoff. And well, well, that happens. 

Paul: Yeah. 

Andy: The trouble is, we really don’t know about the mechanics of what’s going on within the club, how highly Thelwell is respected or how highly his opinions are considered. We don’t know who’s driving conversations with Dyche, whether it’s Thelwell, whether it’s Moshiri, whether it’s Chong, we suspect not because he’s… 

George: I think anybody’s having a conversation, Andy. I’ve got no faith that anybody’s talking to anybody about anything. 

Andy: That’s what I’m saying, that’s why I think, that’s why I’m hurting on the side of I don’t think anything will happen and were it to happen it will be a need you reaction a week on Wednesday. 

Paul: Well, yeah, I get all that, Andy, and, you know, that’s a perfectly logical explanation based on, you know… Past history. Past history, yeah. But there has to be a change. We have to make a change. 

George: And what your outline is really sensible. 

Paul: You know, I’m not, I just keep saying this, I’m not on the board, obviously, of Everton Football Club, nor indeed any other football club, but five o’clock last night, I would have been on the phones to Farhad wherever it is, it’s probably in Monaco, saying this is what we have to do. 

You have to call a board meeting now, and we have to get David’s approval for this. Maybe somebody should have already sounded them out, get him on the phone, get his agreement and let’s tell Dyche that thanks very much, put the games over, and we move forward from here. 

This is a watershed, this is a line under which we can draw. There’s enough evidence from the Bournemouth game to the first three quarters of the Bournemouth game that we’ve got a squad that can play football and do enough to stay in the Premier League, but we need to resolve some of the other issues which became apparent later in the game. 

When Dyche’s tactical abilities were shown to be poor, when his substitution capabilities were shown to be appalling, and when listening to his post-match comments, his mindset became very apparent, and none of that works going forward, none of that would give a new owner of the football club the confidence to buy the football club today, so let’s do it now. 

George: You make a compelling case. I’m really sad. It’s not going to happen. I’m kind of with Andy. I’m far too cynical now about the state of that club and the state of the people that you know, we call the board. 

Andy: It’s a board  in name only, isn’t it? 

George: I, I think your analysis is right. I hope they hear it. Cool. And personally, I would, you know, I was looking at that manager yesterday and thinking these children have taken over football. I wouldn’t go for Moisey, personally fond of him as I have been. 

I would want us to find somebody from this new generation of thinking of people who, you know, want to play football, for God’s sake. But it might be too late for that. And pragmatism might be, you know, because as you’ve said, and as we’ve all said, and as every Evertonian knows, we do not want to go to Bramley-Moore to play Rotherham. 

Next August, no disrespect to Rotherham. So maybe pragmatism is right. And I don’t have a better idea than yours, but I have no confidence whatsoever that it will happen. It’s a really good idea and a very forthright sensible one. 

I don’t think it’s going to happen. 

Paul: I’m sure when we get together next weekend. 

Andy: They’ll do it now just to spite us. 

Paul: If this is some form of reverse psychology, then great. 

Andy: Yeah. What else is there? I’m fine. 

George: I have a question. I would like to know, I mean, this might involve you, you’re explaining Mr. Textor and where you think the possibility of that is. But I would like to know, by what process Everton Football Club could become the first club in the Premier League to be owned by fans and not by super, super rich people. 

Andy: Is it called St Domingo’s? 

that would be that would be a whole new club I know I know I know where you’re coming from bro you want you want to be taken out of the way of of people who basically don’t have a clue what they’re doing can’t have the surely for all these money has proven to be a disastrous owner forever at the football club so a fan’s cooperative if you like would need to raise an awful lot of money 

George: now. Yeah, billions. 

Andy: Yeah, I mean if you know the worldwide fan base of Evertonians is is rumoured to be in the region of 400,000 plus Well, you know, even if even if everybody even if everybody could Stump up 100 quid You know, would it be it probably wouldn’t be enough You know and then 

Paul: enough. 

Andy: No, no 

George: At what point, Paul, how much money do you have to put down to take a plan to a bank to go backers? This is radical. This is not no marker in British football, except, you know, the ones you’ve talked about, Portsmouth and Lincoln, I think you’ve mentioned. 

How much do you have, you know, like buying a house, isn’t it? What’s the deposit you would put down before you would think a bank would go on them? We’re back here. 

Paul: I think I think on the basis that those people going to the bank could say, obviously, it’s not going to be us, but we have a professional management team that can come in and run the club that, you know, they’ve run football clubs before they know the business, etc, etc. 

And you’d be asking the bank to lend you probably 350 million of that. The business could support that. So we need to be able to present a cheque and that cheque to clear for around 400 million. 

George: And then you think a bank would bankroll you. 

Paul: because the bank would say well providing you’ve got a professional management team, providing you’ve got professional board directors, we’ll take security on the stadium, we’ll take security on all of the Premier League revenues, we’ll take security probably on future sales of players, yeah we can do that. 

Andy: Would the bank want to put someone on the board themselves? 

Paul: CFO? No they wouldn’t because that causes them all sorts of areas of conflict in terms of compliance and also in terms of competition because they could never really lend to another football club if they had somebody sitting on the board. 

George: 400 million pounds. 

Paul: Yeah. 

George: What did you say the worldwide Evertonian family was, Andy? 

Andy: It’s rumoured to be 400,000 plus. 

George: So that’s… I can’t do the maths. Is that a £1 ,000 each? It is a £1,000 each, yeah. 

Andy: the big ask. 

George: Yep, this is a big ask. 

Andy: Well, could a co-operative do any worse? 

George: Well, not if no, because, you know, Paul just said, so long as it hires the right people. 

Andy: Yeah. 

George: And, you know, I don’t care anymore what people think ever since for the last 25 years, we haven’t had the right people. 

Andy: No. 

George: running the, you know, running the shop. And I do believe in all the kerfuffle with, you know, 777 and Andy Bell and George Downing and think there are people around who care about the club and who know about stuff like that. 

But if you said to them, would you please put your opinions into this and help us select the right people if you yourselves are not the right people? I mean, I mean, it’s a pipe dream and I don’t know how you organize it, but I feel as though the Everton family worldwide needs some form of crazy hope that we can dig our way out of this without it going to. 

And here’s your cue for Textor Paul, some other American person. You know, I mean, every time an American businessman tips up and Friedkin was straight, according to you, I just see the Glazers. 

Paul: Yeah. 

George: I don’t want to see the Glazers. 

Paul: I mean, I suppose, you know, if you’re, if you’re a Liverpool supporter, you could, you pointed the Fenway sports group and say there’s an example of American investors coming in and doing a good job at the football club. 

Right. Just just just as an example. And in fact, to be fair, if you’re a Crystal Palace supporter, you probably say, well, look, you know, what’s the problem? Okay, we got Steve, Steve Parish, who’s our chairman, who runs the club on a day to day basis. 

And then we’ve got four, actually more than that, but we’ve got four investors, all Americans, who have got a say in how the club is run because they’ve got 25% of the votes each, including John Textor. 

And so there are examples of clubs with, you know, foreign owners. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, they’ve got you from the UK based investors. There are examples of clubs that have done, have done well as a result of that type of investment. 

So I don’t think it should be dismissed completely out of hand. But I, I think John can’t really have much confidence in his, in his, his judgment. So, anyway, can I just say a few words about John Textor? 

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, it’s been a really interesting week. I wrote an article and I promised a second article, which I will write, just, I just want to make a couple of points, very, very clear. 

There was a series of four articles published in Brazil, or by a Brazilian reporter, a guy called Lucio de Castro, during the week that was extremely critical of John Textor, critical of him for a number of reasons. 

And then, you know, they’re very easy to find those reports, if you want to read them. John Textor produced a very, very robust defense of the claims within those articles, including that the journalist had not contacted him to hear his side of the story, that effectively it was just one side of the story. 

And in fact, John Textor is now going to sue that individual. Effectively for defamation. And he very, very aggressively made the point that if other people wanted to make similar comments, that he would pursue those people as well, which is, of course, his right. 

And one of the strange things about the American system is that you can make claims in court, which would be defamation outside of court, but aren’t defamation in the court. So in a sense, I can, I can see it. 

Yeah, yeah, there’s a it’s very similar to to parliament in that sense. So, you know, I can see where John Textor is coming from. My argument with John Textor and I’ve emailed and called Eagle Football Holdings on this is not necessarily what he’s done in his business career elsewhere. 

It’s the issues I have surrounding how he sells Crystal Palace? Because it’s not easy to sell something that we have a 45 percent stake in. And that 45 percent stake doesn’t give you any control, gives you no more control than the other shareholders have. 

That’s one point. I’ve become very much against the multiclub model, which if you listen to Steve Parrish, the Crystal Palace chairman, he has this opinion as well that there will always be a conflict of interest between the individual club and the bigger multiclub model itself. 

Because sometimes at some point a John Textor or somebody else has to make a decision and that decision might be, is it in the interest of the football club or is it in the interest of the wider business? 

And sometimes they will conflict. And of course, most people will always do what’s best overall or what were the biggest commitment lies in order to reach that decision. And, of course, the other point with John Texter is that, and he claims that one of the ways that he could achieve the purchase of Everton is not only through the sale of his Palace shares, but also through the possible listing of Eagle Football Holdings on the New York Stock Exchange. 

And I’m just not questioning John in particular on this, I’m just making the point that those claims have been made before, and he hasn’t yet been able to achieve those listings. So if he was somehow able to sell the Crystal Palace shares to somebody else, how does he fund Everton going forwards? 

Because from my perspective, it’s not clear where he gets the funding from to fund Everton Football going forward. What does he say? Well, he says that it would be partly from the proceeds of the listing, partly from the proceeds of the sale of the Crystal Palace shares, and partly from his own personal proceeds. 

And there would be an element of debt, as indeed, and let’s make this clear, that there is going to be an element of debt in any purchase of the football club, nobody’s going to come in and just buy the club and wipe out all of the debt, that isn’t going to happen. 

And I just don’t think that he has the resources to do that. And that’s evidenced by when he purchased Olympique Lyonnais, effectively ending up taking out a 90% mortgage on the club. Now, some of that’s been restructured since, and people will argue, well, the club is actually doing better than it did prior to his earning it. 

That’s not the point. The point from my perspective is, I think it’s incumbent upon him to demonstrate how we would fund the purchase of Everton Football Club and how we would fund the future development of the club going forward. 

And I don’t think that’s an unreasonable question for a fan to ask of any future owner. So it’s really quite, quite interesting, the situation that we’re in. Clearly, Moshiri believes that John Textor is the right person to buy the football club, but then he’s believed that other people in the past have been the right people to buy Everton Football Club and it’s been proven that they weren’t. 

And I’m not comparing John Textor with 777 in any sense. I’m just making the point that Moshiri’s judgment in itself can be considered questionable. So I don’t think, I don’t think there’s a football club where any further forwards than we have been for many, many months now. 

And, you know, just to link up again with the comments I was making about maybe getting rid of Dyche and maybe bringing in David Moyes, not only do we have to address all the business issues and all of the funding issues and all of the issues about how the new buyer is going to fund the football club, we really, really, really have to address the footballing issues. 

Andy: There’s no easy answers, is there? 

Paul: No. But we’ve known for such a long time that there are no easy answers to this. And the problem that we have, and we talked about it earlier, is that the longer we delay making the necessary decisions, the more difficult it gets for whoever it is that comes in and has to deal with the situation once the decisions are made. 

Like anything in life, a problem that is ignored can only get bigger. It won’t solve itself by itself. And that’s where I think we are. 

George: In a bizarre way, that’s kind of why I’m talking about a fan cooperative take -home, a football club, because then I know that the people who are involved in it care and give a shit. It’s not just about money, it’s about the club. 

George: They want the right thing for the club. So, because we have listenership of 48,000, that’s 100,000 each, guys, if you’re listening. Crowdfunding evidence. 

Andy: Yeah. 

George: I’m just looking in the sofa now, Andy. 

Paul: Yeah, so, as ever, an interesting week on and off the pitch with, well, some people have got to start making decisions and putting those decisions into. 

George: How long have you been saying that? 

Paul: Well, for as long as the three of us have had interaction. 

Andy: Thank you. 

Paul: Yeah. And not just me, to be fair, there are other people out there that think similarly. 

Andy: Well, we… 

Paul: with patient breath indeed all right guys thank you so much no worries that’s been a very heavy conversation um well yeah yes and 

Andy: but let’s see what happens this week and we’ll reconvene next weekend and I’m sure we’ll find other things to talk about even if there’s no games. 

George: Yeah, Alli alley might get fit. 

Andy: I think next week we need to muse over the kind of our cup draw the way that was engineered. We’ll leave that till next weekend I reckon. 

Paul: Yeah, we didn’t even get there. Can I just finish on one positive note, I think. And there’s a, and I hope he doesn’t mind me using his name, there’s a guy on Twitter called Gary Fitzsimmons, who has always been a massive supporter of us, always sends me messages saying thank you for the podcast and everything else, blah, blah, blah. 

He retired very recently. And so I just wanted to wish him a very, very happy and healthy retirement. And to thank him personally for all of his support for the podcast, because literally every week, he sends us a message saying thank you or asking when the next podcast is going to be available. 

So Gary, when you when you listen to this, 

George: Did you not afford the million, Gary? 

Paul: Well, yeah, that’s a good point. He did say he retires, but maybe he has. 

Andy: How’s his pension fund stacked up? 

Paul: I think if he goes home and says to his wife, Darling, I just bought a football club. 

Andy: I’ve just been listening to these three nutters on a podcast. 

George: No, his wife would go. Just don’t say the word ever. 

Paul: All right, gents, thank you so much. Thank you to everybody for listening and the show goes on. 

Andy: Cheers, bro. 

George: and upwards.