Paul: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, depending upon where in the world you are and what time of the day you’re listening to this episode of Talking the Blues. I think before I say hello to Andy and George, I should just explain that apparently it sounds like I’m on the dark side of the moon, so if I disappear at any point in this recording, it’s a technical fault. 

It’s not George, Andy, or me. George and Andy, how are you both? 

George: Not bad, not bad. Yeah, not bad. Good. 

Paul: Well, we have a point. I was going to say, on the can’t grumble bit, you’re the first blue I’ve spoken to in weeks that could say that. 

Andy: Well, we’ve got a point on the board, don’t we? And I think what we’ve seen in the last five or six days is a bizarre contrast in the way that Everton go about playing football, because quite frankly, Tuesday against Southampton in the Karaoke Cup was a shambles 20 percent playing at home. 

And possession playing at home was completely unacceptable. Just just not what Evertonians expect of Everton football called playing a home game in any competition at Goodison Park. And then yesterday, you know, we went to Leicester. 

All right, two sides who are struggling for form and this and the other. And we played some good stuff yesterday, you know, against, you know, relative to the opposition we were facing. And I thought it was an entertaining game. 

We thoroughly deserve to be leading at half time. Could probably have been, you know, two, maybe even three goals up. And then, you know, the usual happens? You know, five minutes of pressure from Leicester. 

And somehow we managed to concede from the corner, which was disappointing. But I thought yesterday, considering the conditions that the game was played in that torrential rain, I actually thought both sides gave a really, really good effort to put on an entertaining game. 

And at the end of the day, we got what we deserved, which was a point. You know, if you were really, really critical, you’d think, well, we should have had three and we probably should have had three. 

But on the day, you know, a point was probably fair. But I just think yesterday highlighted the fact that Tuesday was so abysmal against Southampton. Like, why were we so passive at home? And yet much more aggressive and proactive at the King Power yesterday. 

Just kind of baffles me. Well, and. I mean, oh, did you say I could. 

George: I’m just thinking back to the number of times we three, and I’m sure we’re not alone, have gone, why can’t we sustain a level of performance? I remember back with Ancelotti, when Ancelotti came on, I don’t know why they played like crap. 

I don’t know. And you’re right, Tuesday night was just the pits. And yesterday was a whole pile better. Will they sustain it? Will they come out? They should do, because they obviously needed the team, needed that point. 

Of course, we would have all preferred three, but they needed to get on the board. And I’m sure they as a team feel better. And it’s one more week till Branthwaite comes back. And the balance is back in the defense at the back of the, I think Michael Keane’s playing well and doing well. 

He’s not a left -footed center half, and we need him. And then, you know, I mean, like you, I enjoyed the game. All credits to all the athletes who were there yesterday. They played well in extraordinary conditions. 

But you’d have to explain to me why a specialist right back sits on the bench for the whole game, whilst a really quite talented midfield player makes, in the fairest possible way, a town halls of being a right back. 

And I wouldn’t bet, you know, if somebody told me that Garner had gone straight off the pitch and gone to the actually go, please don’t ever put me there again. I would go, yeah, you’re right. Because, you know, it could have cost us the whole game. 

I didn’t understand what was going on there at all. I couldn’t make heads or tails of that. And, you know, two things I’d like to hold my hand up to. I thought Doucoure was dreadful, and so was Mangala against Southampton. 

And yesterday, Doucoure had his best game for ages. It was great to see him back there, closing people down, getting close, sticking his foot in, getting involved. He was great. And Mangala, who, you know, I was cynical about after the effort against Southampton, it’s obvious that he’s not a defensive player. 

He’s not a tackler. He can close people down, but he’s not going to get in and win the ball. But some of his offensive forward passing was really good, I thought. So I was thinking that if IGG gets back and gets back to some fitness, there’s the makings of a midfield with him and Tim and, you know, Mangala, there’s a making of options in midfield for Everton. 

And I think when Branthwaite gets back, things will stabilise. And that’s my two pence yesterday, except I thought DCL played really well. And it was great that Beto didn’t come on. That was a big positive. 

I began to work on the fact that it’s almost an anagram of to be or not to be. Anyway, what do you think, Paul? 

Paul: What did I think? I’ve really struggled since the end of the game yesterday to try and put any sort of coherent thoughts together as regards to the game because yeah both of you are right in what you said but there’s still something missing to me and I can’t put my finger on it. 

I don’t know if it’s the manager. In a sense I almost feel as if it’s lazy just to go and attack the manager but I just can’t get over the idea that he’s for whatever reason having done what he did last year is not able to do what he should be able to do this year and I think to a degree that yesterday’s game demonstrated that again whilst we’re smaller in terms of numbers of first -team players I think we’ve got a slightly stronger squad than we had last year and if the players are sort of left to their own devices I think they’re developing a style that is actually slightly better than the one that the manager would like them to play but then when the manager intervenes in the second half and starts to make the substitutions that he makes all the good work that we’ve done in the earlier part of the game seems to disappear. 

I mean you know Leicester are no great shakes are they? They’re going to be in and around the bottom five bottom half a dozen teams in the league. 70 odd minutes. We showed that because you know we’re not a great team but we are a much better team than Leicester for the vast majority of the game but yet when the manager decides to try and shut up shop and take off your most effective players and bring on less effective players in less effective positions and withdraw players from positions where they’ve been playing well to positions where they’re proven not to play that well. 

You know I’m not a great one really for in-game statistics but you know if you look at the game before the substitutions and you look at the game after the substitutions it looks like two completely different games in terms of possession in terms of you know number of passes made all of the statistics which demonstrate whether one team or the other has the advantage and before the substitutions were made we clearly had the advantage and we looked you know quite comfortable actually but after the substitutions were made you know I think we handed the game back to to Leicester and it was only the fact that Leicester are not a particularly good team and don’t present a huge threat up front. 

That meant that we didn’t lose the third game on the run having taken the lead. 

Andy: I think that for me the substitutions were an indication of the intent from the managers. I think I put this in the text message to you, our kid, that Leicester, having drawn level, they made a substitution to go and win the game. 

They took a forward off and put another forward on. And we made a substitution to retain the point that we still had. I think Dyche had settled for the draw, and Leicester made a change to try and win it. 

He didn’t win it. But I thought their change was of a more positive nature than the changes that Dyche made. But I suppose in reality, you’re on the road, you take a point just about anywhere and everywhere. 

But that game was definitely winnable. So the changes he made for me were disappointing. But I haven’t read any or heard his post -match comments, but I’m assuming he was delighted to get the point and thought it was a decent shift. 

And it was a decent shift by the players, because you’ve got to take into account the conditions. But for me, as I just said, it was a game that was winnable, and we didn’t. I think the manager chose to settle for the draw. 

To some degree, it was a little bit fortunate. It didn’t bite us in the backside. 

George: What happens to a team that’s, you know, playing all right, they’re one mill up and you take off their most potent threat. Unless Ndiaye is knackered, don’t take him off the pitch. Not only is he the best controller of a ball in that team, along with McNeil, if you bang it up to him, he’s going to keep it, even though he’s quite slight physically. 

George: He’s also got pace, which always frightens everybody. And you take him off. And if I was playing in the team and you took him off, you’d kind of go, oh, oh, poo. That reduces our chances of, you know, the goal scorer off, for God’s sake. 

I mean, you go back to the Lost the Words department. I don’t understand it. And I don’t think it’s a good idea. I was just grateful he didn’t bring Beto one. 

Paul: George, I’m really interested in what you say, because I listened to a lengthy interview by Sean Dyche on the week from quite some time ago now, I think from when he just joined around about the time when he just joined Everton. 

It was with Jake Humphries, the BBC presenter, and it was on whatever their podcast is called, I can’t remember what their podcast, High Performance. And, you know, Dyche makes a big play about psychology, you know, the psychology of playing and how as a manager being an interventionist can be, you know, one of the things that adds to the sum of the parts, so adds to the quality of the team, the quality of the players, adds to the tactical and strategic aspect of the game, so that you start a game, you know, with a particular plan in mind, and then perhaps the game doesn’t quite go in a way that you think it is going or thought it might go, or perhaps the game has gone better than you thought it might have, and therefore you want to protect what you’ve got, and you make those changes. 

And sometimes those changes aren’t obvious to, you know, people who watch and have watched football for 40 or 50 years because, you know, he’s the subject matter expert at the end of the day. He sees things that none of us can possibly see. 

So, and, you know, this is in almost any interview of this nature with Sean Dyche. This is characteristic of how he portrays himself as, you know, almost like a deep thinker in terms of how he goes about a game, not only in terms of how he chooses a team, how he sets up a team, but then how he chooses how to play as the game develops. 

And I just don’t see any of that at all. I think we’re a better team at this moment in time when the players decide to do what they want to do as opposed to what he wants them to do. And I think that’s demonstrated not only in terms of the performance but increasingly in terms of Dyche’s attitude on the sidelines, where you can see he’s getting increasingly frustrated because we’re doing things which perhaps he doesn’t want us to do or doesn’t want the players to do. 

And then he ends up making substitutions and not saying on the basis of how or what the players have done, but on the basis of trying to get back to whatever he considers the game plan to be. And I think his game plans, as we said last week, are very one -dimensional. 

You know, if you happen to get in front, then you do everything you can do to keep what you’ve got. If you happen to be drawing, you still do everything you can do to keep what you’ve got. And it’s all predicated on the basis of, if you go through, I think, I think anyway, and people can shoot me down, I don’t mind on this, that Dyche starts the season. 

He starts every game on the basis that if you get one point a game, you’re not going to get relegated. And that broadly speaking is true. And then if you look at his career history, as we talked about previously, 1.1 points per game over 300 odd games. 

So that’s what eight seasons in the Premier League, eight, nearly eight complete seasons in the Premier League, then he’s proven right. But does that get the best out of the players? Does that allow you to achieve all that you’re capable of achieving? 

I don’t think it does. And I don’t think it does by any, even by any close margin. I think if that’s the limit of Dyche’s ambitions, it shows him up both tactically, it shows him up in terms of his ambition. 

And it shows him up as not being able to extract the very best out of the players. In fact, the reverse, it actually shows him up as only getting a lesser amount out of the players than actually the players themselves are capable of. 

And I think that’s a huge, huge problem for our football club. 

Andy: it’s almost a suppression of talent, isn’t it? If he’s not allowing them to express themselves on the field to the extent that he must be aware that they’re capable of from training, he’s setting them up for 

Paul: Not to achieve what they can possibly achieve. 

Andy: It’s a safety first thing, like you say, if he’s looking at the season as 40 games, or 38 games, a point against 38 points and we’re not going to get relegated. Well, yeah, it’s acceptable, but not for Everton Football Club. 

It’s certainly not acceptable to our foundation, absolutely. 

George: I’m going to disagree with both of you and I’m going to defend him to the point that he took Burnley into Europe and we’d be a bit chuffed if somebody did that with us. And that he’s been hired because of that ability to defend a position in the Premier League. 

He’s not been hired to play flowing football. He’s been hired to steady an incredibly rocky ship, which has been rocking because the people on the top deck are out of their tits on something or other, power or money or something. 

But the place is in chaos. So if he is being a pragmatist, I’m kind of grateful to him at the moment. I totally agree with you that this is not what we say Everton Football Club fans want. Of course that’s true. 

But whether it’s what Everton Football Club fans need right now, I think is probably nearer. I wouldn’t, you know, if you said, can I have your vote on whether we should replace him? I would want to see your list of choices and then I might vote to replace him. 

But just at the moment, I don’t think he’s doing things on purpose. 

Paul: Hmm 

Andy: I think to replace him right now would be incredibly difficult basically on the grounds of who on earth could they attract. Never mind the potential pound sign and number of noughts that are going to be on the salary check, but who seriously could have a football club attract to take on the role in the event that they disposed of Sean Dyche and Stone and Woan. 

I think that’s keeping him in a job at the moment, if I wanted a better turn of phrase. 

George: You don’t do it, Andy, I’m just, you know, I’m in. 

Andy: No, I know what you’re saying about the fact that he was brought into steady the ship and 

George: He’s not a flowing football manager, you know, we all thought that was what Lampard was going to be, or Marco Silva, or Ron Kolman. And they’ve just taken us down to a position where we’ve gone for Christ’s sake, get somebody deeply practical, you can sort this out. 

And he’s at a very bad start to the season. And he would have every right to say to us three, do you want a list of all the people I haven’t got? Because they’re poorly? Well, even Andrew. Yeah. 

Andy: But that only cuts so much ice, I could, because as you said it before, despite the fact that he played to the best of his ability in a position he’s not accustomed to, James Garner played it right back ahead of someone who’s much more accustomed to playing there, even though he’s less experienced. 

The obvious thing to do is play the players to their strengths, and Garner is obviously not a right back, he’s clearly a midfielder. 

George: Couldn’t agree more. I mean, you know, I said to you in a text, as soon as the teams are announced, explain that to me. I got a right back specialist who’s rapid, rapid, therefore feared, because if he gets on the afterburners, you quit that boy. 

Yeah. You know, how much speed have we got in the team? Not a lot. So I’m no idea, you know, but you don’t like Patterson, you don’t fancy Dixon. We haven’t got a left back replacement from Mykolenko, because there’s only three people in the club who kicked the ball with their left foot, and one of them was injured yesterday. 

Andy: I don’t even think it’s the fact that he doesn’t fancy Dixon. I think he’s wary of putting too much trust in youth. Yes, it could be that. And the same goes with O ‘Brien and Michael Keane. 

George: Well, yeah, I agree. 

Andy: with that too Andy? You know because Michael Keene, I don’t like having a pop at him but you know he’s clearly not not the answer long term alongside Tarkowski and he certainly isn’t a long -term answer assuming we’re able to retain the services of Branthwaite beyond this season or even beyond the January window. 

Andy: The future clearly has to be O ‘Brien with Branthwaite or if Branthwaite reluctantly is sold then O’Brien alongside Tarkowski but he keeps playing Michael Keene because he knows Michael Keene, he’s obviously got trust in Michael Keene whereas everybody else is screaming for him to drop Michael Keene and play O ‘Brien who hasn’t put no unfortunately does have an error in him well far too regularly for any centre after a while. 

So there’s the right back and a centre back position that to be honest I don’t think he’s making the wrong selection. 

George: I agree with that Andy. 

Paul: I’m going to cut across you very rudely. Every single comment that this guy makes about the team in general and then specifically about players, think about what he must consider to be the primary qualities that he’s looking for. 

And he never taught, or rather, he very rarely talks about the individual skill of the player. He very rarely talks about having pace, having great technical ability, having the ability to get up and down the line, having the ability to cover space in midfield, having the ability to enter the box late, having the ability to score, except perhaps from… 

In fact, the only time he ever talks tactically is when he talks about what he considers to be, from his perspective, the most productive elements of the game, which is a dead ball situation. He only ever really talks about how much experience a player has in the Premier League. 

And he talks about that from a recruitment perspective, and he talks about it certainly from a value perspective in terms of how much he values this player’s contribution to the team. Just go back and think about the interviews that he does, listen to the future interviews that he does, and that will be the one element of any conversation about any player or group of players or indeed the whole team that he focuses on. 

And, you know, he sets his stall out on that basis. Now, I happen to think he’s wrong to do that. He happens to think he’s right. And as it stands, the Everton board, such as it is, accepts that. The director of football accepts that. 

And that’s the philosophy by which we play football. So it’s not necessarily what is the most balanced team that we can get out there? What is the most skillful team we can get out there? What is the fastest team that we can get out there? 

What is the team that represents the greatest threat to the opposition? It is, one, what’s the most experienced team that we can get out there? Because that obviously to him is the key criteria. And two, defensively, you know, what is the team that we can put out? 

And possibly three, what is the team that we can put out whereby if we, in a dead ball situation, we may look dangerous. And I think that, you know, if you wanted to, and this is me speaking and, you know, he’s right when he says, you know, football fans really know nothing about the game. 

What do I know about the game? Nothing. That to me encapsulates him as a manager. And that’s what we’ve got until we no longer have him as a manager. So in a sense, I’m wasting my time talking about it in these terms. 

And I guess what I’m trying to do both for my own purposes and for the purposes of the people that listen to us is try and rationalize the situation because it seems like a wholly irrational way of going about things at this moment in time. 

Is anybody seriously saying that this squad that we’ve got even albeit, you know, with its limitations in terms of numbers is, you know, the 19th or 20th worst squad in the Premier League. You look at all the key statistics about the game, you know, chances made, conversion of chances, number of successful passes made, number of tackles made, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 

All the modern criteria upon which football is judged. And we’re in the bottom three or four, not just a few individuals who may be weak members of the team, but almost everybody and the team collectively is definitely down there. 

And yes, the players themselves could do more. They could do better, perhaps. But I think it comes back to the manager. And I think another element of it beyond the tactics and the substitutions that he makes is why does he make the substitutions? 

Well, One is perhaps for the reasons that I just described that, you know, we get into a position where he wants just to protect what we’ve got, whatever that might be, a lead or just a draw, but the other element is clearly fitness. 

And fitness is both an absolute but also a relative thing. You can be absolutely fit based on whatever criteria the sports scientists create for individual players. But actually, what is most important on the pitch is your relative fitness. 

How fit are you relative to your opposition? 

George: Mmhmm. 

Paul: So I could be absolutely working at my maximum levels for 80% of the game and I can tick that box and when I come off the pitch the sports scientists can say you did you run as far as you we know you can run you run as fast as we know you could run and the lactic acid levels in your muscles are no greater than it would be normally so you’re not cramping up you know whatever whatever whatever but all of that is complete nonsense if the opposition can run faster run longer leap higher and be less tired than you are accelerate more than you are it’s a bit like you know if I’m a 100 meter sprinter and I do a personal best at the Olympics it really makes no difference if my personal best makes me eight out of ten we’ve competed in a race because I don’t get to the final I don’t win a medal and and and sorry I mean um if nobody else likes listening to this this is like hugely cathartic to me and that’s that’s what I feel about this I shouldn’t say this football club our football club I say this football club because it doesn’t represent a football club that I think we should be and and why is that the case well obviously leadership which I wrote about today the far had mashiri and it is unfair on Sean Dyche to have to carry that role of representing the club of um not only representing the club but actually uh creating the identity of the club because currently he that’s what he does that is really unfair because I don’t think he I don’t think he’s qualified to do that um but nevertheless that’s a position that he’s in and we can only talk about and we should only talk about the reality of situations there’s no point in wishful thinking we we have what we’ve got and we are what we are and we need to be honest about all gone wrong ball 

Andy: Yeah. 

George: back to Sean Dyche’s interference thing. 

Paul: I think he’s trying to jam the signal. We should be honest and we should just, why don’t you guys speak and I’ll come back when my internet is okay? Why don’t you guys carry on talking? No, it’s either the Russians or John Textor or… 

George: I think it’s Sean Dyche, but anyway. It’s Dyche. 

Andy: States in the shooting. 

Paul: I think I’m going to call this an Ashley Young connection. It’s slower than everybody else. 

Andy: Anyway, where was it? 

George: That’s the same day. It was class, man. 

Paul: Yeah, let’s talk about something positive. And yeah, I thought I thought the goal that we scored, and I’ll edit all of this later. But I thought that the goal that we scored was one actually one of the best goals we scored in a long, long time. 

And one because of the absolute precision pass by Ashley Young. But most importantly, the fact that we had, you know, a young man who came in from right from the wing into the centre of the pitch and he timed his run perfectly, collected the ball, controlled it, went past two defenders and slotted it in. 

Just a fantastic goal. And it demonstrates the technical abilities that he has, but it also demonstrates that for all of his faults, Ashley Young can still spot a pass. 

Andy: Well, fully enough, before that, there was the attack that went down the left flank, which was young and McNeil in combination, and then undy with the cross to the back post for Lindstrom, that on another day, Lindstrom would probably have hit the target nine times out of ten, but it was probably a bit of an uncomfortable height for him, but the actual move that led to the cross was really good play between young and McNeil. 

I mean, we’ve been highly critical of Ashley Young, and on many occasions he’s been worthy of all that criticism, but he did okay on Tuesday when he replaced Mykolenko, the left back, and he did okay yesterday. 

And as you said, you know, a pass to undy for the first goal, or for the Everton goal, was a peach of a ball. So, you know, we have to hold our hands up and give him credit for that. And I thought he played relatively well yesterday, unless they obviously chose, and from their perspective quite rightly, to concentrate on getting it right back, because they obviously felt sooner or later, they would find a chink in Ghana’s armour, 

and I guess ultimately they did. But, you know, as you said, you know, great play by undy, and he took it well, and I think you said it before, he’s not the biggest physically, but he’s not afraid to get stuck in, and he’s got quick feet, and he’s clearly got a quick mind as well. 

He seems to make his mind up very quickly as to what he’s going to do when he gets the ball, whether he’s going to face a move or whether he’s going to take a defender on and use his pace to good effect. 

He seems to think quickly, and that’s something that we’ve been crying out for for a long time. 

George: What I like best about him is that when he gets it, his first, if you, well, I have watched this, his first thought is, where’s DCL? 

Andy: Yeah. 

George: and I think DCL is beginning to click, do not substitute him unless he goes, I am knackered and pick him every time, please. This has been the end of the day show. 

Andy: Well, he’s certainly a breath of fresh air, and we’ve needed that, certainly from an attacking perspective, for a while. You know, someone who’s not afraid to take on a defender and entrusting himself with his pace and his skill. 

He doesn’t appear to be a player who’s going to allow his game to be stifled. And I suppose that is a backhanded digger at the manager. And that strikes me as someone who wants to go out there and play at pace and play quickly and play offensively and involve other people in his game. 

And it’s good to see. 

Paul: 100% Andy. Yeah, I agree with that, Andy. I think also, and obviously there’s a danger of playing somebody up too quickly, but there’s almost, and you know, how desperately do we need this? There’s almost an element of the, like Richarlison effect with this kid, that he has an identity, which is slightly separate from the team. 

He really works really hard, technically very gifted, and he seems to have built a relationship very, very quickly with the fans. 

George: I’m not surprised. Yeah, I’m not surprised. 

Andy: Without pouring any cold water and what you’ve just said, the fans are crying out for a hero. They’re crying out for someone that they can hang the hat on. And like you said, previously it was Michelle, to a certain degree it’s been DCL in the last few years. 

But we all, I mean football fans, any persuasion crave the type of player. The type of player whose shirt you want to wear. You know, and right now I would venture that replica shirts with Undani on the back are flying out of the Goodison shop quicker than anybody else at the moment in time. 

And I think that’s what all football fans want. We all want a player that we can latch onto and really take to our hearts. And if we could have 11 of them, as we’ve had in the past, that would be great. 

But right now, one will do, so we can find a second and a third. 

George: The data is on the off-field chaos, please Paul. 

Paul: uh gosh how long how long have you got 

George: Yeah, it’s your tape machine, not mine. 

Paul: Yeah, for those older listeners, I can see my C90 tape running out already. 

Andy: over there. Just give us the edited low lights then. 

Paul: Okay, so I think since we last spoke, obviously, we had John Textor talking about the prospects of buying Everton football club. He talked about what he was prepared to do in terms of selling Crystal Palace, what he was prepared to do in terms of listing his company that holds all of his football club holdings on the New York Stock Exchange. 

He happened to mention that in France, and I think we talked about it last week, actually, he was not really supposed to have done that. And he’s since, you know, come back on that quite a bit, partly because of regulatory pressure, but also because I don’t think there was a huge amount of what’s the word I prefer to use reality about the situation, such as it was, and such as he described it. 

So the person that fired Moshiri and the person that Colin Chong said wasn’t as close as he was expressing, but is probably still the closest. And it’s not at all very close at all to too many two at all there. 

Not not at all. Close to 

George: Not at all, at all. 

Paul: I’m going to blame it on the internet, he is not at all close to buying Everton Football Club. And if he’s not close to buying Everton Football Club, then currently nobody else is. The Friedkins are reportedly waiting in the wings. 

And I think that’s a good sign if they are. But I think it also has to be acknowledged that they have difficulties over in Roma, where they’ve fired their manager, where the CEO has resigned with immediate effect. 

And so it’s not all going swimmingly well for the Friedkins over in Italy. I think Roma is a difficult club to manage, probably at least as difficult as Everton are, probably more difficult because I think they have an even more demanding fan base. 

And Italian football, by its nature, tends to be slightly more volatile. But they’re not having a great time with it. As I say, I don’t think John takes that, no matter how willing he is and how much he wants to do this is any closer to achieving what he needs to achieve, selling Crystal Palace, providing funding, demonstrating where the funding is coming from, et cetera, to buy Everton. 

And as I indicated in the article, I wrote earlier today, we just have a complete vacuum at the top of the club. We have no leadership, we have no direction. We have Farhad Moshiri, who’s not prepared to talk about the difficulties the club faces. 

And that leaves people who effectively are just employees of the club. And I mean that with the greatest of respect, I don’t mean it disparagingly at all, having to talk up the prospects of the club. 

And I think that’s grossly unfair on them. And I think possibly more importantly, it’s grossly unfair on many of the fans. 

George: Paul, can I ask a question? What possible effect could it have on? I’m reading that Osmanoff is taking Moshiri to court. If Usmanov wins, what possible effect can that have on Everton Football Club? 

Paul: So, there’s a court case that has now concluded in Moscow in the Court of Arbitration. You only ever go to a court of arbitration when there’s a dispute that can’t be settled between the two parties. 

So George, if I decide to disagree with you about something, then there’s no way that either you or I are going to accept either your position or you are going to accept my position. We ask somebody else to come in and intervene and to put in place a solution that is binding upon both of us, and that’s effectively what arbitration is, and that’s effectively what the Moscow Court of Arbitration would do. 

So, there is a dispute between a company that’s owned by Farhad Moshiri, a company based in Cyprus, which may or may not be related to Everson, nobody’s too sure on that, and Alisher Usmanov. And that dispute hasn’t been resolved, therefore they’ve gone to a court of arbitration. 

That hearing has taken place, but nobody yet knows what that decision is. It shouldn’t, in the long term, affect what happens between Farhad Moshiri, Everton, and whoever the future buyer of Everton is. 

But because there’s that uncertainty combined with all of the other uncertainties, it just adds to the natural caution that either a buyer or the advisers of the buyer or the bankers of the buyer, which is possibly the most important element of this, would have in signing off a deal. 

George: So the chaos continues, basically. 

Paul: So the chaos continues. 

Andy: Yeah. 

Paul: And because Moshiri is not in a position to, I don’t think he’s in a position to acknowledge all the difficulties of the club, I ask him to do so. 

George: I mean, you think he’s in denial. 

Paul: I think he’s in denial. I think, you know, if he was to be totally honest and I express all the difficulties that the club is in, you know, he is basically admitting the faults of his ways for the last eight and a half years now. 

So I don’t think that’s ever going to happen. It also obviously gives credence to whatever dispute Alisher Usmanov may have with Fahad Moshiri. So if Moshiri is to acknowledge publicly, you know, the problems, the errors of his ways with Everton, I don’t think that helps Moshiri in whatever the dispute is with the two, sorry. 

So that’s never going to happen or it’s not going to happen any time soon. But it also means that there’s an element of denial in terms of who Moshiri is talking to and who the possible buyers of Everton Football Club are because, and I say this with the greatest respect to John Textor, I don’t think it’s possible for anybody to buy Everton Football Club without many of the issues that surround the club being resolved. 

And for them to be resolved, they need Farhad Moshiri to acknowledge the reality of the situation. And they need Farhad Moshiri to, if indeed it does involve Alisher Usmanov, to come to some sort of agreeable conclusion with Alisher Usmanov in order to create the situation where the club can be solved. 

Without that, we’re just going to drift and we’re going to 

George: But that would be to presume that Everton Football Club was higher on his list of priorities than I think it probably is. 

Paul: Well, yes, yeah. And to be honest, I’m not, I’ve not even really thought about where everything sits on his priorities, just looking at it purely from an Everton perspective. We can’t move until that is resolved until the issues surrounding Moshiri are resolved.

And then we get into all of the other issues, which, you know, we’ve talked about for months and months, years now, in terms of what the situation is, what the creditors, what the situation is with 777/A-CAP, etc. 

And until all of those issues are resolved, I can’t see how anybody sensibly can come in and buy the club. And in the case of John Textor, particularly when he faces his own issues with regards to selling Crystal Palace, and he might argue that there are no issues regarding Crystal Palace, but I would counter that with saying, as I said in today’s article, there are eight Premier League football clubs currently, knowingly for sale, either for sale in totality or for sale in terms of a very large shareholding within those clubs. And of those eight, and price has an impact obviously, but of those eight, where does Everton rank amongst those eight? 

And if we’re not the most attractive proposition of the eight, then how likely are we to be sold before any of the other eight are sold? And some of those, some of those other eight have been on the market for quite a long time, as have we 

George: I knew it shouldn’t have asked, I was happier talking about the end day. It’s tractable. 

Paul: But in a sense, George, I totally appreciate what you’re saying and I get that, but I think we also, collectively, I’m not asking people to just follow my line of thoughts, I’m asking people to do their own analysis and reach their own conclusions. 

And I don’t think if you do the analysis, you can reach a conclusion that is much different from mine. Obviously, I would say that. And if you can find a different conclusion, then some people have got to come out and say that. 

But also, the representative bodies of the Everton fan base have got to come out and say that. And that includes, and I’m not going to win much favour by saying this, that includes the Shareholders Association. 

Yeah, sorry. Yeah, I realise it says the shareholders association. And that includes also the fan advisory board, the people who have been elected by the fan base to represent the club represent the fans to the directors of the football club. 

And we need to be a part of this. Everything for there’s no doubt at all, in my mind, that Everton Football Club is a hugely precious asset and a hugely precious part of most Evertonians’ lives. We wouldn’t be as dedicated as we are. 

And there are many much more dedicated than me in terms of following the club that we wouldn’t have 3,000 people going to every single game away from home. We wouldn’t have 40,000 people turning up at Goodison every week if Everton wasn’t important. 

But that importance, if we want Everton to remain a Premier League club to become competitive in the future, even when we move to Bramley-Moore, if we want Everton to be better than what Everton is now. 

Frankly, we as a fan base have got to start standing up and actually challenging Farhad Moshiri, challenging the board and actually challenging the people who say they want to buy the football club because we’ve been through all that. 

We’ve been through, including Farhad Moshiri. People who say they either want to buy the football club or have bought the club from Moshiri. But then people who say they want to buy the football club and then they’ve been proven to be not the right people incapable of buying it. 

And I don’t think we can trust any more the people who are charged with the responsibility of buying or selling the football club. And I don’t think we should just necessarily accept the trust of those that are offering to buy the club either. 

I think we need to be, as a fan base, and it doesn’t really matter whether I’m involved or not, but as a fan base, we have to be more aggressive and we have to be more involved and more active and more proactive in the role that we play in this. 

Because otherwise, with Farhad Moshiri in charge, as long as there’s enough money in the till to pay the wages at the end of the week, this is just going to drift and drift and drift. And our competitive position, which ultimately is the most important thing, our competitive position in the Premier League as a football club, is just going to continue to decline. 

And that’s where I think we are. 

Andy: Mm -hmm. 

George: I wish you were talking chat, but I don’t think you are. 

Paul: Well, I would love to be talking absolute nonsense and to be. 

George: Yeah, yeah, I understand that Paul. 

Paul: You know, Dr. Gloom, Mr. Gloom, whatever you want to call it. Maybe I am. 

Andy: Well, it’s difficult to see how this is ultimately going to be resolved, isn’t it? 

George: Hmm, I’ll say. 

Andy: There is no clear path. Anywhere in sight. It strikes me as it’s just going to continue to rumble on until the money runs out, until whatever money there is within the club that’s keeping the club operating, dries it up and then there’s going to have to be some serious decisions made by somebody but quite by whom and when. 

I haven’t got a clue. 

Paul: Well, when that happens, the decision is taken out of the hands of Farhad Moshiri because the club goes into administration, as you know, I’ve talked about for a long, long time. Moshiri could effectively stop that process by saying, look, I’ve got my views as to what the club’s worth, I’ve got my views as to who the appropriate owner should be. 

But I acknowledge, based on the recent past, perhaps my views aren’t consistent with those of the marketplace. Therefore, I’m actually giving somebody else a responsibility to sell the club on my behalf. 

Andy: So you suggest, sorry, let me just make sure, and it’s right, are you suggesting that Moshiri could put the club into administration? 

Paul: No, what I’m saying is that he could basically give the responsibility to a group of professional advisors, he could give the responsibility to a recognized, acknowledged professional bank, who have bought and sold hundreds of companies on behalf of their clients for many, many years. 

And there are people out there that could do that. And he just says, I want you to get the best possible deal for Everton Football Club. And if it’s a good deal for me, great. I want you to look after the, you know, provide a list of the things that you want. 

It’s over to you. I don’t see any other way doing it. We don’t have a board that’s strong enough, you know, the board is effectively Farhad Moshiri. Yeah, Farhad Moshiri has proven himself incapable of managing the sales process because if he was capable of managing the sales process, we would now have been sold 

Andy: Well, it would have been concluded by now, yeah. 

Paul: Exactly. Yeah. So what are the options? Well, the options are that we, you know, continue to drift either until we’re relegated or until we go into administration. Or Farhad Moshiri puts his hand up and says, look, for whatever reason, I am not really in a position to affect the sale of this football club in the way that we all want. 

Therefore, I’m handing over that responsibility to an investment bank. And it could be somebody like Raine who has affected the sale of many other clubs, or it could be, you know, other professional organizations. 

But I think I think that’s where we’ve got it. And I think it’s down to Moshiri now to explain why he is the I know he’s I know legally he is the owner of the football club. But I think it’s down and if there’s one thing that needs to come out of this podcast, it is Moshiri has to come to the table and explain why he’s the right person to choose and to execute the set, choose the own the future owner and to execute the sale of the club to that future owner. 

George: He can’t do that, Paul. He’s already proved four times that he can’t do that. 

Paul: I agree with you 100% George, and if you can’t, then you have to give that responsibility to somebody else. And I can’t think reasonably why any Evertonian would object to asking those questions. 

George: No, me neither. 

Paul: And if we all ask those questions, and if the media asked all, asked those questions, and indeed the Premier League asked those questions of the Football Club, and particularly of Farhad Moshirii, then either he would do something which meant that there was a more favourable outcome, or he would have the responsibility to somebody else who was then charged with that responsibility, and then went away and did a professional job. 

And not only looked after all the stakeholders involved with Everton Football Club, but gave us a future that we can all look forward to. And I really think we’ve got to that point. I’m trying desperately hard not to be the boy that cried wolf. 

And there’s an element of that because I’ve said these things before, but I’m saying these things more forcibly today than I’ve ever said them before. And I think we’ve got to that point where it needs people to stand up and to say, this is the reality of the situation. 

In the absence of anybody else coming up with a better idea, a better solution, a better individual to take on board this responsibility, this is what we have to do. 

George: Totally agree. Onwards. 

Paul: I can’t have more than that. Thank you. 

George: Don’t Paul. I think you’re right. 

Andy: Yeah, I have nothing else to add to that. 

George: Where will John Textor sit next week when both his teams play? Well, who gives a shit? Sorry. 

Paul: But he’s only got one team. 

Andy: Yeah, yeah. 

George: Thank you. 

Andy: What if it were in attendance? 

George: Well, I bet it’s more likely he’s in attendance than our chairman. Well, I wonder if he… 

Andy: I wonder if he’ll be wearing a half and half scarf. 

Paul: You know, Andy, it could be the first Premier League fixture in history where neither of the owners attend. 

Andy: Yeah, allegedly they’re talking to one another, but they don’t want to be seen together. 

Paul: Yeah, there we go. 

George: Yeah, very well. Thank you, Dan. 

Paul: Don’t think there’s anything more that we’ve got to talk about this week, so… 

Andy: No. 

Paul: Let’s leave it there. On the bright side we scored a great goal. We are off the mark in terms of number of points and we’ve got a number of fixtures coming up that should indicate that we’re going to pick up some points in the short term. 

But at the end of the day we’ve really got to address the fundamental issues and they are the ownership of the club and they are the management of the club. 

Andy: Yes, that’s a big thing now, but on the field it’s one game at a time. It really is an old adage, one game at a time. Do what we have to do against Palace and then move on. Don’t even think about anything else, just concentrate on getting three points against Palace. 

George: Yes. 

Paul: Totally agree. Okay. Thank you, gents. Thank you to everybody for listening. Thanks for the feedback. And can I just mention just as we finish, so it was really interesting that the and I hope to get to the point where we talked about this but the conversation would be too long if we did. 

Kevin Thelwell spoke to Julia Bould on Radio Merseyside. Right. In an interview that I didn’t think was particularly not a criticism of Gulia Bould but I didn’t think it was. I don’t think it offered very much but afterwards Radio Mersey said that they would provide a transcript of the interview for those that had difficulty hearing. 

Right. I just thought I wondered if that came from the fact that we offered a transcript and have offered a transcript for several months. Doesn’t matter if it did or not. But it’s great to hear that other organisations are doing such things and yeah, just mention that. 

George: Yeah. Yeah. Be proud. Quite right. 

Andy: Yeah. Good. Well, where TTB leads, the BBC follows. 

Paul: Well I’m just gonna go away and see what mess, having seen all the mess of the internet created earlier in the discussion, what the transcript makes of that and see where we go from there. But anyway, there we go. 

Andy: Good one, bro. It’s going to be big pauses, never mind. 

Paul: George, Andy, thank you so much. Always a pleasure. Always a pleasure regardless of what’s happening in the Football Club. And to people listening, thank you, people who support us and pass positive feedback back. 

Thank you very much. And yeah, we’ll speak to you soon. Take care. Cheers.