Paul: Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, depending upon where in the world you are and what time of the day you’re listening to this episode, a rare Sunday episode now for Talking The Blues. 

This episode of Talking The Blues podcast with George and Andy Costigan. George and Andy, how are you both?

George:  Pretty good, pretty good. 

Andy: Yeah, Can’t grumble. 

Paul: Good. 

Andy: No point, nobody cares anyway. 

George: I care. 

Andy: I know you do. I know you do, bro. 

Paul: I’m sure there’s one or two of our listeners that care as well, aren’t they? 

Andy: I hope so, wouldn’t you? 

Paul: Um, I’m sure, I’m sure even Sean Dyche cares even, you know, when he listens. 

George: Of course he does. How was the match boys, because I was rehearsing with the Am Dram yesterday. I didn’t see any of it. 

Paul: OK, well, just just on the final bit about Sean Dyche may not care so much when he’s listened to the opening music, but 

George: I’m sure he’s got a sense of humor. 

Paul: I know a lot of people who know him who don’t think he has. Oh, right. Okay. But maybe we can get on to a little later. Well, yesterday’s match. 

Andy: I thought it was a game of two halves, really. I mean, obviously, it was a game of two halves, but I thought the first half, I tried to watch yesterday from a neutral perspective. And I found myself thinking after about 10 minutes, in fact, I think I put it in a text to you guys. 

I cannot see this game ending scoreless. Everton came out of the blocks quite quickly and the first five, six, seven, eight minutes absolutely flew by and I think we had three corners and three or four attempts and I thought, oh this looks interesting and then you know that Brentford are good on the break and they’ve got weapons, I mean they’re two leading goal scorers, they’ve scored more goals than Everton have scored all season and you think this cannot end scorers and I actually found the first half from trying to watch it from a neutral perspective rather than through blue coloured classes but it was quite an entertaining spectacle really and then just before half the time we get the penalty incident or the red card incident which I can understand Brentford being somewhat aggrieved at that, 

Andy: I mean it didn’t look good that he caught Pickford but I don’t think there was any intent there, I genuinely don’t think there was any intent from no guard to take Pickford out, he caught him fair enough, he hurt him fair enough but was there intent, I don’t think there was and the reason I’m stressing this is because earlier in the day I’d watched Leicester and Chelsea and there was some ex-certificate tackling in that game, 

There really was, Leicester for my money were very lucky not to be down to nine men before half time, there was a tackle on Palmer, there was no attempt to go for the ball and it went right down his achilles on his right leg when the ball was on his left foot and when you see it from behind there’s absolutely no way he’s going for the ball, no way he’s going to stop the man and he stops him by going right down his achilles, 

that could have been a really serious injury, thankfully for Palmer’s perspective it wasn’t a serious injury but then there was another one a few minutes later, I can’t remember who it was now and that was equally but I’ll get this, the guy, the Leicester player went in, his foot was a good foot off the deck so it was a high foot, nowhere near the ball straight into the shin of the Chelsea player who did a cartwheel in mid-air before falling in a heap, 

Referee allowed play on before eventually booking the guy but when you see them in slo-mo and VAR judge looked at them both and I’m just staggered that neither of those were red cards and so then when you were coming back to the Everton-Brentford game, when you see the one from Noorgard on Pickford I fully understand why Brentford and particularly Thomas Frank who got booked for his mouthing off at the referee were aggrieved that they got the red card and were down to 10 men so that was the first half, relatively entertaining,

Hang on a minute let me finish this, without a goal and then you think now Everton with a man up, we’ve got the whole of the second half, we’re playing towards the Gwladys Street, you know surely we can find a way to break these down and we failed miserably, the second half as a spectacle was drab, Brentford knew exactly what they were doing, they took the half-time break to really organise themselves at the back to play against an extra man and in all God’s horses we never seriously threatened Brentford through the second half. 

 The second half was a massive anti-climax from my perspective and I was very disappointed that Everton failed to find a way to use the man advantage to break the deadlock and in the end I thought Brentford were fully deserving of the point because they managed their game plan immeasurably better than Everton did. 

George: Did you watch the match, Paul? 

Paul: Yeah. Just quite a few bits to respond to there, Andy. First of all, just on the intent, intent doesn’t form part of the other laws of football. So that doesn’t have to be intent for it to be a file, just purely for that. 

Andy: I’m not saying it wasn’t a foul I’m just saying that like I said in relation to the certainly two of the three well if he tackles in the Leicester Chelsea game then you know to me it was it was it was nothing like as bad as 

George: Can I ask a question before you go on to talk about the match call, because there’s something I don’t understand here. Is it the same VAR team for every game on a Saturday? So what you’re saying is that the ref at the event match got sent to look at the monitor, didn’t he? 

So was he sent by the same people who decided that the tackles you thought were red cards in the Chelsea match? Is that the same VAR referee? No. No, right. 

Andy: As far as I’m aware it’s not because they change the VAR referees every single game. 

George: Oh, okay. Each match has an individual VAR team on it. Yeah. Okay. 

Paul: Yeah. Otherwise, they’d be looking at seven or eight screens, you know, matches at the same time, which, you know, they’re finding it difficult enough to concentrate on one match alone, seven or eight. 

So for what it’s worth, I thought it was not a penalty. Sorry, where am I going with that? And I thought it was sending off and deservedly. So it was a dangerous tackle. And, you know, I think to Pickford’s credit, he made very little of it. 

Andy: Hmm 

Paul: He wasn’t like rolling around all over the place. 

Andy: No, exactly. Exactly. But I mean, don’t get me wrong, it wasn’t a good challenge at all. But like I said, I’m comparing it, rightly or wrongly, to particularly the two tackles in the first half, from Leicester players on Chelsea players that were absolute for my money, they were nailed on red cards, not even up for debate. 

Andy: And you really need to watch them. And I think you’d see my point. I’d be amazed if there’s many people who saw that first half who wouldn’t agree with me. Well, obviously, the Leicester fans wouldn’t agree with me, but I’m not really lack of to my mind, the lack of continuity from 

Paul: Consistency. 

Andy: Consistency. You know, because he got the red card. Okay, fair enough. It wasn’t a good challenge. His foot was high and he caught Pickford and it could have been serious. So yes, in that respect, taking 10 out of it, then a red card was deemed the right punishment. 

But like I said, the two Leicester things were just horrendous for my money. They were far worse, far worse. 

George: You can’t have consistency when human beings are making the decision, they’ve got a truck full of equipment, and it doesn’t matter, it’s the same thing. This is why the whole thing is a bollocks to me. 

It’s still a human being, i.e. a referee who could be five yards away from the incident, as opposed to somebody who’s miles away watching in slow motion, didn’t happen in slow motion. Happened right then and then in front of that boat. 

I know, I know, I didn’t have consistency. So the calls for consistency are a bit lame, really, it’s not humanly possible. 

Andy: But livelihoods and league positions and points are hanging on some of these decisions or non-decisions as the case may be. I mean, if Brentford had lost yesterday, Thomas Frank would have been even more angry than he was at the time that no guard got sent off. 

You know, and I don’t know, maybe I’m being too idealistic about it. You know, at the end of the day, obviously I wanted Everton to win. I wanted Everton to punish the 10 men of Brentford. But having, you know, the losing, you know, the losing a man, but they didn’t. 

And, you know, that’s probably what’s annoying me more than anything else is the fact that, you know, we had 47 minutes with an additional man and couldn’t break them down and never seriously looked like breaking them down. 

That’s the even more worrying thing. You know, Beto had two headers late on. One that flew over the bar and one I think went straight to the keeper, but, you know, he had a shot blocked as well, but overall it was the lack of penetration from everything, the lack of, no ability to break down Brentford. 

And Brentford, like I said, I give them enormous credit. They obviously use the 10, you know, 15 minute half time break to get themselves organized. And they did it supremely well, actually, although supremely might be too strong a word given it would up against a powder puff attack. 

But they cannot make it. As we’ve said many times, you can only beat what’s in front of you. And they only had to deal with the Everton attack. It might have been different if they’d been playing a team with a more potent offensive line, but we haven’t got that at the minute. 

We’re struggling badly in front of goal. And it was highlighted yesterday by the fact that we couldn’t beat 10 men. 

Paul: I mean, I agree with all of that, Andy. You could argue, in fact, that, you know, Brentford were only a very good save from Pickford away from snatching all three points. 

Andy: and yeah all the way through I kept thinking you know they’ve got genuine pace in their forward line and I’m thinking one long ball over the top and we could be in real real trouble here you know I mean and then when I mean when the substitutions came I think it was with about 20 minutes to play and Frank put a forward on I’m thinking oh my god he’s already three on the pitch you know and he clearly didn’t he clearly didn’t feel threatened by everything you know you wouldn’t you wouldn’t you know when you’re the man when you’re the man down you know you if you put a forward on you’ve got to be confident that you you’re not going to concede and I don’t think you I don’t think he thought like I don’t think he thought that Brentford were going to concede if if if Everton had played an extra 10 minutes on their own 

Paul: But this is the whole difference in approach, isn’t it, between a manager like a Brentford manager and Frank and Dyche. Can you imagine Dyche going into an away game where the previous five games he’s lost, the first five games of the season, Brentford have lost, all of Brentford’s points this season, before yesterday have come at home. And you can imagine they sort of, the whole ethos, the defensive set up, the language, the expectations from Dyche in those situations would be to grab a point. And that would be, as he says, like the start of a run. 

There’s only one start, one run I want to see with Dyche at the moment. And you know, he has passed his time in the Premier League, the Premier League as a competition that 20 teams in the Premier League, or virtually all play a different style of football these days, the style of football that Dyche brings to the table. 

We are a, not a squad, but we have a team, even the team that we put out yesterday, that should be able to play considerably better and with considerably more ambition than what we did yesterday. And that’s been consistent, you know, that’s been a consistent theme, hasn’t it, throughout this season. 

Okay. I get the point that Dyche is making about the number of goals that we conceded at the beginning of the season. And we needed to address that. And we did. And we have, obviously, I think it’s four goals we’ve only conceded in the last nine games. 

But that’s only half of the game. And in fact, I was fascinated by one of the things that Dyche said about explaining that scoring a goal is the most difficult thing in football. Well, if scoring, I commented on social media about this last night, if scoring a goal is the most difficult thing about football, what you’re telling me, actually, is that defending is not as difficult as scoring a goal. 

So why is it that you take a totally defensive approach? Isn’t that a confession in terms of your own limitations as a manager? And I think this is what we’re seeing with Dyche. Yes, he can set up a team that’s difficult to score against. 

And he will, you know, say one one defeat in eight games justifies the approach. But frankly, it’s an approach that’s no longer competitive with it within the Premier League. And that’s why, you know, the opening music to this was a reference to Jurassic Park. 

And that’s why I believe that Dyche’s tactics, Dyche’s mindset, Dyche’s approach to the game is out of date. It’s past its sell by date. And, you know, you can argue about his career record in the Premier League. 

And I look at that every week. And, you know, it’s now 326 games. He’s still averaging 1.1 points per game, but he’s averaging less than the goal a game. 

Andy: Now. 

Paul:  And as I pointed out, I think in an article about 10 days ago, from the point where Dyche started managing in the Premier League to the point where we are at now, roughly 26% more goals in the Premier League now than there was when he first started managing in the Premier League. 

Yet, actually, if you look at his record, his career record, his career record, the average goals per game is declining at a time when more goals are being scored. And, you know, I think that’s reflected when you look at the number of goals scored in different games. 

And sorry, I’m trying not to be a stato here, but there isn’t a single club. And Palace have exactly the same goal record as us. But there isn’t, other than Palace, a single club that has either scored or conceded less goals in the Premier League so far this season. 

George: Do you think it’s possible that were he part of this conversation, he might go, okay, tell me who to pick clever clogs because I don’t actually have a striker in the club who I can put on the pitch. 

Not somebody who’s a cold killer, not somebody, you know, even like the two Brentford boys who will put the ball in the back of the net. 

Andy: that’s that’s very possibly 

George: Can I just finish something? Sorry. I agree with you about his tactics. He was a centre half and he clearly understands how to defend within this Premier League. But I think he might say to you, go on then, who should I start? 

Andy: Well, my first counter to that would be, it’s an age-old cliche, you take each game as it comes, and you should have been looking at Brentford and thinking, right, for all their gay-abandoned football at home, they are pointless all season on the road. 

George: Yeah, yeah. 

Andy: and we’ve got a home game against a team that’s not picked up a point away from home all season and if I stick with my normal format we’re going to go with DCL up front on his own against two centred hours. 

Andy: Why didn’t we try? I mean for all these shortcomings you know we haven’t seen, well have we seen Beto and DCL start other than when I’m together other than when Beto first arrived. He’s got nothing to lose surely by playing two up front and having a go against a team that hadn’t picked up a point away from home. 

Surely the opportunity there was to change his formation to try and seize control of the game and take the game completely to Brentford. Now we did actually start as I said before we did actually start quite brightly but we couldn’t find a way through and I just think I found myself thinking you know Beto might be an awkward not very pleasing to the eye football at times but he’s got a willing heart and he does make things you know he has made things happen in the past because he’s so bloody unconventional but the only change he made was only having one goalie on the bench as against having two. 

George: I’m. 

Andy: You know, you know, Lindstrom, you’ve said it for weeks, Our kid, Lindstrom is not a Premier League player. 

George: He would, neither him, nor Beto, nor I suspect Harrison would get a game anywhere. No. So, you know, you could make the case that, and I think talking about Dyche is a waste of air really, because, you know, as I understand it, his days are numbered, and he’s definitely not going to be the Friedkin’s pick if and when they arrive, but he could, you know, with some justification go, show me what I should pick. 

George: I agree with you. He could be more adventurous, but that’s not in his nature. And he doesn’t actually have, apart from Ndiaye, anybody that frightens anybody. I don’t think it is an attacking player. Doucoure, please. 

George: It’s just silly. 

Andy: If what you just said then, then he’s given in. If he’s not prepared to chance his arm, you know, if he’s not prepared to have a go, if he’s not prepared to experiment, you know, at some point, then he’s given in. 

George: And he’s just playing it as he sees it, I think. This is what he thinks is the best idea. Nobody, very few people, it seems to me, because I read a fair few bits on social media last night, agree with him. 

George: And I don’t think any of us three do either. But this is what he’s being paid for, to get a point, a game and keep us there before whoever comes in to take over. I think that’s what he looks like. Well, much like a man who knows his time is up, he’s doing his best. 

George: And his best is boring the tits off anyone. 

Andy: It’s destroying, it’s destroying, well to me I think it’s destroying, well I think it’s destroyed any goodwill with the crowd now, because the crowd appeared to me yesterday, particularly second half when we were failing to make any true impression on Brentwood. 

Andy: I got the impression that the crowd would just give us the final whistle so we can go home. 

George: I’m not gonna argue with that. I think the crowd again, you know, I mean 

Andy: And we’ve been on this spiral or this trend of relegation battles now for far too long. We’ve said this till the cows come on, the club and everyone who tries to rev the crowd up have drawn, have gone to the well too many times. 

Andy: And I think now, despite the best efforts of the people who put all the flags out and everything, that looks fantastic prior to kick off and that, I think, you know, 20 minutes into the game when we haven’t really made a serious effort, despite the fact that they were trying. 

Andy: But the second half was terrible and whatever atmosphere there was early on inside Goodison yesterday had evaporated totally and it got to the point where they were glad when the final whistle came so they could go home. 

George: Well, this is the situation we’re in. We’re marking time and I would defend him to the point of only to the point of saying the club has been mismanaged since machinery arrived and he’s been. They’ve gone. 

George: Could you please put your finger in the dyke and he’s done his best. It’s not pretty, it’s not attractive. He’s not a bold man, but you know, I just hope it’s for his sake. I hope he gets out of it with dignity. 

George: I don’t think he’s got any more to offer and he knows. 

Andy: No, I don’t think he’s got any more to offer. 

Paul: It comes back then. And that’s a very noble defense of him, George. And I know you have consistently been a defender of him whilst acknowledging his limitations and, you know, the honourable aspect of his character. 

Paul: I know that’s, you see that as a big positive with regards to him. 

George: He was gone and we weren’t watching his football poll, but yes, go on, sorry. 

Paul: I just think it’s a massively flawed philosophy that you are basically, essentially saying well anything above 17th is a bonus because I think notwithstanding anything, we have a better squad than our results suggest and I think if you went through the Premier League I think you comfortably say, and we’ve talked about this before, maybe you can split the league up into almost like three subdivisions of the league. 

Paul: You’ve got the top six, seven, maybe eight clubs. You’ve got perhaps, let’s call it eight, you’ve got maybe the bottom six clubs and then you’ve got six clubs in the middle. I would argue that we would be and should be comfortably towards the upper end of that middle group of clubs and whilst I agree with Neville Southall that we should always be aiming to become first or to be first because anything less than that shouldn’t be acceptable and for all the reasons that he’s articulated over the years, 

Paul: I would argue that we should be looking to finish even with Sean Dyche’s manager, even with the limitations placed upon his squad, even with the injuries to players who might make a difference anywhere between ninth and twelfth. 

George: Where would we have finished last year without all those point deductions? 11. 

Paul: Yeah, we would have finished that alongside Brentford. So who, you know, everybody says is a good team. I just think that the idea that we essentially tread water until such a time as the new owners come in, until such a time as we move to brand new more at the end of the season is fundamentally flawed, because I don’t believe in any competitive environment, you have the luxury of sort of spare time, excess time. I think you have to be absolutely at it hammering week in, week out to extract the maximum results from every single opportunity. And I can’t say that truthfully of this Everton team, nor of this manager. 

And therefore, as a result, even if he was to come out and say, well, my objective is to win every single game, you then have to look at his tactical limitations, you have to look at his selection limitations, because I still don’t think he’s selecting the right players in the right positions. 

Paul: And you have to look at his in game management, all of which are aspects that other managers use positively to enhance the performance of their squads, and therefore to enhance the performance in terms of points of their team. 

Paul: I would argue that almost all of those factors are a negative contributory factor, where the ultimate end result of Dyche’s teams and Dyche’s performance, and therefore the number of points that we achieve is less than the sum of the parts. 

George: I can’t imagine anybody disagreeing with that, it’s clear that, you know, we haven’t scored in four games for goodness sake. 

Paul: So therefore, what is he doing in our football club? 

George: And he’s waiting to be sacked by somebody who’s got the power to do it. That’s exactly what he’s doing. Nobody’s got the power to do it at Everton because Everton is a completely disorganized rabble without a board that anybody recognises as such, waiting, waiting, waiting, building a stadium and waiting for new people with proper ideas to take over. 

George: And everybody, we’re all treading water. You’re absolutely right that it’s horrible, but that’s what’s going on. 

Paul: We could, I mean, yes, but we could stop that tonight. We’ve got a director of football that is recognized technically as being one of the up and coming directors of football in the game. I think, as time goes on, that view is being stretched somewhat, because there’s no evidence of any, any clear advancement in any aspect of everything, of everything’s footballing operations. 

Paul: And I, you know, I get the limitations, the fact that we’ve got, you know, a non-existent board, a non-existence owner, and we’re short of money. I get all of those limitations. But at the end of the day, Dyche is still not getting the maximum results out of the people that he has available to him. 

Paul: And he’s not doing that because of a number of factors, motivation being one, I think he, you know, I mean, even when he’s talking about, you know, playing and die as a number 10, he says he’s not a number 10, then he ends up playing him as a number 10. 

Paul: He says there’s no evidence that supports his inclusion as a number 10. And then in the same breath, he talks about the defensive aspects of being a number 10 in the modern game. I don’t hear anybody else anywhere in the game talking along those lines. 

Paul: And you’re right, you know, that’s what he’s good at. And that’s what he’s done. And that’s what’s given him a career in the Premier League of well over 300 games. But my point is that without laboring it too much, that approach is dated, it is out of date. 

Paul: And we need to change and we can make that change. And should have made that change before tonight. And it fell well had anything about him and had any desire to be part of the freakins plans going forward, he should be banging their door down, saying, if it’s within your remit to allow me to do so, allow me to bring a new manager in allow me to bring in a new goalkeeping coach, allow me to bring in a coach that looks at set pieces, 

Paul: For example, allow me not just to look at the defensive aspect of the game, allow me to consider why all of our attacking options are performing below the historic averages, allow me to do the job, which I’m here to do, which is to enhance the value of all of the resources that I have in front of me, in front of me. 

Paul: And if he was doing that, and if he was saying that to the freakins, and the freakins were that even if they’re not in a position to say, absolutely, you go ahead and do it, they should be in a position where and we talked about this before, whether they’re on the phone to machinery, or even on the phone, to the CEO and saying, but this guy’s absolutely right, we take the takeover is going to happen. 

Paul: And but we can’t rush that because, you know, there’s a proper process that we’re going through. And that will just take as long as it takes probably another three or four weeks max amount. And but in the meantime, we’ve got to start addressing of the difficulty difficulties that we have on the field, because that the longer we take to start addressing those issues, one, the more we fall behind the competition, and two, the less time we have to address those issues once the new owners are in place. And I suppose finally, a third point on that would be that our competitive position and our ability to bring the people in that we want to bring in, worsens as the club’s competitive position worsens. 

Paul: And to me, there’s an absolute urgency to address all of these issues. And the fact that the owner is leaving the fact that we don’t have the board is wholly irrelevant, as far as I’m concerned, we still have football operations, and we still have a director of football. 

Paul: And even if Dyche is unable to address those issues, he should be addressing those issues, not only on behalf of the future owners, but on behalf of all of all of the other stakeholders, who are associated with the football club. 

George: I don’t know what Andy feels about that. I think that’s 1000% correct. I can’t argue with any of that. And the only conclusion you can come to is that the guy’s useless. Or he’s a coward or something. I don’t know. 

George: I’m not interested. Because, you know, the real bottom line is, we’re going to watch this next week, we’re going to watch this until something changes. And if that guy has the power to have changed things and hasn’t, I’ve got nothing to say about him at all. 

George: I mean, he’s got no profile. I don’t know anything about the man. Never heard him speak. Don’t, you know, he doesn’t. I don’t know what to say, Paul. I think you’re absolutely right. But it’s not going to happen, mate. 

George: Not going to happen. And the weird thing is, we’re now going into this run of matches in December. And we could keep four clean sheets. Because that’s what we’re set up to do. I mean, it wouldn’t be very pleasant, although it would be very nice not to lose at Old Trafford. 

George: It’d be very nice not to lose to Liverpool and Goodison. It would be very nice to hold Chelsea. That would all be lovely. And, you know, we could all say a rather fond farewell to Mr. Dyche, even though he’d bored the shite out of us. 

George: I don’t, you know, I’m lost for a response. I’m just sitting here with my fingers crossed waiting for Christmas and the Friedkins, frankly, week in, week out. Yeah. From what I read on social media, you know, one guy on the thread I read said we have been circling the drain for four years. 

George: That’s a really excellent summation of whether our football club is miles from what Southall is talking about and what we all feel, what some of us are old enough to remember. 

Paul: Yeah. But I would, you know, if you just, so people might say, well, you’ve been built on the fair and fair wall, but then if I look at the freakins, and I see that the freakins are not scared to react to the situation in Roma, which is a very volatile situation. 

Paul: And I know you can argue that they’ve made some poor management decisions at Roma, and I think they would probably privately admit to doing that. It’s evident to me that they are not scared of making a decision, whether they make the right one or not, of course, is an entirely different matter. 

Paul: And they must be looking at the fact that they take over isn’t, and I know this from personal experience, that the fact that they take over hasn’t yet happened doesn’t mean that they don’t already feel a sense of ownership of what they’re about to own. 

Paul: You know, if you, if you’re going to buy if you’re, if you decide to buy a house, let’s say it’s a house with vacant possession, because that’s effectively what Everton is at the moment. And, and you know that, for whatever reason, it’s going to take four weeks to go from exchange of contracts to completion. 

Paul: And you drove past one day and you saw a big hole in the roof, and it was pouring down with rain. And the water was getting into the house. Would you say, Oh, well, I can’t fix that for another four weeks, because it won’t be mine for another four weeks? 

Paul: Or would you pick up the phone to the current owner and say, Look, there’s a big hole in the roof there and I notice water is coming in. Don’t expect you to pay for it. But can I send somebody around just to solve the problem until we’re the owners? 

George: I can’t disagree with that either. I don’t want to disagree. I just want this shite to end, because it feels endless. And I know it’s not, because we all know, we all hope that change is coming. But, you know, when you sent me the team sheet at two o’clock my time yesterday, and there’s Lindstrom and Doucoure, and you just go, well, no chance. 

George: No chance of playing. 

Paul: Can I open up another aspect of this? And let’s look at the players collectively and individually for a second. Let me ask a question. Is there any evidence that these guys are playing for their future at Everton Football Club? 

George: What do you mean? 

Paul: Well, I mean, actually, it’s a good question, George. I mean it in two ways. One, in terms of what Everton’s future holds and two, what their future holds and what Everton will be in the future. 

Paul: Because I don’t see it. I don’t see any evidence. I don’t see any enormous intensity when we go out onto the pitch every week. I don’t see the individual players and collectively the players busting a gut so that when five o’clock comes, obviously it’s not always five o’clock, but when five o’clock comes, everybody who leaves the stadium says, well, we might not be very good. I mean, we might have a pretty crap manager who doesn’t know his arse from his elbow in terms of tactics, et cetera. But by God, all of those players are putting the shift in. 

Andy: I think you have to take Pickford out of the firing line. Yeah, I think Pickford certainly is one player who has maintained, if not actually improved his status with Everton Football Club because his performances have been exemplary. 

Andy: His application is better than it’s ever been, his concentration is better than it’s ever been, his willingness to win. The fact that he, to me, he’s getting more and more frustrated with what’s in front of him because they’re not living up to the standard that he’s setting between the posts. 

Andy: The undisputed England number one, he literally could have the pick of any club in the Premier League almost come season end, should he want to move on. He could probably have his pick of an awful lot of the top clubs in Europe as well, should he want to try his hand abroad, but he’s not letting his standards drop at all. 

Andy: He’s maintained and to me he’s improved. To me his concentration is now as good as, well it’s better than it’s ever been. 

Paul: He’s matured. 

Andy: Yeah, yeah, that’s a simple way of putting it, he’s matured, I mean he still gets a bit giddy every now and again, but he’s an individual, he doesn’t want to be a robot. So I think he can certainly take Jordan Pickford out of any criticism of is he playing for his future with Everton Football Club, is he playing for his future with another club, I think he’s playing for his future period, whether it’s with Everton or whether it’s somewhere else. 

Andy: He’s England’s number one, he wants to remain England’s number one and so I think that’s his drive, that’s what’s driving him on, he is the number one, he wants to remain the number one as long as possible. 

Andy: I think he sees his legacy as being arguably England’s greatest goalie. 

George: Thank you. 

Andy: I think that I genuinely think that’s what’s driving Jordan Pickford on at this moment in time. 

Paul: I think, I think you’re right. I don’t know if you’ll ever get the same number of captures Peter Shilton did, but I don’t have the statistics in front of me. 

Andy: Well, clean sheets and penalty saves alone is number one. 

Paul: Well, he’s now he isn’t he equal now clean sheets with Gordon Banks. Yeah, I think they’ve both got some 73 caps. 

Andy: Something daft like that. Like I said, I honestly think whether his long-term future is with Everton, and from all accounts he does enjoy being at Everton Football Club, but he came in under Ronald Koeman and things have steadily gone downhill for the club and the team whilst his star has continued to rise, if you like. 

Andy: I might be wrong, I might be being totally fanciful and idealistic, but to me his modus operandi is I am England’s number one and I’m going to remain England’s number one, being with Everton Football Club and elsewhere, and certainly he’s getting enough work out playing for Everton. 

Paul: I think you’re right. And I think there’s some evidence that he’s prepared to sign an extension to his existing contract, which is, you know, remarkable in a sense. So he obviously believes that there’s better times, you know, just around the corner because it seems ridiculous that a player of his abilities and of his international standing isn’t playing in the Champions League year in, year out. 

Paul: And I think you’re right, he could do that by moving to a Champions League club, be it in England or be it elsewhere. I suppose the other question that you ask is, if you look at the actual squad itself, actually, how many of the players within the squad could actually move to a bigger and better football club? 

Paul: Obviously, Branthwaite. 

George: Very few. 

Andy: because of his youth and promise. 

Paul: Yeah. And his performance level was to be frank. 

Andy: Of the rest yeah you’re probably right you’re probably right none of them leap off the page has been genuine targets for any any of the well should we say arguably the top six 

Paul: Yeah, so, you know, if you buy into the premise that we are, you know, in terms of ranking, and it helps me to say this, but you know, we’re like a mid table like, or should be a mid table ranked club. 

Paul: And there’s very few players that are actually going to get above that. So then the question about motivation becomes, well, why are they not being, if they can’t see a career advancement outside of everything, why are they not doing absolute, absolutely everything that they can do to enhance everything’s performance. 

Paul: And part of that is down to the individual, but also part of that is down to the manager, because, you know, the manager, if he’s managing, and I saw a great thing about Alex Ferguson, in the middle of the week saying that Alex Ferguson was a fantastic manager, but he wasn’t a fantastic coach. 

Paul: He used to leave the coaching to other people, because frankly, he wasn’t very good at it. And then it sounds ridiculous. He wasn’t very good at it. What he was great at was managing people. It was Peter, Peter Schmeichel was talking about it. 

Paul: And it was really, really interesting. He said the senior players, he said, if Alex Ferguson was left to take a coaching session, the senior players used to laugh at him, because it was rubbish. He was a terrible coach. 

Paul: But he was a fantastic manager. And he knew how to get the best out of individuals. And he knew how to react to situations whereby, you know, what was the thing that he had to do if they had a bad result? 

Paul: How would he, how could he prepare them for the next game? And that, you know, that was his particular brilliance. He wasn’t necessarily a brilliant football coach. He was a brilliant man manager, to use that expression. 

Paul: And maybe that’s, well, Everton don’t have a fantastic coach. But no, I don’t think within the organization, nor do they have a fantastic man manager. Or even at home. 

George: Thank you so much. 

Paul: Yeah, which again, you know, seriously, the point comes back to, well, we, I don’t think we can wait. We can afford to wait to make the changes that we need to make. I think we need to make the changes now. 

Paul: And, you know, just a circular argument to go back to where we were 20 minutes ago. 

George: Great. 

Andy: Mm-hmm. 

Paul: Well, it’s it’s so frustrating. Yeah, it’s like me. And, you know, again, in terms of the timing of it and everything else, you know, for it to be, it’s tragic to be happening in our final season at Goodison Park. 

Paul: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I know, George, that was a particular point for you, wasn’t it? A couple of weeks ago, when we were talking about it, the fact that this is all playing out effectively what is, you know, the last night of a very long run. 

Paul: Yeah. In theatre terms. 

George: It’s horrible. I mean, you know, it’s really, you sort of look at what we’re doing now, is trying to find some positives to cling onto until the structure of the club begins to change. I’m not sure what they are. 

George: I can’t, I can’t see them at all. 

Paul: I just can’t see why there isn’t an individual who doesn’t recognize all of these things, who’s currently employed by the club and can’t walk into Finch Farm tomorrow and say, we know all of these things are true. 

Paul: What can we do to change them today? Not what can we do to change them in the middle of December when we’ve already played another three or four games and we’ll probably be much closer to a relegation spot than we are now. 

Paul: What can we do today to change things so that we’ve maximized our chances of finishing as high up in the league as we possibly can? 

George: And you would say number one priority, change the coach, change the coaching staff, change the attitude of that, that you identify as players, not really busting a gut 24 hours, 20, you know, every time they go out and play football. 

Paul: Clear them all out tomorrow. I’ve locked the gates and I’ll send them their personal possessions. 

George: Lock the Gates. Brilliant. Yeah, yeah. No, I can’t disagree. I don’t want to disagree. You know, I missed the match yesterday, but it didn’t sound from, you know, and I go to look at the highlights on YouTube and it goes, yeah, the Everton-Brentford highlights two minutes and 47 seconds. 

George: And you think, well, did I miss anything very much? And then because I live in France, they weren’t available anyway. And in the United, next week, hurrah, we’ll paste them. 

Andy: I admire your optimism, bro, I really do. 

George: This is all I’ve got, mate, a collection of Everton shirts and memories of Colin Harvey. Yeah, you might as well have blind hope they’ll paste them. Fernandez will get sent off again and he’ll finally get, he’ll get sent off because he’ll get a pen, he’ll put it over the bar and then he’ll tell the ref he should have again, the ref will send him off, it’ll be marvellous. 

George: DCL will finally stick the ball in the net three times in one game. 

Andy: Good news, I look forward to it. 

George: Yeah, man. Guaranteed, Sunday. You’re out with your wife and daughter aren’t you. 

Andy: Yeah. 

George: I’ll be texting Andy. 3-1. 4-1. He’s brought Beto on, and Beto’s screwed with me. And then, you know, the Everton board announced that Dyche is staying, because suddenly he’s a master coach. Oh, for God’s sake. 

George: It did, mate. 

Paul: You look at it, you look at United and look at the managers they’ve brought in. 

Andy: Mmm. 

Paul: Young manager, this guy’s got a 70% win rate in his career already. Okay, you can argue about not playing in competitive leagues, this, that and the other. You know, he’s come through the Portuguese system, which technically is as good as anywhere. 

Paul: And I know the people who own the club that he was at previously in Portugal. And they say this guy is, is, is the real deal, you know, that United have got, and I hate to talk about United in this terms, but they’ve got the manager for the future, he is going to be one of the big managers of the future. 

Paul: And, you know, you can argue about how well United have been running under the Glazers, and obviously not very well. And that’s, and that’s good, good news for us. But I think Ineos, who now has control of United, has pulled off an absolute master stroke with this manager. 

Paul: So whether he’s able to put in a performance against us, that demonstrates that or not, who knows, we’ll find out after the games, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there weren’t any radical improvements in the United in the short term. 

Andy: Minutes each and it’s just going into halftime now and it’s one one. 

Paul:Yeah. 

Andy: So his first game isn’t going to be good. 

George: Well, because of what you’ve been talking about for the past three or four podcasts, if not more, what impressed me more about United, I mean, was that they sacked Ten Harg and bought in Van Nisselroy, which is precisely what you’re talking about. 

George: But Everton don’t seem to have that nerve because they could do that. They must have, you know, people who they would trust to perform the role that Van Nisselroy performed. And United got it wrong before because they introduced that German guy, whoever he was. 

George: I can’t remember the professor, whoever. I don’t know. I don’t care anyway. They all rotted out for all I care. But they did do that. You know, they they identified the same problem we’ve got. You’re sinking like a stone and a boring one at that. 

George: And they sacked him and they bought in someone who, to go back to your analogy about Ferguson, understood what Ferguson really taught those players, which is get rid of it quick and get rid of it forward. 

George: Go forward. Score more goals than the opposition. He may not have been a great coach and they may have sneered at him. But, you know, he taught them how simple that game is. Score more than the opposition. 

George: That’s it. Dychees philosophy is the exact opposite. Don’t concede, can’t I hope this new guy falls on his head. Certainly next Sunday. 

Paul: I mean, if you look at his record, again, across the Premier League, he has an enormously negative goal difference across his career. His goal difference, I think, from memory is minus 141. 

Andy: Thank you. 

George: Wow. So. 

George: What was Moyse’s? 

Paul: I don’t know. It’d be an interesting exercise to do for managers to manage more than 300 games in the Premier League. His win rate is 28%. So, throughout his career, he’s only won one in four games. 

George: And what’s his lose rate? 

Paul: uh he’s lost so of 326 he’s lost 146 games so around about 45% so 

Andy: That’s shocking, isn’t it? That’s truly shocking. Shocking that we’ve fallen to such an extent that we’ve put our faith in a man who’s lost nearly half the game she’s managed. 

George: And to be, you know, we were in such a state, Andy, I think you’re absolutely right. But we were in such a state that he did a good job for us, kept us in there. I’m just so tired of this crumbs of, you know, in Liverpool, a 20 point clear of us. 

George: They’ve only played 12 games. 

Andy: Yeah. Scary, isn’t it? 

George: Yeah. 

Paul: We’re not going to leave anybody very cheerful at the end of this. 

George: How can you be? What’s to be cheerful about? Christmas is coming. I don’t, you know, I don’t know. I don’t know what to be cheerful about about Everton. 

Andy: and 

Paul: No, the only thing that you can be cheerful about is the hope that somebody comes in with the same drive and ambition that we, and almost, well, certainly everybody that attends a game week in, week out, has about our beloved football club. 

Paul: Yeah. And be prepared to do the things that are needed to be done in order to make the changes that will bring about first an improvement, because we’re not gonna go from where we are to where we want to be overnight. 

Paul: Well, even if for the rest of the season, we just saw evidence of an improvement. 

Andy: Exactly. We just want to see some gradual improvement. I mean, yes, we’d like it to be a breakneck race, but we’re all realistic and grown up enough to know that it’s not going to happen overnight. 

Andy: But we just need to see something that we can latch on to and give us, you know, rekindle the hope that, you know, our kids banged on about for years that that’s, that’s what drives us on. That’s what keeps us going. 

Paul: And somebody who communicates and says, look, you know, this is a three year project. It’s a four year project. It’s a five year project, whatever it might be. But our aim is to be, you know, within five years in your Champions League contenders, contenders to play in a Champions League, not not Champions League contenders. 

Paul: And this is how we’re going to do it. And lay out, you know, a very simple plan about scouting, about recruitment, about coaching, about player attention, about, you know, the corporate philosophy going forward, what the ambitions of the club are going into a new stadium with new ownership, etc, etc. 

Paul: That’s, that’s what we need. And nothing’s going to change until we do that. But that’s not a reason for not starting to do it today. 

George: Meet us next week after we pounded United Old Trafford. Pissed down, rained, they’re all dripping because the roof leaks because the Glazers won’t spend any money on it. The manager’s driven off the Daily Express and all the red tops are going, jamming everything, score six. 

Paul: Is that six before half time?

George:  Yeah, why not? 

Andy: I’m for now. 

George: And Fernandez gets sent off. And Fernandez gets sent off. Effing and jeffing at the ref because the ball went over the… Oh, forget it. 

Paul: Okay, I had a load of other things I was going to talk about, but I’m not going to talk about today. All technical stuff with regards to the change in Premier League rules, but we can cover that. 

Andy: There is something I’d like to raise and this kind of saddened me a little bit, something I saw on LinkedIn the other day. And it was a thread on LinkedIn, it was actually started by Danny Donache who spent 15 years with him at the football club. 

Andy: And Danny started this thread on LinkedIn. 

George: Is that grand old team Andy. 

Andy: No, no, no. Danny Donache was on the medical staff at Everton. Oh, right. OK, sorry. Danny started this, I’m sure Danny on the grand old team would be flattered if you think that. But no, this is Danny Donache. 

Andy: Anyway, Danny started this thread and he says, something has shifted in the murky world of professional football. People are leaving in droves brackets or being pushed to leave clothes brackets. I rarely speak to anyone who loves their job anymore. 

Andy: My time in football was the best of my life until something changed. Sometimes it’s hard to put your finger on exactly what shifted, but it’s an undeniable feeling for many. A deep sense of belonging no longer outweighs the pressure you have to endure. 

Andy: And he carries on a little further after that. But what I’m coming to is a comment that came back and I’ll read you this comment. And this is the belter. Football hasn’t changed, Danny. The people involved have or the real genuine people who were in the game because it was in their blood have disappeared. 

Andy: I have been involved my entire life, 48 years player manager and 33 years of registered agent. And last week I decided to walk away from the industry. Why? Because I can’t deal with the vast majority in the clubs on the recruitment side. 

Andy: And I read that comment and it really saddens me that someone who spent his entire working life in football has drawn a line under it and walked away. And I contacted him to make sure it was okay for me to relate this on Talking the Blues. 

Andy: And he very kindly said, yes, no problem at all, because I have met this guy a couple of times and spent a very pleasant afternoon with him once. And this is David Hodgson, former Middlesbrough, Liverpool, Swansea and England under 21 striker. 

Andy: And it really, really saddens me that this guy, he might have played for them across the park. But like I said, I spent a very pleasant afternoon with him a couple of years ago. And he’s a really, really nice guy and deeply cared about football and he’s walked away from it. 

Andy: And I just thought, how sad, how disappointed that someone with his pedigree in the game has become so disillusioned with aspects of the game now that he’s drawn a line under it. And I just thought, like I said, for me, I just think it’s so disappointing and sad, sad for him and sad for the game. 

Paul: Yeah. 

Andy: I don’t really know where we go with it, but I just felt it needed a wider audience to know about it, that there’s a guy who’s given his life to the game. And whatever has irritated him this far, it’s finally got to the point where he’s turned his back on it. 

Andy: 

And football as an industry, he terms it the industry, should be concerned that someone with his background and heritage in the game has turned his back on it. That’s I think what I’m trying to say is football needs to start looking at itself. 

Andy: Football needs to start thinking, you know, are clubs being part of multi-team organizations and owned by private equities and whatever, whatever. Maybe football needs to really have a deep look at itself. 

Andy: Some of the clubs need to look more in depth internally at themselves about how they deal with people and how they deal with one another and how they treat people within the game and particularly how they treat the fans who by and large seems to me the fans are treated with contempt. 

Andy: And I think that’s what David Hudson is maybe alluding to, that it’s no longer pleasant, you know, it’s no longer the thing that drove him to get up every morning. 

Paul: Wow. 

George: That planned. 

Andy: You know, and like I said, he’s he’s a really, really nice guy. He might have played for them, but he’s he’s a really nice guy. When I read that, it really did disappoint him suddenly. So. 

Paul: I remember a friend of mine who, I didn’t know you were going to talk about him, Andy, and knew him when he was at Darlington. 

Andy: Yeah. 

Paul: because he wrote a book. He did something. What’s Darlington’s nickname? Quakers, isn’t it? Quakers. Yeah, yeah. The book, something about Quakers. Not not not not not the religious perspective, Quakers being Darlington Football Club. 

Paul: Well, that’s quite shocking really. 

Andy: Yeah. So I’m very grateful that, you know, I said I contacted him and said, would you mind if I mentioned it? And he said, please do. So I’m very grateful to him for that. And hopefully, you know, maybe maybe it’s maybe it’s a note with some people within the game. 

Andy: You know, they need to start thinking about the people that they work with and who work with them, who work for them. But we’ll see. 

Paul: There you go. All right, guys. Thank you so much for your contributions and hopefully an interesting conversation. Much more interesting than the game yesterday, I hope. 

Paul: And well, yeah, I look forward to you both celebrating the ultimate victory over Manchester United next week. 

George: We’re not conceding. 

Andy: I’m not conceding. JP will not be happy if he concedes. 

George: Well, he lets the penalty in, just for a laugh. He just stands there leaning on the post and goes, go on, wanker, put it in the corner. David Hodgson’s book was called Three Times a Quaker. 

Andy: That’s it. 

George: Okay, see you next week guys. 

Andy: 

Cheers Our kid. Excellent stuff. 

Paul: Take care guys. Thanks to everybody for listening and as we always say thank you to everybody who reads the transcripts. The transcripts actually continually get more and more popular which is great. 

Paul: Although the transcript does, the software I use to produce the transcript, I have to say sometimes does have difficulty distinguishing between you and me and George. 

Andy: Yeah, I noticed that. 

George: All the clever things are me. 

Andy: Which is you. 

George: Oh, yeah, that’s true. Sorry. 

Paul: So occasionally you get wrongly attributed. 

Andy: No worries. 

George: It’s absolutely weird because, you know, sometimes the phone rings and I pick it up and I can’t tell which of my three sons it is. They all sound the same. It’s weird. But it doesn’t apply to you because you’ve only got one child and then a boy and a girl, but it’s just something in the timbre of the voice or something I’m boring myself to death here. 

Paul:  All right guys, take care. Thank you so much. Bye. Bye. Bye now.