Paul: Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, depending upon when the world you are and what time of the day you’re listening to this wind swept version of talking the blues and and in George, how are you both? 

George: Windswept! 

Paul: Was it Billy Connolly’s autobiography that was called Windswept and an interesting…

George: Windswept and glamorous wasn’t it? 

Paul: I don’t know who. Well, I suspect you’re probably more accurate than I am on it and I remember the windswept bit, whether it was glamorous or interesting I don’t know. 

Both really could be, all three actually couldn’t it. Yeah definitely windswept and obviously, we’re, we’re talking on a Saturday afternoon our time. Because there’s no game this weekend, which is a great shame. 

Andy: Oh, it’s a great shame that the Darby has been postponed but I guess, I guess the romantics will welcome the fact that when it’s rescheduled it’s highly likely to be an evening game and it will be another game under the lights. 

And it’s also highly likely that we’ll have a new manager. But, yeah, I mean if there’s one redeeming point of all of this is that some likely the dice will be standing on the touchline. Also gives, you know, some of the players that he would never dream of picking a chance to get fit and get themselves in contention for a place in the team. 

Paul: There are, you know, there’s got to be positives to delay and get hammered by Liverpool isn’t there. there’s a free week or, you know, middle of the week, so Tuesday or Wednesday, whatever. Because the Champions League games haven’t started. 

I don’t think they’ve started again then yet. So it’s likely to be early mid-February. Right. We’ll be out of the FA Cup by then anyway, so it won’t really matter. 

George: The wave of pessimism. Tell me the story about Peterborough. 

What’s going on? I don’t know this story. 

Andy: Well, Everton have been drawn at home against Peterborough United in the FA Cup in the third round. And because of the TV and everything, it’s been scheduled for a Thursday night, which is, I mean, it’s just ridiculous to have a midweek game. 

I mean, it’s the FA Cup. This is the competition that stirs the loins of every football fan, you know, every football fan, particularly from the smaller clubs. They want to draw the big club and make some money out of it. 

And it’s the romanticism of the FA Cup. It’s the road to Wembley. It’s six or seven games and you could be picking up a piece of silverware at the end of it. And to my mind, the FA Cup should always be played on a Saturday afternoon, or if we have to split the pictures, then some on a Saturday, some on a Sunday. 

To be playing FA Cup matches mid-week and for Peterborough fans to have to travel up to Merseyside on a Thursday, they’re going to be leaving. They’re going to have to start setting up at lunchtime, probably, you know, finishing work at lunchtime and then travelling up, whether they’re coming on the train or coach or on the car or whatever. 

But then they’ve got to get home afterwards. You can’t go from Merseyside to Peterborough by train after 10 o’clock, probably not even after 8 o’clock at night, never mind 10 o’clock at night. The football authorities have completely lost touch with the fans who are the lifeblood of the game. 

They don’t give a toss about the fans. They don’t give a toss about the Evertonians who have to make arrangements to get there on a Thursday night, you know, because not everybody lives within five minutes walk of Goodison. 

People travel from all over the country, you know, every single game, but there’s no consideration whatsoever for the people who will travel up from Peterborough because they will undoubtedly sell their allocation of tickets because A it’s their FA Cup, B They’ll fancy their chances against the current Everton and you know it might be their only chance to ever visit Goodison before Goodison you know makes way for Bramley Moore. 

It just beggars belief that the people that run football and more so the people within the club, maybe both clubs, have agreed to this. Why can’t clubs just turn down and say no, F off. This is going to be three o’clock on a Sunday. 

George: Because Everton sold to television companies Andy, I don’t think, is it the FA who’s made that decision?

Andy: Surely it’s the television company going we want a match on Thursday night please, decide who. 

George: Isn’t it? I’m asking. I’m not saying you’re wrong Andy, I’m asking isn’t that what’s going on? 

PaulWell yeah, sorry George, I cut cross you. that the various broadcasters have got the right to broadcasting, the FA Cup will say, we won a Thursday evening slot for rounds three and four. 

 We want Friday, night, Saturday, lunchtime, Saturday afternoon, Sunday, lunchtime, Sunday afternoon, and maybe even a Monday as well. And the FA will have sold individual packages to the broadcasters, allocating those slots. 

So that’s already, that will have been done and will be in place for a number of years, maybe three, four, five years. And so that’s there already. And then what happens once the draw is made is the the broadcaster says, well, actually, I would quite like that game, or I would like that game. 

And there’s a bit of horse trading going that goes on about who gets what game when. And obviously, you know, if it’s a contentious game, or if it’s a game that could be potentially contentious, if it’s a Derby or whatever, the local authorities, the safety certificate issuers get involved, and the police get involved as to, you know, if it was United versus City or Jefferson versus Liverpool, when the game could be played. 

And broadly, it is driven by the fact that the FA have sold all of these individual packages to the different broadcasters. 

Andy:And the ludicrous thing about the the Everton piece of bro game, the Thursday evening package, is that it’s not even going to go out on terrestrial TV, it’s going to go out on a BBC iPlayer, which is restricted only to veering in the UK unless you’re overseas and you happen to have a VPN or some other I just think it shows a complete, however these decisions are made, that the last thing that’s considered is the fans. That’s absolutely true. In fact, if I was a Peterborough fan, you know, I’d be fuming, because I’d want to go, I’d want to go to see the game, I’d want to go and see my team play at Goodison, you know. 

Goodison’s one of those venues that, you know, everybody wants to visit, and it needs the last season, even more so. I just find it reprehensible that the club, both clubs, have to count out of it. Somebody’s come along and said, oh, this game’s going to be Thursday night, and potentially nobody at Peterborough has been able to say, no, we’re not prepared to play on a Thursday night. 

George: Well, you sold, Andy. They’ve already given up that right. well that’s then for me that that’s completely and utterly wrong and it destroyed it further damages for my the you know the i don’t know the i’m trying to think of the right word you know that for one of the better choice the romanticism of the FA cup you know i thought i’d been a saturday afternoon i mean the place will probably fall anyway you know but that’s not the point the point is that a lot a lot of people are going to are going to be inconvenienced and now potentially you know ridiculous journeys to get there and get and more more importantly to get home well i question whether i question whether it will be full andy I mean I haven’t checked these statistics but i would bet you that um attendances for fa cup ties have been falling and falling and falling because the whole competition has been completely devalued in a life devalued yeah but I just think third round you know when Peterborough are never going to play at Goodison again so i i cannot see them not selling their allocation and obviously they get an even bigger they get a bigger allocation and i would imagine you know without being without being ridiculously pessimistic you know with with the form that haven’t been in of late um you know oh i i i’ve made my way to before the saturday or the Thursday after the saturday i just think it’s wrong you know but you know i’m sorry but i i i’m annoyed i’m annoyed for both sets of fans not just the Posh fans who’ve got that ridiculous, because it’s not exactly easy, you know, it’s a cross-country hike for them. 

Andy: Yeah, you got to get there. I know, I did it yesterday.

George:  I know, I was thinking about when I got to Stor… what’s that thing called, that airport? 

Andy: Stansted. Yeah, you got to go by people. You know, I came back, it took five and a half hours to get back on the train yesterday. So, if people are going to come by train, God knows how they’re going to get home, they’ll have to stay the night. 

Which means they won’t come by train, everybody will be driving, the roads will be clogged, it’ll be a nightmare for them getting… they’re not going to be getting home to school or work the following day. 

It’s just inconsiderate.

George: Oh, there’s no room in the schedule, is there?

Andy:  I mean, what you’re saying is… What’s the room in the schedule? The schedule is there for Saturday. Play the games on Saturday. 

George:  No, I can’t argue with you. I kind of agree with you. The TV companies can show all the games anyway. All the highlights are available irrespective of whatever day they played. So this is just about milking the fans who are prepared to travel, and it’s milking the fans who may or may not have to pay the various TV packages to watch a specific game. 

Andy: Now, as Paul said, the Everton-Peterborough game is going to be shown on a BBC iPlayer. You won’t be able to watch it, are you, in France? 

George: No, I won’t. No. Well, that’s standing considerate, isn’t it? 

Andy: What about all the Peterborough fans who live in Rieperu? 

George:There’s thousands of the bastards. They were all going to come round your house. Bugger off you posh lots. 

Paul: You know, Peterborough have never played at Goodison Park. 

Andy: So even there you go. So that’s it. That makes it even worse. That makes it even worse. The one and only time that Peterborough United get to play Everton Football Club at Goodison Park and it shoved on a Thursday night and on a channel that after work, well, nine tenths of the world won’t be able to watch. 

George: Well, there you have what the FA thinks of it.

Paul: The quiz question is, how many times have Everton played at Peterborough United?

George: Well, they’ve never played at Goodison. How many times have we played at Peterborough then? 

That’s the question. Twice? 

Paul:  No, we’ve played once in the… in the league cup, I think it was, was it 2006? That would have been midweek then, wouldn’t it? Yeah, it’s midweek, I think. I remember we won, I think we won 2-1, I think it might have been an own goal and I think Tim Cahill scored. 

 I looked that up a couple of weeks ago, but… 

George:And who scored the goal, Jimmy Greaves? I mean, the deaf thing is, you know, people say, well, that was midweek. The league cup was always midweek. The FA Cup, historically, is a Saturday game, or it should be. 

In terms of the way football is structured and thought about now, Andy, there’s no difference between the FA Cup and the Karaoke Cup. The prize for winning them is exactly the same. Yeah. And now should we talk about Old Trafford? 

Paul: Unfortunately, we weren’t able to get together for the last two games, one of which was 4-0 in our favour, one of which wasn’t 4-0 in our favour, it was 4-0 in favour of United. Obviously for both of you, the worst possible result? 

 Andy: I have to be honest, I didn’t see it. I’ve seen the goals and the low lights, but I went into it, I kind of mentally prepared myself for another loss. To quote what I have seen, an expected loss, as it usually is against United. 

We’ve got an absolutely disgusting record against them. You’ve got the worst record, haven’t you? It is. The worst record in the Premier League, certainly in the Premier League era. Any two teams that have been in the Premier League every single year, they’ve taken more points off of us than any other club has taken of any other. 

George: It’s ridiculous. It’s embarrassing. And they told us, Darren Gibson. It’s just a rub salt and an open wound. 

Paul: You know, I just realised this as we were talking. We’ve lost more games to Manchester United in the Premier League era than we’ve beaten Liverpool at Goodison in league games. 

Andy: In history? 

Paul: In history. We’ve lost 42 times against Manchester United in the Premier League. I suppose one of the great things about this Derby game now hasn’t happened is that both Everton and Liverpool have won 41 times at Goodison. 

 George: Right so we’re neck and neck um and that’s why it would have been good for many reasons why it would have been so important for us to have won this game but obviously um it didn’t happen.

 Andy did you see did you happen to see the wolves game i did see the wolves game that was i couldn’t believe what i was watching um i mean well i mean where’d you start with it with it i mean correct me if i’m wrong because like i said i didn’t see you know i’ve seen the goals from Old Trafford and that’s about it but from everything i read and and the messages that were coming through with the first 20 25 minutes at Old Trafford we were certainly competitive but the moment they scored or from the moment they scored everything went completely pear-shaped. 

Andy: But then against Wolves, you know, I was quite encouraged by the bright start, although I think Jordan Pickford made the first real save of the game. And then it became just a free kick, score. Will it get a set piece and something will happen? 

 Don’t get me wrong, it was great to see Everton win 4-0, it was great for the crowd to have really something to get their teeth into. Yeah, but there was, I mean, even in that 4-0 win, Wolves had the chances. 

 It’d be wrong to say it was a paper over the cracks, but, you know, grateful for the three points, grateful for four goals and some excitement, but there’s still a bit of work to do. Understatement of the week. 

Paul: What were your views, George? 

George: Well, I did watch the United match and it was, Andy’s description, which might well have got from my text, was right, I think. You know, if we’d scored in the first 20 minutes, that game could have ended up with the same score line, but the other way around, because they were as weak as I’ve seen them in quite a long time. 

As soon as they scored, the transference of confidence, which is, you know, implausible for anybody to coach into something, it can only happen on the back of results and the feeling between the members of a team, members of a squad, just went from blue to red. 

Howlers from Tarkowski, which is rarer than Branthwaite, which was also, you know, you thought the only positive I took from the whole experience was, well, I bet you and I won’t want to buy now. It was ghastly and supine and there were a couple of oddities, like at the end, as the players and the coaches came out for the second half, the camera followed the three stooges going down the line, Woan, Stone and Dyche….. 

 Holding their hands over their mouths as they discussed something. And I thought to myself, what that expletive deleted, do you think you’re saying that’s so interesting that you think anybody’s going to be trying to lip read it so they can pass it on to somebody else? 

 And then as you calm down, you think, no, they might well have been slagging off the players. That’s why they were putting their hands over their mouths. I don’t know. It was just, you know, I got like, I’m sure any evertonian, but it’s obviously the few of us who were Mancs. 

 It was just. We didn’t even give them a game, man. It was awful, horrible. And and the rules match. Yeah, it was nice and very nice to see a smile on DCL’s face, even though he didn’t get either of the goals. 

 Andy: It was so unlucky. It was so lucky that Dawson got a touch on both of them. 

George: Yeah. Well, you know, it was it was great to hear some noise and for people to express their love and their enthusiasm by shouting their team on. 

And I have to say, you know, today is a godsend, really, because I did watch Liverpool midweek as well. And they are imperious. They are a very, very good side, indeed. And February can come as slow as it likes. 

Thanks very much. That’s fine by me. What was your take, Paul? Because I know you watched it as well.

Paul:  And yeah, pretty much pretty much as you both said it, I thought that I thought United were really, really, really poor. 

 And, you know, for some unexplainable, inexplicable reason, we just folded the moment that they scored. I don’t believe they can do it. No. Having had such a bright start as well, and, you know, I think Beto is a little unlucky with the one that just clicked the post. 

On a different day, you might have scored there, but as you say, there was just no belief in the moment they scored. We knew we knew what the result was going to be. And then, you know, for everything that  Dyche talks about, we seem to do almost the opposite when we play the balls. 

But as you say, the game could have finished up 8-3 or something of that nature. It was just one of those remarkable games, wasn’t it? I don’t actually think Eversen played that well. I think we’ve played better at times this season. 

 It was obviously more enjoyable to watch, whether by design or just by virtue of the players taking it upon themselves. It was probably the least typical Dyche performance that we’ve seen for a while. 

Which is probably why we ended up scoring four goals. But it was much needed, wasn’t it? It’d be interesting to see, having won the Wolves game and now having escaped a potential drubbing by Liverpool, how we can take advantage of those two results. 

Obviously, one not being a result, but not having had a drubbing and going into the really tough fixtures that we’ve got next. And it’d be interesting to see how Dyche prepares the team for that, because I suppose in all of this as well, obviously, a lot of people will have seen the game, talked about the game and everything else. 

But the backdrop to this, of course, is Dyche’s behaviour as his press conferences seem to be getting more and more erratic. And he appears to be less and less in control of being able to maintain his emotions. 

And I think about what we’re seeing…

George: Give me the details of this, Paul, I haven’t seen… Yeah, I do it best to avoid him, fill me in on that. 

Paul: Well, I think the fact that he constantly, with increasing frequency, makes reference to how difficult the situation is at Everton, whether he wasn’t told or whether he wasn’t appreciative of what he was buying into when he came to Everton, the situation certainly was worse than he thought it would be. 

And the one thing I couldn’t quite understand is why he feels it necessary to constantly refer to the expectations and the standards that the fans set for the club, and why he doesn’t use that as a positive rather than using it as a negative against those fans which to me, to do that just seems so counterproductive in every sense. 

And I just get the feeling that… And if you look at his body language, and I think we mentioned this previously, but if you look at his body language, he looks like a man who’s absolutely on the edge of his abilities, and a man who is under extreme stress. 

You know, that’s how I, if it took it, if it took it out of football for a minute. And if I looked at it from the point of view of, you know, if we were running a business or if you owned a business, and you call your CEO in, and you heard your CEO talking in those terms, the business perhaps not performing as well as you might want it to do, and you look at his body language, and you look at the fact that he’s sniffing, he tends to smear his face when he’s talking, all the classic signs of somebody who’s under extreme amounts of pressure. To the extent that he can no longer mask that because I think in the past he’s been able to do so. 

I think actually, you know, one of the characteristics of Dyche is that he’s always been able to give this persona of somebody who is a) in control and b) somebody who attempts to set himself at a higher standard, not necessarily from a footballing point of view, but from a management perspective, almost from an intellectual perspective, a higher standard than other football managers do. 

And that’s okay if it’s demonstrated by what he says, by how he manages, by how he looks, how he presents himself, how he explains the circumstances through which he’s currently experiencing. But actually everything that he’s doing currently, not only in terms of how the club is playing, you know, how the team is playing, how he selects players, his in-game management, his substitutions, but also all of his behaviours off the pitch and all of his behaviours in front of the media suggest the absolute reverse to me. 

And, you know, without putting too fine a point on it, the day he’s relieved of his duties, can’t come quickly enough for me, regardless of the rules game, both for Everton’s benefit, but also for his, you know, he’s another manager that the club is, for whatever reason, and there’s a multitude of reasons. 

 We’re too big a club for him.

George:  I’ve been having similar thoughts. I don’t disagree with, I mean, I don’t, I didn’t know the stuff about the press conferences, but the rest of it is clear. And I think you’re right, I think he’s a man at the end of his rope. 

But I’m normal, what happens in this situation in Talking talking to Blues, I’m going to defend him to this point. When Doucoure scored the goal against Bournemouth and kept us in the division, if the club had had any leadership, any character, any board, any collection of individuals with any ambition and hope for the club, they would have said, Sean, you’re a star. 

Thanks very much. Here’s a big payoff. Off you go. We are now going to go on to the next stage. And they didn’t. And he’s a man who’s run out of road. You’re right. He’s at a limit where Manchester United have scored a goal and he has got nothing in his locker to do anything about it, either through prejudice because he’s picking the wrong players or because he doesn’t like certain players, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la. Against United, we end up with the team that left the pitch is the team that should have walked on to the pitch. But no, that’s not the way he works. I just don’t see the mileage in bashing him anymore. 

Andy: I think he should have been relieved of his duties. But nobody at Everton Football Club had or there is nobody there now. I’m just waiting like you for the Friedkins to arrive and to make some mature decisions about the positivity with whichever needs to go forward. 

George: He has done his job. He was brought here to save us and keep us in the Premier League. And he’s done it. And, you know, apart from the points deductions last season, he did even better than he thought he did. 

But he’s clearly, I agree with you. He’s at the end of his rope. He’s at the end of his there’s no he’s got nothing. He’s got nowhere else to go. He looks in the tank and it’s tired now. I think he’d like you can’t wait for him to be relieved of his duties. 

But the fault lies with the club, not with him, I think. He’s limited and now we can see it. And we have seen it. And, you know, despite the rules match, we’ve all been terribly dissatisfied with the kind of football that we’re playing. 

And he doesn’t understand that. The Evertonians deep in their soul want you to play some football for crying out loud. You know, what was that statistic you had last week about the longer the number of longest passes or by miles? 

Who man, who gets rid of it? That’s the end of that rant. I’m looking forward to him leaving and I’m looking forward to him being treated with some respect. But I think he’s tired out, absolutely tired out. 

Andy: Yeah, that’s when you put it like that. Yeah, he’s well, he’s had limited ideas in his locker and he’s run out, he’s used them all and run out. He hasn’t got another playbook to turn to, has he? 

 George: Well, the the biggest thing that I took from the Wolves match, Andy, was Broja. Yeah, who comes on, he looks reasonably fit. I mean, he only has to do 15 minutes of it, but he can trap it. And he’s going, yeah, you want to have a physical battle to write. 

Come on, then. And immediately he thought, oh, brilliant. Here we go against Liverpool Saturday, Saturday morning. He starts DCL on this dude and the weather has put an end to that. But even before the weather put an end to that, you know, your next thought is he won’t do any such thing. 

No, no, there’s no way there’s no way he would have played any combination of two from. But that’s all he ever did play when he was with Burnley. Anyway, I think, you know, the amount of time we have left to discuss Sean Dyches, thankfully for everybody, I think I certainly hope is limited. 

Well. We’ll only find out once the deal’s completed and the Friedkins are in charge. How far away from that, Paul, do you think?

(Silence)

Andy:  He’s gone.

George: He’s disgusted with my defence. 

Andy:He’s probably brewing up while you were having a run. 

Paul:Have you finished yet? Oh, hello, George. Sorry about that. (laughter) I think we’re very close. I think there’s every prospect that we’re going to complete this before Christmas. 

George: But when you… Sorry, Paul, just to interrupt, because you said last week, if Moshiri and Bill Kenright’s estates agree, this could go through a fortnight faster than we hoped. 

Is that going to happen?

Paul:  I don’t know, because the club hasn’t said anything since. And I have asked, but I haven’t heard anything. But realistically, it pretty much has to go through. I think we said this last time we spoke. 

It has to go through before January the 11th, which is the date when there’s the change of the rules. But I think it’s going to go through before the end of the year, even if there’s that delay caused by the shareholders having to convene a general meeting with shareholders. 

Of course, that meeting won’t take place physically. It will just be a virtual meeting. So it’s not as if 800 shareholders are going to be able to get together in the Philharmonic and give Moshiri a slating. 

It’s just going to be a virtual meeting with a resolution. He will already have made his vote anyway, so it will obviously just all be waved through. I think that the Premier League approval, we’re going to see, I think it is days away as against weeks away now, days away. 

And, you know, all the noises off stage are very much, and the Friedkins have been meticulous in not talking publicly, but obviously they involve other parties in some of the things that they’ve been doing. 

And there is a little bit of leakage now as to what’s happening elsewhere. So, you know, they’re looking to appoint the CEO, they’re looking to appoint a new Chair of the board. That process is well underway. 

People have been interviewed. I believe there’s some favourites now for those positions. And there will be new board members as well. Not necessarily Andy Bell or George Downing as people might have wanted, but others. 

So we will end up in a situation by, certainly by the beginning of the year, if not before the end of the year, where we have a completely brand, obviously brand new ownership but also a brand new board, including a brand new chief executive officer. 

So from that perspective, things will look an awful lot brighter. At least we might get some direction. Well, there will be an opportunity for the new managers, I mean the managers of the business to come in and start making good on all the damages of the past. 

And it is going to take time, it’s not going to happen overnight, but at least the tanker will start turning and we won’t continue to head towards the rocks at full speed, which is what we’ve been doing for a number of years. 

George: I’ll say. 

Paul: That is going to be converted into equity for the Friedkins, so that is going to happen. And much of the other debt, so including the Friedkin debt and the 777/A-Cap debt is going to be converted into equity as well. 

So at least £650 million worth of what is currently debt. debt will be converted into equity, and it may be a slightly higher figure than that at the end of the day as well. So from a business perspective, the balance sheet will be improved enormously. 

And importantly for the club going forwards, the cost of all of that debt, I know the machinery debt didn’t carry costs, but everything else did, is going to reduce massively in the coming weeks. And that will be a big step towards us first of all, having stability, but then being able to move forwards and perhaps start recruiting properly and maybe have a stronger squad in the second half of the season. 

And then of course, we’ve got this massive change at the end of the season when almost two-thirds of the squad are out of contract.

Andy:  I mean, I was going to say, do you think there will be player acquisitions in January? 

 Paul: I think that has to be added. Well, that presumes therefore that there will almost certainly be an immediate change of manager, because they surely couldn’t recruit players with Sean Dyche’s and then relieve him of his duties. 

 If we are going to recruit in the January window, then surely the change of manager has to be almost instantaneous. Makes sense. I don’t disagree at all, and I think all the evidence is pointing towards that happening. 

George: So the $64,000 question then is that as and when Sean Dyche departs, who’s the incumbent? Who do we think? Ben Stokes. 

Paul: I mean, personally, and this is only my opinion, it’s not based on any insight. 

 I think David Moyes gets the gig initially. 

George: Wow.

Paul:  I mean, I’ve said that for a while. But I think he probably gets an 18 month contract. So you’d see out the rest of this season and probably see next season as well. 

 Andy: Do you think that’s purely from a stability angle?

Paul:  Yeah, settle everything down. You know, let’s establish a base upon which a new director of football and then a new manager can move the club forwards. 

 George: That was going to be my lead on the question. Do you think that if, and obviously this is complete conjecture, as you said, you know, we don’t know anything. But if David Moyes were to replace Sean Dyche, and if it was an 18-month contract, do you think that that would be paving the way for David Moyes to ultimately become the new director of football? 

Paul: No, I don’t think so.

George:  I think David Moyes. I’m just putting two and two together and making 78, that’s all. 

Paul: Yeah, no, I don’t think that’s the model. I think he performed, but essentially he performed the role of director of football in, you know, in that long period, 13 years that he was at Everson, at a time before the term director of football was there, he ran Everson Football Club. 

 Yeah. Yes, he had to ask the chairman. for money from time to time and get his permission to do seven things. But basically, he ran the football club. Yeah. Yeah, there’s no doubt about that. Yeah. And thank goodness that he did. 

But, you know, for all reservations that we had at different times in his period with us. And but I don’t think he’s I don’t think he’s a modern director of football. I think he’s, you know, he’s a decent enough coach, and he’ll create some stability and he’ll create some standards. 

And the most important thing for me, actually, is he will create, he will recreate some identity for us. An identity that is so badly missing. And if you think about it in the context of when we go into Bramley Moore next season, we actually, we need to rediscover the club’s identity before we move into Bramley Moore, we can’t move into Bramley Moore with no with no identity with nothing that is, you know, of what we were in the past. And I think, and again, you know, I’m just obviously talking about my own case here, but I think that David Moyes provides that bridge between the past and the future. 

 George: I think it’s the least ambitious thing I’ve ever heard you say. If someone was asking my opinion about who should take over Moyes, much as I revere him and respect him and enjoy him, I would be cloaked in cobwebs to me. 

I hope that they’re going to sweep out everything and come in with somebody who might be an ex-Evertonian so that your point about identity, which I take on board, would be continuous, but not Moyes. got to be more ambitious than that. 

 You’ve got to have somebody who wants to play a brand of football that Moyes has never played. And he’s certainly not going to have that. That’s kind of what I’m hoping for. Yeah. But if they were really wired, you know, I mean, I don’t know. 

And it’s after specular, except, you know, we all are going to speculate. If they gave it to Coleman, I’d be thrilled. 

Paul: No, I know. No, I know. One of the interesting things about the Wolves game was that Coleman gave the rallying call before the game in the dressing room. 

George: There you go. Is that right?

Paul:  Yeah. Right. Yeah, it wasn’t Dyche. Dyche didn’t give the, you know, the last couple of minutes before they all went out. It was, it was Coleman. Even though he wasn’t playing if you recall. 

But at the end of the game, he went around every single player on the pitch and either shook their hand or gave them a hug. 

Andy:Yeah, he did, yeah.

Paul:  Well, and that’s because they did what he wanted them to do. Or what he demanded from them, or what he encourages them to do, whichever way you want to look at it. But a lot, a lot of that was down to Coleman, not, not Dyche. I’m not knocking Dyche by saying that. 

I’m just saying that yet again, Coleman’s influence on the players. Had a positive effect. 

George: Well, I hope Everton keep, keep employing Seamus Coleman in some shape or form. I think that soul that he brings to the club is vital. 

And also his connection with the fans is second to none. You know, you remember him being carried off with his last broken leg, giving a clenched fist as he came off the pitch at Leicester, wherever it was. 

You know, that’s, you can’t print that stuff. And, you know, from what you were saying about Dyche’s press conferences, he doesn’t understand that. Or if he did, he’s fed up with it. But it’s part of Coleman, and it should be part of Everton. 

 So whatever happens, I hope he stays. And you never know, the current right back’s got four years on him, so he could have a very long career. You know, I mean, it’s hard to argue with him picking out Young. 

Young is playing well. I wouldn’t pick him, but he is playing well. and Maldini was playing La Liga football, not La Liga, whatever it’s called, at 41, so it’s possible.

 But Seamus is important to the future, I think. 

I agree entirely on that, that Seamus would be the bridge between Goodison and Bramley Moore, that everybody could walk across, or walk with. What qualification do you need to be a director of football? 

Why can’t Seamus be the director of football? 

Andy: I think that’s a bit of a stretch, bro.

George: Why? It’s a straight question, Andy, I’ve got no agenda. What qualification do you need? 

I’m not entirely sure, but I would imagine that, because it’s the director of football, it depends how you determine the role of the…  

of the director of football has he got complete responsibility for football all levels within the club from the from the youngest of the kids all the way up to the first team or is he just purely dedicated to the first team and then he has you know he appoints plenty of people below him to my mind the director of football should be overseeing at all levels the kids coming in at you know nine ten eleven twelve whatever need to need to be coached in the way that will see them progress all the way up to the first team if they’ve got the natural talent and the application within their psyche isn’t that the legacy of Johan Christ well yeah the right the last thing you need is is is four or five you know four or five levels of a lower football and then when they when they get into the stage whether they should be breaking into the first team that the first team are playing they can in a completely different way you know i think that that’s how i would see a director of football and in and in in line with that the first team manager has to have some responsibility as well um with the coaching of the of the lower levels because you know if we if we’re bringing in a manager who’s who’s going to be there for a good period of time rather than that you know rather than revolving door with that in the last 10 years of managers or since Moises left anyway um i think i think the first team manager has to have input into it there’s got to be a defined structure there good understanding it you’re just making me think about what’s actually happening at Everton. 

The way the first team are playing and have been asked to play and you could say have needed to play in order to survive, who would coach that to kids? Well exactly, it’s got to be a complete sea change in the way that Everton Football Club, you, how Everton Football Club are going to play football for the next 10, 15, 20 years. 

Andy: Yeah, I agree with that. So, you know, you could make a case out that the more important, almost the most important appointment is not the first team coach, but the director of football. Yeah, so long as you give him the power to appoint the first team coach. 

That’s the thing, we’ve had directors of football who we have got severe misgivings as to whether they were ever given, you know, the full range of the responsibility that we would see a director of football having. 

 Yeah, clearly Marcel Brands wasn’t given the full full reigns. 

Paul: Well, we know we know for a fact none of them were.

Andy:  No, exactly. And you have to have some doubts as to whether Kevin Thelwell has been given the full range and whether it actually, you know, I’m not I’m not knocking it. 

George: I’ve never met the guy. I don’t know him. But whether he had the wherewithal to be the kind of director of football, we think that Marcel Brands could well and should well. I said, I bet Seamus Coleman could be. 

Andy: Well, I mean, that’s to me making Seamus director of football would be a heck of a left field move, but. Who’s to say?

Paul:  I mean, this is what I would do which is slightly different. I would say to Seamus  

There’s a player’s contract for you for next season, but you are going to become assistant manager/player. So assistant player manager, if you want to call it that. Right. And you will sit with David Moyes. 

David Moyes will be the manager because he’s, you know, he comes in in January, I say, and you are that bridge. And one of two things will happen. Well, one of three things will happen. It’ll all go wrong. 

And we find out that you’re not a manager and you have to go off and do something else. Two, we decide to keep David Moyes and you stay as David Moyes, number two or three, which is more likely after 18 months we’re going to bring in another manager and you will continue to be the assistant, but you will be the bridge between what’s happened in the past. 

And whoever the new manager is going forward, separate from all of that, we appoint a director of football. And that director of football is given a three to five year timeframe upon which to build and develop the club in the manner in which it needs to be done. And that obviously includes the academy. 

But it radically changes what the academy is, and our approach, our approach to the academy. And I would do this regardless. Anyway, I think whoever the director of football is, when they come in, you say to them, right, the academy is the equivalent of the research and development area of a business, say a manufacturing business. 

If you think about the players, the players are the products of the club. So if it’s a business, they’re the products that the business sells. Not quite the same, obviously, in football, but nevertheless, they are the products, they are the things that generate the revenue going forward by virtue of where we end up in the league, whether we end up in European competitions, etc, etc. So they drive the future revenues from the footballing side, at least. But the Academy, the Academy is all about research and development. 

It’s about finding the best players that we can do at a very early age. And what we say to those players is not the idea of you coming to this Academy, it is that one day you’ll be a first team player for Everton. 

I don’t think you can say that to anybody, because if you bring in a nine year old lad, he’s not going to play first team football, probably for 10 years, maybe, maybe eight, nine years. But let’s say nine, 10 years. 

We’ve got no idea who the manager is going to be in nine years time. We’ve got no idea where we’re going to be on the football ladder in nine years time. So how can you promise somebody or suggest to somebody that joining our Academy will make you an Everton first team player one day in the future? 

I think that’s the wrong approach. The approach should be that the purpose of our Academy is that we will, first of all, find the best players that we can. And secondly, we will dedicate all of our resources within the Academy to ensuring that you have a career in professional football. 

And that career in professional football will either be with Everton, possibly, or more likely be with another football club. It might be a bigger club than Everton. It might be a smaller club than Everton. 

But what we will do is we will, the reason for you joining us is that we will make you or give you the best opportunity to become a professional footballer, what you want. And if they, if they’re good enough, if they fit the style of the future Everton in eight, nine years time, then perhaps they join the first team. 

But if they don’t, they will. We’ve prepared them to be professional footballers and we can sell them and we can use those resources then either to recruit more young players or those resources to go into the first team squad to recruit players from elsewhere. 

And I think that’s the big and fundamental change that has to happen, Everton with regards to its academy. We’re not a big enough club to say to people, you join us and one day you’ll play for Everton because I don’t think that’s a strong enough sell and I don’t think it’s a sensible strategy to take. 

 The strategy should be, we will develop you to be the best professional footballer that your skills and your talent and your hard work permit you to be. It might mean you play for Everton but it probably means that you play for somebody else. 

Yeah, but that’s what I would do. So, for me, there’s a clear plan, you, I say you bring Moyes in, you make Coleman, the assistant coach, assistant manager, still with a player contract, perhaps for another 18 months, and new director of football. 

And then I think you’ve established a base from which you can move forward.

Andy: Being devil’s advocate, then let’s just say that that happened that come January. And we say to ta ta Sean Dyche and David Moyes returns. 

And do you think Moyes, he would happily work under the director of football, he strikes me as he is entirely his own man. Do you think he would think he would accept or be happy willing to work for or under a deal with. 

Paul: I think you would, but I think it also depends upon how you sell the position to him. And again, I can only talk about what I would do. What I would be saying to David Moyes is like, David, you and you coming back to Everton for a number of reasons. 

One is to provide some stability. Two is to provide some identity. But three also is to take the club into the new stadium, which will, you know, assist your legacy with the football club. We will be bringing in a director of football because we think that the task that we’re asking you to do is so big a task that we can’t ask you to do what you did previously. 

Everything was just actors, director of football whilst being the manager. At the same time, we need to bring another person in to do that. And that’s not a reflection of you or a reflection of your abilities. 

It’s just an acknowledgement of the amount of work that needs doing at the football club. Yeah, and the importance of actually sorting out what’s happening on the football pitch now, because even if he can’t even if he comes in on January the 1st, we’re not guaranteed to be a Premier League football club next season. 

And if we don’t make massive changes in our football instructor and stuff and whatever the recruitment is in the summer, we won’t necessarily be guaranteed to be a Premier League club after the next season, you know, going into a new stadium and all that. 

But that doesn’t necessarily mean we’re going to be. any more competitive in the Premier League next season than we are this season. So that’s what we want you to do David and that’s the reason why we want you to do it and that’s the reason why we need to recruit a director of football at the same time. 

 George: And if you win the league we’ll keep you on. 

Paul: Well if you win the league you can name your price can’t you? 

George: Yeah you can have your own statue. Except I don’t agree about Moyes but that’s neither any of that. 

I think I agree with all of that except I don’t agree about Moisey. The structure you’re talking about makes complete sense and one hopes that you know the Friedkins if they’re listening to this will be going yeah yeah yeah well that’s exactly where we’re headed. 

Yeah I mean whether the individuals that we’re talking about are the right others are the same ones that they’re thinking of who knows at this stage but they must be thinking down those lines. Yes they are. 

Paul: They must be. Structurally at least. And what we do know about them elsewhere of course AS Roma is that they’re not scared of making big decisions nor are they scared of changing those decisions if they have to. 

George: Bring it on. Bring it on as fast as you can please. Arsenal next week for God’s sake. Yeah yeah. 

Paul: Sounds as if you’re dreading it already George? 

George: I am. I am because our record at the Emirates is almost as bad as the one at Old Trafford. 

 I am dreading it. I’m dreading that he’ll pick Doucoure and he’ll be bypassed by the game.  When we finished, when the match against United finished, the back four was Pickford, Patterson, O’Brien, Branthwaite, Mykolenko. 

That’s, you know, with respect to Tarkowski, and I have nothing but respect for him. That sounds like the future to me. And unfortunately, we’re dealing with a man who’s living in the past somehow. 

Paul: Yeah, but that’s hopefully what we get past.

George: I hope so. Very, very quickly. Yeah, please. Ooh. Okay. I’m not sure. Have you got any more to add to? 

Andy: I’ve just got a little shout out for another supporter. 

Because on Wednesday night. while we were tonking Wolves. My mate Colin, who resides out in Saudi, is a Geordie, and he was obviously watching the Toon and our friends from across the park. And he was getting awfully vexed with what was going on at St James’s Park. 

 And then he told me about how he’d spent the previous Saturday, when we were getting thumped at Old Trafford, Sunday, sorry, at Old Trafford. He’d spent time in Bahrain with an Evertonian and they watched United. 

And he said this guy, Darren Blythe, his name is Darren, thanks for listening to us. We were awfully stressed by what was going on at Old Trafford. I mean, apparently Darren is a regular listener to Talking the Blues, so thanks for listening to us, Darren. 

And we hope the Wolves result put you in a better frame of mind. 

Paul: Sorry, George, you were about to say something?

George: No, I was only saying just imagining being that far from home and finding a bar and then watching Everton and just going, oh my God, all the best. 

We’re going to thrash Arsenal. Just for Darren. Yeah, we’ll get four free kicks, four headers, and then, oh, and I can’t be right. Cheers, guys. Oh, lovely. This would be wonderful. 

Paul: Well, I mean, let’s look on the bright side. 

This has been the most stress-free Derby weekend we’ve had for years. We can start the stress levels again on Monday when we start to anticipate the Arsenal game. All right, gents, thank you so much for your time. 

Thank you to everybody for listening. Thank you.

Andy: My pleasure. 

Paul: Belated apologies for not having put the podcast out last week. It just didn’t work. But hopefully we’ve caught up with everybody and everything. 

And, yeah, we look forward to talking about Arsenal next week when, contrary to George’s expectations, we come away with a victory. 

Yeah, man. Good stuff. Thanks, guys. 

Paul & Andy: Take care. Thanks for listening. 

 Bye. Bye now.