Paul:  Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, depending upon where in the world you are. I’m not done of the day, you’re listening to this episode of Talking the Blues.

George and Andy, how are you both? Good night. Good. Are you re-energized, reinvigorated and re-moist? 

Andy: Well, I mean, it’s really great for creaking. 

George: Thank you. 

Paul: Who would ever have thought that we’d have David Moyes, Leighton Baines, on the touchline at Everton, and Donald Trump just about to go back into the White House? Anyway, enough of the White House and stuff.Let’s talk about the Blue House and, well, what a difference seven or eight days makes. 

Andy: Yeah, I mean, I’m not going to get carried away just yet, but because obviously the match against Villa was disappointing in as much as we didn’t take anything from it. And I felt sadly that it was probably just about the right result.

But I was encouraged on Sunday with the game against Spurs. Because it’s been such a fallow last time we beat Spurs at Goodison Moyes was manager, which is a shocking indictment of every manager that’s succeeded him. 

And that the next victory over Spurs is back is with Moyes back at the helm. But that’s definitely a feather in his cap. 

And for the first half, I thought we played really, really well. As he said, you know, he wants them to play more aggressively and get on the front foot and push teams back. And we did that. 

And I have to say, I thought as against the player who watched in recent weeks under Sean Dyche, Dominic Calvert-Lewin looked on and revived. 

George: at least. 

Andy: He looks totally re-energised and so did Lindstrom.

 I think Lindstrom was given a specific role rather than just giving a blue shirt and going out to play. I think he was told, I think he was under instruction. 

I won’t say all, that sounds a bit too official but certainly under instructions as to what his role in the side was going to be and I thought he played really really well.Noticeable, you know, that Spurs improved after he left the field. 

George: Sorry, Andy, just cutting across here to completely underline that. We ended up with three right backs on the pitch at one time or another, and all of them suffered without him.He worked so hard in that defensive role of the right side to play. Carry me on. Thank you, Colin. 

Andy: No, I mean, I don’t. I don’t think anybody had a mare. And I thought, I thought Doucoure had run out of gas. 

George: half an hour too long. 

Andy: Yeah. He looked peppered at half time. But, you know, I mean, we’ve got to give credit where it’s due. Moysie had obviously got them revved up and ready to go out and play hard right from the off, which is something that we haven’t done for a long, long time.

And they got the just desserts. I mean, the first two goals were well made and well taken, both of them. Good feet from DCL, but for his goal and a terrific, terrific drop of the shoulder and bait from and die before sticking it in the top corner. That was a super goal. 

Yeah. And you know, at 3-0 at half time, we were good. We were very good value for that lead at half time. Very good value because bear in mind that DCL had had two other chances. Mangala had hit the post.

 And we played really, really well at 3-0. I don’t think it I don’t think it flattened everything at all. I suppose apart from the one chance, really, that or two chances that Son had, you know, I mean, the second one, he really should have, you know, you would have put you out, you would have put your mortgage on the score in the second one. And he didn’t. 

But I think that’s I think that’s I think that shows exactly where Spurs are at the moment. They’re there aside. They’ve got a lot of injuries. And they’re, they’re, they’re, they’re as low on confidence as we’ve been in recent weeks. And we caught them at exactly the right time and gave them exactly what they deserved to get, which was, you know, a sound, a sound hiding.It was just disappointing. 

The only disappointment, obviously, was that Spurs scored two goals late on to make the score line look respectable when it really shouldn’t have been it. You know, if we’re, if we’re unkind to Spurs, if we’d been five mill up at half time, they couldn’t have complained. But, you know, it’s not that greedy, but we were all fated. It’s Reno. 

George:Um. 

Andy: I said last week that Moisey wouldn’t have been my first choice and I hope he rammed every word back down my throat. Well, he said a half decent start, three points from six. So if he makes me eat some more humble pie, fair enough, I’ll eat it quite happily. 

Paul: Mm hmm. 

Andy: Thank you. 

Paul: George, thank you for that, Andy. 

Andy: Oh, my pleasure. 

George: I was a bit more concerned than Andy seems to have been. I’m sure he was at the time with the play that preceded them getting two goals. And I think it’s down to the fact that this is a squad of players who are not used to game managing games they’re winning because they for me got loads of points for A, not starting Ashley Young, not playing better, not playing Harrison. 

All those are good decisions.I think he should consider that Doucoure is an hour player now. And he should encourage him to run his legs off and get in everybody’s faces and annoy everybody and get on the end of things. He’s a box to box player and he could do all that stuff and then hook him. At 3-0 with an hour gone it was a perfect time for Moyes to have taken him off and put Armstrong on.

 It was a very different thing and Armstrong needs to learn because he’s young how physical the Premier League is. And against the Spurs team who were on the floor that would have been perfect. I thought that I disagreed with what he did there. He should have done that.

And the other thing that I said before the match and nothing in the match changed my mind about it is I think Patterson should be on the right side of midfield. He should be in front of whoever’s fullback be it Jake O’Brien who had an excellent game or actually Young if he knows if Seamus is out and he thinks Young is a better idea. But I think Patterson should be on the right side of midfield because he can tackle and he can get forward and he wants to get forward.

So when Lindstrom was taken off and my humble pie was on Lindstrom and I enjoyed every mouthful. He had an excellent game but when he was hooked I thought Patterson should have come on, not Ashley Young because Patterson is very similar to Lindstrom except he’s bigger, stronger and miles better in the tackle.

 But he doesn’t want to move forward. He does want to do all the things that Lindstrom did. So I think you know those are quibbles and then I did get worried with how sloppy Everton got and both goals were the result of sloppy defending and JP gets a bad mark for the goal. He should have come for that. I don’t know what he was doing watching that land at Richarlison’s feet. It’s crazy but that was mental. They wanted the game over and they got to learn how to manage those situations if we’re to really progress.

But obviously yeah it was a real pleasure to watch and DCL’s goal was just a joy. I was so thrilled for the boy and And as well you know, imagine if a United player had done that. It would have been on the 9 o’clock news and the 11 o’clock news. Anyway, pretty, good pretty good and you know it seemed pretty clear what Moyes had said to them why don’t you put the ball on the deck and pass it to each other instead of lumping it up the pitch and watching it go over your head and all the players seem to go that’s a good eye. Oh yeah we’re footballers oh wow yeah brilliant great. 

Andy: Well we said that didn’t we about the Peterborough game in the cup that clearly in you know in the short time that Baines he had with the squad he clearly told them no more this long ball nonsense keep it on the deck and they did I mean all right you know it was it was only Peterborough but it was a good opportunity to to reintroduce yourselves to a football and the fact that it will run for you along the deck if you hit it hard enough and you know but you know the seeing less long ball um is obviously pleasing because nobody in their right mind wants to watch long ball for 90 minutes you know every week it’s it’s tedious and it’s boring it might be effective every now and but it’s not a it’s not a long-term strategy for heaven’s sake um you know you know but but but all the hot air that’s spoken by a lot of fans about how bad various players are….

 I mean even you know even at weekend you know players are still getting pilloried you know what we have to remember is that all these guys have got more talent in their little finger than 99 percent of all the watching fans have got put together you know these guys are not stupid they know what they’re doing yes they make mistakes because they’re human um but I think with the kind of regime that Moyes will bring in he’ll gradually iron out those mistakes I’m sure this morning when when they’ve got together to assess what they did yesterday you know he will have said guys three nil at half time excellent well done but as you said Our kid you got sloppy and that’s what I’m training this week you are no longer going to be sloppy

 and I would imagine that they will tighten up even further I mean defensively we have been relatively sound all year you know we just the reason we’re down towards the nether end of the table is because we haven’t been able to score goals and win games well he’s he’s made a decent start on that with a you know with a three nil lead ultimately the three two win over Spurs you know I think if we can get in front in as many of the future games as possible I think Moyes will be working health or leather to clear up the sloppiness that we saw late on on Sunday and then if he can eradicate that then suddenly we become we become the Moyes, the Moyes side that we used to be which is very very difficult to break down and beat and hopefully when they get in front we’ll cut it we’ll close games out you’ll gain money better

George: Oh, what was your assault? 

Paul: I’m trying to restrain myself from going on a love in here with regards to David Moyes because given where we were and given where we are today, okay, you know, we’re still a long way from where we need to be and a long way from safety. 

I think what he’s achieved in a week or so with, you know, the same group of players that we had beforehand, amplifies two points.

 First of all, you know, what on earth would we be doing with Dyche for as long as we held Dyche because demonstrably now we can argue that he held the team back. And, you know, that’s our whole discussion itself, although it’s probably a fairly worthless discussion, except to academics of Dyche ball.But on the flip side, you know, he took a group of players that he being Moyes took a group of players who were short on confidence and probably not enjoying the football, not enjoying going to Goodison Park, not enjoying being an Everton player.

 And he just rolled back the years, really. And he produced, he got those players, he didn’t produce it, he got those players to produce a performance that would have sat in any of the performances that Moyes got other teams to perform more than a decade earlier. 

And OK, spurs and spurs probably were the ideal candidates for Moyes’ second game. But let’s take nothing away from what Moyes did tactically in terms of both his, you know, his choosing of the first 11 and what he did in terms of tactics and the individual players themselves. It was chalk and cheese from anything that we’ve seen for a couple of years at Goodison Park, certainly. And it just reminded me of actually sometimes everything can be a real joy to watch, even if we’re not the most successful football club, even if we haven’t won anything for 30 years.

 We as Evertonians love our club, and it made me understand to a degree not only why Evertonians love Everton, but why so many football fans around the country follow with the same intensity that we follow their clubs.And I’ve got little or no chance of winning anything. Absolutely love it when their teams play well. And it was a real refresher for me.

 It was a real sort of, I think like many Evertonians, and probably if we didn’t do this podcast and probably if I didn’t have, you know, stuff to write on social media from time to time, I would have found myself far more distant from Everton than I did find myself. 

But I can feel all of that coming back. I can feel how I used to feel about Everton under David Moyes when we were demonstrably under-resourced, but yet we were competitive. And we are not yet competitive by a long way. And I don’t think that we will be under-resourced going forwards. So just like reversal in that sense. 

But I’m getting that same sort of feeling. And I’m thinking, well, you know, we probably will see through the season. There may be ones who hiccups along the way, but we’ll see through the season and we will stay in the Premier League. I think the challenge for Moyes and the challenge for all Evertonians is to ensure not only do we stay in the Premier League, but we finish this season as high as we possibly can. 

Paul: So if we can sneak a top 10 position, not only does that help us financially, but it will help us in terms of recruiting whoever David Moyes wants to recruit in the summer.But it will also create a great platform for going into Bramley-Moore. For the like for an Everton side to be walking out at Bramley-Moore, because I’ve just completely dismissed it because of the short term problems that we’ve had. And not that I have any personal responsibility, but I feel like, and certainly at half time, God, if we’d done this podcast at half time, you’d have to. 

George: I thought about that, but why don’t we do a quick 15-minute one now? 

Paul: Go through the ceiling. But yeah, this is the Everton that I know and love and that I’ve always believed we could be. And I’ve been frustrated for many years, like the thousands of people who listen to this podcast will have been that we haven’t been able to do this.

And we’ve been able to do it because actually, we don’t have a massively competitive squad, but we have enough talent in a small number of individuals that when they’re all on their game, like they were on Saturday, for at least for 60 minutes, and we can talk about why we went on the game for 90 minutes if we want. 

We’ve got enough, you know, not only to survive in this league, but actually, you know, and it’s a long way to go. I don’t know when it’s only one result, but the evidence is there. The evidence was there against Aston Villa, as we talked about all, albeit it didn’t work out. And it was only, you know, it was clouded in a huge amount of post-19 uncertainty. We can do this. We can be a lot, we need to add, obviously, all around the squad, but we can be a much better football team than we are currently. 

And at least the first 45 minutes. And even Moyes saying that they came out in the beginning of the second half looking for the fourth goal. I think that was really telling. One demonstrates that, you know, maybe Moyes is like, removes some of the shackles that he imposed upon himself in previous days. But also, I think it reflects on maybe some of the uncertainties that he had, that he didn’t think a three goal lead was enough. 

And it almost proved the case that a three goal, you know, we almost proved the case that a three goal lead was not enough. And that’s obviously something that Moyes will hopefully try and address, either in a transfer window or tactically on in terms of personnel. But yeah, I’m, I’m absolutely thrilled if, you know, if you’d have told me a few months ago that A we’d have like completely sound owners, and I think they are completely sound owners, our finances would be relatively secure, that we would be relatively free of any PSR concerns. And we’d have David Moyes and, you know, other really sound people involved in running a football club. I’d have bitten your hand off. 

George: I’m going to ask a question. 

Paul: Please do. Before the love in carries on any longer. 

George: I really enjoyed it , it was good to hear. And you know, you’ve earned it. How much of the transfer window is left? And what do you imagine we might do in it? 

Paul: we’ve got till the third, I think it’s the third of February. I’ve got, I’ve really got no idea, George, to be honest.Yeah, I think I think we need both of you. Okay, well, let me answer personally, Andy can answer.

We need, you know, DCL played really well at the weekend and you know, the goal that he scored. Other than the time under Andrew Lottie, you can’t really dream of a scenario where he would score such a goal. So that was good, but that’s not enough. He needs competition and we also need somebody else in case, you know, he’s injured and sadly for Beto and sadly for the football club, given what we paid for him and Beto, I don’t think is necessarily the answer. So we need to find somebody even if it’s just on a short-term basis to cover DCL’s position. 

George: Or just two. Both of you sent me a text saying that we bought some dude for $17 million. Where’s he? 

Paul: I can’t remember sending you that text and I think I can remember Andy sending the text Andy over to you with the hospital pass. 

Andy: Well, I got a message from someone. I won’t go into detail as it was, but he was connecting. And he suggested to me that this Ghanaian was done dusting. 

Paul: Mm. 

George: And you both said the old thumbs up thing. Well, is it not true? It’s not happened. 

Andy: It doesn’t appear to be no. Right. Okay.

Because I actually, I actually messaged because obviously, you know, you know, I lived and worked in Ghana for a while. One of my neighbors, when I was in Ghana, is a former Ghanaian international. And I sent him a message the other night, asking him, is this, is this guy going to give us the pace that we desperately need? And hopefully bring us some goals. And it’s telling that he hasn’t got back to me, because I’m sure he would have got back to me had this deal been, you know, had it been going ahead. And he hasn’t gone back to me and I will chase you up. I don’t want to name who it is, because it’s not fair. But if he said, if he said this guy was the business, I’d check him at face value. Absolutely. 

George: OK, sorry. 

Andy: Back to me. So I don’t think that’s happening in terms of what I would like. Because as  said, you know, DCL needs competition. And I’m going to be probably pieing the sky, fanciful here. But as suggested, you know, that for all his effort and his honest endeavour, Beto doesn’t strike me as the player who’s going to provide the competition. I don’t think he brings enough to the team.I think possibly he might actually be a more natural finisher than DCL. 

There’s been instances when he’s got on the pitch and he’s had a couple of goals disallowed when he’s actually finished really well. His first touch in finishing appears a little bit more natural to me than it does with DCL. But DCL’s game is a much more rounded game than Beto’s got. He can run the channels, he can if necessary play wide. I don’t think Beto’s got that in his locker. So if there was an opportunity to move Beto on, which would obviously help his career as well, because his career isn’t going anywhere with Everton at the moment. Unless there’s an enormous change that suits him down to ground. I see his career stagnated. 

So to be fair to the player, it might be in his best interest to move on. We’re obviously going to lose money on the deal because we paid a ridiculous amount for him, which we’re not going to recoup. But if Brode is going back to Chelsea, that’s the end of his loan deal. So that would free up the space for a loan deal. If Harrison, Jack Harrison, if his loan deal could be curtailed, that would free up another one. And this is where it gets pie in the sky. I’d really like to see him really like to see us make a move to bring Harrison back on loan, because his career has gone down the toilet at Spurs.

 In my opinion, I think he’s wasted at Spurs. And you could just tell from, you know, from him, his walk round the pitch after the pregame warm up and his walk round the pitch at the end of the game. You know, he was saying his farewell to Goodison as a visiting player, he paid Lee still holds the club close to his heart. He’s doing nothing at Spurs. I don’t think you know, obviously, he’s had injury concerns, etc, etc. But I think if we could, if we could engineer a loan move to bring the shower some back to Goodison, if even if only for the rest of this season, I think he would. I think he would jump at it. I think it would double energize the fan base who clearly have got enormous respect for him. And that’s the that’s the pie in the sky move that I would try and engineer . If it was me that was in charge, I would do everything I could to get that like back at Goodison for the rest of this season. The fly in the open, of course, is Daniel Levy, who no doubt would be a complete pain in the ass if we did approach him. 

Paul: As much as I would love that to happen, Andy, the fact that Spurs are only four points ahead of us in the league suggests that Daniel Levy is not going to allow us to have that competitive advantage against them. But yeah, I mean, clearly. 

Andy: I did say it was pie in the sky and he’d be a pain in the ass, so I think I covered that. Yeah, no. 

Paul: I’m trying not to continue this idea that you and I are constantly in conflict, because we’re not. No, I just don’t think it’s going to happen.You know, I think seeing this is a bit like a girlfriend or a boyfriend that you let get away, you have regrets, but it’s not really. There’s not really a route back to it. 

Andy: In terms of options, I’m not. I’m not honestly sure what I said, you know, my first choice would be if we could do that, but if that’s not if that’s not going to happen, or is it would be beyond, you know, it would be on making it happen. I’m not quite sure.I haven’t. I haven’t given a great deal of thought as to who else I would like to bring in. 

George: What is the news on Chemitti’s injury? 

Paul: I don’t think there is any new news, to be honest. 

Andy: I thought he was supposed to be back in training, that was the last, I’m sure that was the last thing we had from Dyche that she met him with back training back on the grass. 

George: On grass, yeah. 

Andy: Well, it depends on the understanding of the turn back on the grass, really, but. 

Paul: I get the feeling that given the restraints of PSR are less than they were previously. Obviously, we’ve got owners now that have got the resources and the club is in a better financial position.I reckon if you were a fly on the wall between any meeting between David Moyes and the Friedkins, he would be saying, there’s not that many people who know the Premier League like I do. There’s not that many people who research, and I’m talking as a manager, not talking as a director of football, the game in the manner in which I do. I want to make a statement over the rest of this transfer window, and I want to bring into the body that will not only re-energise the football club in terms of providing resources and providing competition, but that everybody else around, you know, David Moyes is a highly competitive individual. 

Everybody else around recognize that David Moyes is back in business and back in business and everything. I would be amazed if he was to allow and not already have agreement in this transfer window to bring in somebody where everybody goes, oh, okay. That sounds interesting. I’ve got no idea, because I don’t follow football that closely enough. I follow Everton football, but I don’t really follow football. I’ve got no idea, George, to be honest. 

But I think Moyes will have somebody in mind, somebody up his sleeve, perhaps, that comes in and we all say, you name any one of the number of players that Moyes has brought in over the years, previous years when he was at Everton, that had an instant impact on the team and what would hope a longer-term impact. I get the feeling that Moyes, perhaps more than most people realize, had much of this planned before he actually got the gig. He’s the type of guy that would sit and think about, well, if I was to get the Everton gig at some point, and, you know, obviously all eyes were on Dyche and the chances of Dyche seeing the season through, seeing the transfer window through, just got less and less and less. 

David Moyes wasn’t sitting at home not planning this. And again, I apologize, this is not David Moyes’ love in. It’s just a recognition of, you know, that’s the type of guy that he is. And if it meant him travelling to some obscure football match somewhere to see somebody that he had an interest in as opposed to spending the evening at home with his wife and dogs, he would do it. And he would do it even if he didn’t actually get the Everton gig. He would have done it. And that’s the way that he’s been throughout his career. He’s not been at, I go home at three o’clock in the afternoon and training is finished. I’ll see you all in the morning. It’s like a guy, because he lives and breathes football. And if there’s an opportunity, if we’ve got the ability to do it, I think we have. I think you probably know who he wants to bring in. 

George: I usually was that what you just said is that coded? Do I translate that as we have got some money? Yeah, we’ve got one. 

Paul: And that’s the first time anybody listening to Talking to the Blues probably ever heard me say that. So let me repeat it. We can do business during this transfer window. And we will.We will. Absolutely we will. I’m convinced of it. 

Moyest will have a plan and we’ll do business. I mean, where does that puts the current director of football, who knows who cares, because in a sense that Moyes, you know, look back at the time when Moyes was manager, he was manager, stroke director of football in exactly the same way that Sir Alex Ferguson was at Manchester United. He ran the place. Moyes hasn’t come back at the same time and said, actually, I’m going to take best responsibility than I did the first time, especially knowing the state the football club was in and knowing that his reputation is at stake. 

He will have wanted even greater assurances from the Friedkins that he got from Bill Kenwright. Otherwise, he just wouldn’t have taken the gig. Why bother taking the gig? He just wouldn’t have done it. 

This is a guy who deeply protects his own reputation. And he knows that coming back to Everton is a relatively high risk thing for him to do, because he comes back and he fails. Well, he’s really got nowhere else to go after this. So he will have wanted to know and will have wanted to put in place all of the strategies that ensures, in his mind at least, that failure is not an option the second time back at Everton. And I’ve got full confidence that he will do it this window and he will do it again in the summer. That’s the most on-typical Talking the Blues speech you’ve ever heard from me, but there you go. 

George: Then I change the subject. 

Paul: Please do, because I’m quite embarrassed by what I’ve just said, but there you go. 

George: in the least bit embarrassed by what you just said. You’ve earned the right to say it.But I want to change a bit. Corners in the Premier League are now approaching fast. What, if anything, can be done about it and what should be done about it? I’m just going to talk as an Evertonian and it’s kind of cheating. 

Andy: You’re talking about, just to clarify, bro, you’re talking about wrestling. 

George: I’m talking about corners, Andy, you know what I’m talking about. Fifteen blokes, you know, I mean, yeah, we don’t need to describe it. Anybody listening to this to this podcast knows exactly what I’m talking about.So let’s just talk as Evertonians for a second, because that’s what every other fan does. In the match against Villa, we all saw DCL get manhandled, undressed and thrown on the floor before in the same movement. Jesper Lindstrom is pushed in the back as he goes for a header. Now, we all saw that. We all saw that because it was on the play, which means that it was on VAR. I can only assume now. That this is completely acceptable to the powers that run football, because that we do know now from what the Tottenham manager said after the Liverpool match. That football club managers are given heads up as to how the referees are going to behave as that. Is it that group called PGMOLl or something who decides how referees are going to behave? They’re going to let a load of things go. They’re going to play a lot more advantage. La la la la la la la la la la la. And Postig, I can’t say his name. Postig Oglod. M.E.S. 

He he said, I don’t mind all that, except we’re not getting the yellow cards we should get because they’re letting fouls go. Let’s let’s that’s a side issue. In that match, the VAR saw. Jesper Lindstrom clearly pushed in the back and. DCL thrown to the ground. Now, if they’re not going to do anything about it, then this chaos is just going to continue.It’s hard for me to imagine what the mindset is for people who’ve got the power to deal with this, looking at what goes on, and I watch the Arsenal, Aston Villa match, the corners were hilarious and never mind the amount of time that is wasted while, you know, the referee goes, you mustn’t do that. 

Don’t do that. And they all go, we wasn’t, I wasn’t, he was in me, it was me, all that. A lava and twaddle, which, you know, is kind of camp and exciting, sort of exciting to watch, you know, behaving badly. But is it really anything to do with sports or the fact that you paid to watch 90 minutes of football? I don’t think it is. And I think it’s time that they got hold of it. If they’ve got it because suddenly I realize what the advantage of VAR is, which is that you can set a standard with VAR, which then goes down the league. 

Frankly, two of the Aston Villa players could have been readied for that one single incident, and they should have. Footballers will cheat. Of course, they will. They will take any advantage they can get, though, just on five yards on the throw-in, I’ll just wait, won’t be in the quadrant. All that boring, dreary, childish shit that footballs get up to, but they can also be controlled. Like I said to you the other day, they don’t throw the ball away anymore because they know they’ll get booked. They don’t take shirts off by and large because they know they’ll get booked. So if you said to them, right, if you manhandle people in the penalty area, if you pulled somebody’s shirt, that’s a yellow card. 

George: If you do it twice, that’s a red card. It’s not going to take that many red cards.Maybe three or four in two weekends and all the football and and chaos that would descend from the media for the footballers to stop doing it, because people like David Moyes and whoever else you care to name would go, don’t be doing any of that. We’re not giving away because what should happen, what should happen? And VAR has the has the is the tool to use to do this because we can’t have that many, you know, we don’t have that many referees like unlike American football. The game was in terms of, you know, if the argument is but it’s dead exciting watching all that wrestling, it would only be equally exciting to football fans to see somebody red carded in a penalty at every corner, and that would stop fairly soon because managers would go, whoa, we’re not having that and stop that, stop that. And I think somehow I want to see whoever the powers that be address this issue because while it is camp and entertaining, it’s farcical. 

Andy: It’s not entertaining at all. I’m sorry, I disagree with that.It’s annoying, it’s boring, it’s against the laws of the game of football. So there’s no entertainment in watching a centre half and it doesn’t matter whether it’s Villa on us or it’s us on Villa. 

Gorge: Yeah. 

Andy: You know. 

George: of votes of time. 

Andy: Branthwaite throws someone to the ground, it’s equally as bad. In fact, it’s worse because we’re paying to watch them week in week out. 

Paul: Yeah. 

Andy: And I don’t want to see, I don’t want to, I’d far rather Jared Branthwaite and Tarkowski or any other player quite fairly and squarely dispossess and beat an opposition player to the ball and cleared it, you know, and then look at the other player and say, see, I don’t have to cheat to beat you, you’re last. And I’ve just shown you up. It’s abhorrent.It’s anti-football, all this wrestling, and it’s ridiculous that the referees don’t know anything about it. And then it’s compounded by the VAR people saying, no, nothing to see there. When it’s as clear as mud there is lots to see there. 

George: And why are they doing it, Andy? Why have we walked through it? 

Andy: I’ve got no idea. I don’t understand. I just can’t.You’re absolutely right. That one corner, DCL has his shirt pulled and he’s wrestled to the ground and Lindstrom is clearly pushed in the back, clearly pushed in the back. Both of those should have been a whistle for a penalty. 

George: No, and a red card, because it’s in the area, you’re stopping the goal-scoring opportunity. 

Paul: So it could be changed in an instant. The rules are very clear.

So VAR only comes into play on four separate circumstances. The legality of a goal, whether or not a penalty has occurred, red cards, and where something has happened, Werther’s mistaken identity. There are only four situations whereby VAR can intervene on a referee’s decision. If you added a fifth category, that said, and behavior in and around, or before, a deadball situation, then the situation would be resolved overnight. 

George: So why isn’t that happening, ? 

Paul: Because nobody’s lobbying for it, because nobody believes that they’ve got a competitive advantage to have that. 

George: Do that again. 

Paul: Nobody’s locked, none of the teams, none of the clubs are lobbying for it because they all believe at the moment they’re all equally culpable or equally advantaged by the situation as it is today.

Whereas if the Premier League came out and said actually what you’re doing here is destroying a fundamental part of the game, which is the defending team concedes a corner and therefore gives the attacking team an advantage and an opportunity to score a goal, we’re going to intervene and we’re going to intervene on the basis that whatever happens in the penalty area before a corner is taken, will be taken into consideration as for example a penalty or whatever, then do it. And as you say George, all of this would disappear overnight. 

George: It would. And what would suffer? That’s the bit I don’t understand , Andy. I don’t understand why nobody’s doing this because what would suffer?You know I was running a scenario in my head beforehand of shirt pulling which is driving me nuts. There’s nothing in the rule that says you can pull somebody’s shirt and yet how many times in any match do you see the referee let it go? Now somebody’s told him to let it go but if you stopped it if you said no, if you sorry if you pull somebody’s shirt that’s a yellow card and if you do it twice that’s a red then that’s gonna stop soon. I cannot for the life of me imagine any football fan anywhere on the planet going what you mean I’m going to the match and there’ll be no shirt pulling oh no not having that. I just don’t believe it. I don’t believe it at all. I think football fans because we are football fans because we could never as you were saying about the players Andy we could never do what they can do because we were called opposite football we loved it but we couldn’t do it. The idea that we would go and watch something that was fairer and had no cheating in it that I get the feeling somebody very powerful thinks that’s not not where we should be. 

Paul: Except there must come a point where somebody within the Premier League, which is a multi-billion pound industry, one of the UK’s greatest exporters, we struggle on that from an economic point of view elsewhere, turns round and says, actually, is what we’re allowing to happen beneficial to our game or not. And it just needs somebody with enough courage to stand up and ask that question.And, you know, I know from my own experience in terms of what I’ve done. Sometimes people, when they ask these fundamental questions, everything else gets lost because you say, actually, you’ve got a point because the game would be much better if we didn’t have any of this nonsense. And if that means that we end up scoring, you know, ends up being more, more goals in a Premier League game. 

George: Nobody’s going to complain about that. Who’s going to complain about that? Who’s going to complain about that? That’s why we come out of the house.To watch people stick the ball in the net. The best thing about Sunday was in day. Bollocks! 2-0! Come on! That’s what we come out of. 

Paul: Football fans historically cheer when there’s a corner. The fact is that less than 3% of corners result in a goal.Yeah, right. So there’s not a massive competitive advantage by gaining a corner other than the fact that you’ve retained possession and you haven’t given possession back to your position as you do with a goal kick. But what if actually getting a corner resulted in 10% of corners resulting in a goal? There would be far more goals scored in every game, which must be beneficial to if you view the Premier League for second and you view every game as a product, which is what the Premier League viewer has when they sell it to numerous broadcasters around the world. It seems like a very obvious thing to do. So why not do it? You can feel me shrugging my shoulders. 

Huh? Yeah. So rather than just having goals, penalties, red cards, mistaken identity, why not have the behaviour in and around the penalty area that results from a corner? 

George: I’ll do it tomorrow . It’s mental. 

Paul: kick. It could be any dead ball situation. It could be a throw-in. How much time is wasted over a throw-in because players should push the bundle of the ball, not be allowed to get into a position where they’re available to receive the ball, because it’s a dead ball situation.It’s one and the same thing. So perhaps it should be goals, penalties, red cards, mistaken identity, and dead ball situations. And then you get into the situation whereby actually having a dead ball coach makes much more difference because if you remove all of the cheating that goes on in dead ball situations, dead ball, dead balls become much more productive areas of the game because the chances of scoring from a dead ball situation in those situations increases. Why not do that? 

George: And if you tie out all that in with stopping the clock, so that all the muttering and this that the other and drawing lines and get back and that’s completely null and void got nothing to do with anything anymore that would all stop as well. Yeah, I think somebody has to try playing. I don’t know how you do it. I mean, it’s not the way things are done.But if you could have a trial match like a preseason match where you tried some of these things, but especially stopping the clock to see what happens, you know, I think the game would be improved. 

Andy: Well, the close season is the time to do it, because at the end of the season, there’s any number of clubs are going to fly off to far-flung places to play end-of-season wind down games, to appease sponsors and foreign supporter bases, etc., etc., and then you’ve got the pre-season tours. So, never mind training camps, but if pre-season games, if it was trial then, and if the post-season games and the pre-season games, they should trial it then. 

George: Yes, I agree. You know, it needs to be tried because it might be abolished, but I don’t think it would be. 

Andy: Well, you know, you end up with a pre-season game with a score line that ends up at 9-6. You know, the initial reaction will be, well, this is crazy.But then if you actually put it to the fans and say, did you enjoy seeing 15 goals? Or did you enjoy seeing, would you rather have, you know, WrestleMania? Adlai odds that football fans would say, no, no, let’s go with the goal option. 

George: But now you come to the other conundrum in here, which is how important are football fans? And I think in the mindset of the people who are making the decisions that we’re talking about, why don’t you change them? They go, oh, they’re just background noise. We proved it in COVID.We need them. Yeah, yeah, football’s miles better with them than without them. But, you know, then they’re only 20% of the income of any club. So don’t go mad. 

Andy: But if the funds aren’t important, why do teams fly off around the world at the end of the season? 

George: to sell shirts to the Asian market. 

Andy: Yeah, so we think more about selling a few shirts than we do about the integrity of the game. 

George: 100% Andy, that’s exactly what I’m talking about. Yes, we do. 

Paul: I think you make a really interesting point, both of you. I think how did you find what a football fan is? If I was CEO of a football club, I would define a fan of a football club as anybody who makes an attempt to go and watch the game. And that means in the stadium, if you’re lucky enough to live in the same country, or you’re lucky enough to get a ticket and can afford to fly in to watch a game, or indeed anybody who stands in a bar and says, I’ve gone to this bar because I want to watch Everton today, or indeed anybody who watches Everton or any other football club on any legal stream or illegal stream in some cases around the world. That’s what a football fan is.You follow football through whatever means is either most available or most appropriate to your financial circumstances. And you’re absolutely right. If we should make the game, football is probably the only game, yet it is still the most successful game. It actually makes it more difficult to be a truly attractive proposition. It doesn’t make any sense. 

George: I don’t think so, no. 

Andy: That is belief as well. I mean, we’re having this discussion here now about cleaning up the game, getting rid of the wrestling, the shirt pulling, the time wasting that, you know. 

George: Choose the shittiest M.D. It’s… 

Andy: No, no, what I’m coming to, what I’m coming to an arc, is there are numerous sports programme, particularly football programmes on TV and radio endlessly in some areas. And it just makes me wonder why don’t all these presenters and pundits who’ve got far bigger audiences than even we have. 

Paul: Mm hmm. 

Andy: Why aren’t some of those in particular former players? I know. Why aren’t they having these discussions and having them publicly? 

George: I have no idea, Andy, but I wish we would. 

Andy: you know, in respect to what we feel about any of them individually, the likes of Lineker, Shearer, Neville, Carragher whose participation on Sky of the Weekend was deplorable, by the way. 

George: You didn’t have to listen to Jim Beglin. 

Andy: But all these guys have got huge audiences, massive audiences, and why aren’t they discussing it? Why aren’t they bringing, you know, they’ve gotten far more inroads into the powers that they either will ever have. 

George: And they know the game much more intimately than we do. I think you’ve nailed this. I think we simply have to ask them. They must be approachable. They’re all on social media, aren’t they? 

Andy: Here’s the thing, I mean, Lineker’s quitting match of the day, all right, and he’s being replaced by Mark Chapman, um, Gabby, you know, Terry Yorath’s daughter, and, yeah, and, um, Dalgish’s daughter. 

George: Right. 

Andy: There’s a triumvirate there that’s taking up what, you know, all right. They are, unlike Shearer and Lineker and Colt, they haven’t played the game. But they’ve got the gig now to present arguably the biggest football programme on British TV, arguably. So, why, when they when they’ve got players on to do the the punditry and the boring things that we don’t actually need to see of them drawing lines on the TV screen after we’ve watched five minutes of highlights, you know, why aren’t they asking them?You know, they’ve got, you know, it’s a new, if you like, a new era coming from after the day. Why doesn’t Chapman start it off by saying, why can’t the game clean itself up? You know, I just don’t understand why the people in the game can’t see it. 

Why aren’t the managers, you know, the managers get together every now and again to discuss the game. Why aren’t the managers saying, right, guys, we need to come together on this. And then we need to approach the professional game management organised whatever they are, game officials limited to say, right, we need you to put a stop to our players acting like dicks. We’ll tell them in training. But it’ll, some of it will go in and sync some of it will go in one ear and out the other. So the only way for it to actually sync is for you guys to start yellow card in and red card in. And if we end up at six aside, so be it, because the next game will finish up at 11 aside, because nobody will put our place. 

George: 100% that’s correct. The football managers are the biggest bunch of hypocrites in the game. I think it was you  who said that Dave Brailsford who’s something to do with Manchester United and said publicly, any advantage five yards at a throw in, two yards at a free kick, put the ball outside the quadrant, waste three seconds coming up, any advantage will add up and eventually will pay off. That was his philosophy in a nutshell I think.And the other day, I think I said this to you before, but it’s the best example because he’s clearly, you know, Mr Slott is clearly a bit of a dude. 

They’re playing Leicester, Leicester score in the first six minutes. Now, Leicester, Anfield and they’re defending in front of the card and they don’t think they can probably make it for 90 minutes. So after about 30 minutes they really start wasting time. They’re rolling around, one guy does the complete clowny thing where he goes, oh I’m injured, oh bollocks, I’ve stepped off the pitch, he rolls back on the pitch, all that.

 And Slott is not losing his hair but he’s going mental at the fourth official. And I watched him and I knew why he was going mental and I thought, no, you hypocrites, if you are not prepared to back a movement that says stop the clock, you have no right to get ratty when other teams do what your players do and all players do. 

Andy: Mm hmm. 

George: somewhere along the line, and what you said is sadly probably right, , that somebody with some courage has got to stand up and go, come on, we can do better than this, can’t we? 

Paul: And I think the reason why people don’t do that is that what we’re talking about here, be it the managers, be it players, be it agents, be it, you know, whoever involved in the game, be it the presenters, the executives within the BBC, Sky, BT Sport, whatever they call today, etc. They’re all takers from the game.They’re not contributors to the game. They’re takers. And they see a situation where the game is awash with cash. And they think, all I need to do is just participate whatever their role is in the game and participate in this like honey jar, this, you know, this

George: I think you’re 100% right. And it pains me to say that because I, my, my way of expressing what you’ve just said is we are as corrupt as the game we’re supporting. Yeah, they’re not getting is do they really think there would be one penny less cash if the game itself had a bit of pride in itself. If the answer to that is yes, we do, then I’m giving it up tiddlywinks.Here I come. I don’t believe it. I will not believe it. I think you’re 100% right. I think that’s exactly right. They’re all users and takers. You know, I was, you know, the fact that Saudi Arabia has got the next global circus is, you know, visible, ludicrous. But it’s happening. I don’t care. I don’t care. I care about the game. I care about the game, because I’ve got two grandchildren who play it.I don’t want them watching, chirping stat balls, not in the quadrant advantage. Well done, Dave Brailsford. For goodness sake, grow up. Football, be men, be adults. There’s no need for it. It’s pathetic. Told her. Told her, Andrew, yes. 

Paul: Nobody has the courage nor anybody has the incentive to raise those questions because everybody within the game and anybody who takes an income from the game are just massive beneficiaries of this environment because football is the global sport and people throw money at the game. 

George: But , seriously darling, you’re a deep thinker about this game. Would money be lost if the game was without cheating? 

Paul: No, because I think it would be a much better game. And I think, you know, I mean, being a bit idealistic here, but if you actually extol them, you know, the virtues of honesty, integrity, and all of those type of things, as against cheating, and sort of, you know, gaining marginal gains here, there, and everywhere. And you’d actually be a much greater force for good than you are currently.But football doesn’t see itself in that role, because everybody who’s involved in football, everybody who runs football, and be it from like junior club level, all the way through the FIFA, just looks at what competitive advantage can I gain from the situation as it is. And nobody actually gives them any consideration at all to, you know, ultimately, what is it we’re selling here? What is it? Football is anyway.

 It’d be a fascinating conversation just to have an hour on that. But yeah. 

George: Well, I think it would be, yeah, we’ve had that conversation quite a few times, we need to bring in somebody who can inform us. You know, but whether it’s Gary Lineker, or Alan Shearer, or Daniel Levy, or Arnie Slott, somebody we need to get hold of somebody who, from inside the game, whether they’re a participant in it now, or to ruin his phone number, he’d come and talk to us. 

Andy: I tell you, the person we really need to get on board with this and who people would listen to, it pains me to say this, it’s Ferguson. 

Paul: That’s a really interesting thought. 

Andy: I don’t mean Duncan, I mean Sir Alex. 

George: getting both that’d be fun um yeah well 

Andy: He’s probably the one person who could take these arguments and put them forward in such a way as that the game would listen. 

George: Right. OK. 

Andy: So we need to get his phone number. 

Paul: uh that’s not that’s all makes challenge yeah right okay 

Andy: Invite him on, Invite him on Talking the Blues. 

Paul: Yeah, I haven’t got the phone number of many people like Alex Ferguson’s phone number is an interesting challenge. Let’s see what happens.But let’s just finish on from a totally Everton-centric point of view. And we’re in a much better place in the second week or third week of January than we ever thought we might be. And let’s hope it continues. And Brighton is

George: Yeah. Wow. That’s a serious game of football. 

Paul: be almost the clash of that modern football against slightly less than modern football because I think you could argue strongly that David Moyes is presenting slightly less than modern football. 

Andy: like this. If Brighton are born with modern football, then Moyes used traditional football and what we had before was Neanderthal football, dinosaur football. 

Paul: Yeah. 

Andy: Being traditional is against dinosaur is a massive improvement. 

Paul: Yeah, I have to agree with that. Anyway, there we go. Alright, guys, thank you so much.We never plan these discussions and they go off in different directions. So hopefully, it’s interesting to the people that listen or read our stuff, as it is to the three of us who have the privilege of talking to each other. So thank you both. Yes, mate. Always a pleasure. 

Andy: Yeah. 

Paul: Thank you, everybody who listens and yeah. 

George: Well, that’s going to stuff Brighton. 

Paul: Yeah, well, for all those that believe I don’t go to games, I’m actually going to the Brighton game myself, so they… 

George: Get us a Pro-E. 

Paul: George, Andy, thank you so much. Thank you to everybody for listening and we will soon. peak to you soon!