Paul: 

Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, depending upon where in the world you are, and what time of the day you’re listening to this episode of Talking the Blues.

 Sadly, it’s an Everton free weekend on what is the fifth round of the FA Cup this weekend? 

George & Andy:

Fifth round, yeah. 

Paul:

Fifth round of the FA Cup. Yeah. Hopefully that’s not something that we would be able to say in future editions of Talking the Blues next year and beyond.

George, how are you both? 

George:

All right, man. Yeah, pretty good. 

Paul:

Have you enjoyed the, even though it’s an Everton free weekend, and obviously we only played a few days ago and we’ll get into the Brentford game in a couple of minutes, but have you enjoyed the Everton free weekend? 

Andy: 

Well, that is what you’ve been playing in the FA Cup. 

Paul: 

I, I, my mind is cast back to all of those weekends when we didn’t have a game, went to, went to Sean Dyche, who was manager, and we used to say, oh, thank God, everything’s not playing this weekend. 

Andy: 

And no, certainly not that kind of feeling, but obviously, you know, you know, everyone would have liked to have been involved in the court, but it wasn’t to be. Yeah, I watched a little bit of it.

Well, I watched most of the Palace Millwall game, some of the Preston Burnley game, that’s when we were really, the bits I saw that were really good. 

And Preston thoroughly deserved to thump Burnley, who made it through to the quarter final for the first time since 1966. He said on the commentary, Preston will be cock-a-hoop in a few weeks. That’s what they said, it’s the first time Preston has made the quarter final since 1966. 59 years. Yeah. 

George: 

That’s incredible. Howard Kendall played for them then. That was 64. 

Andy: 

When in 1964, he played against West Ham, wasn’t it? 

George: 

Youngest player ever to play at Wembley that day, yeah. 

Andy: 

I mean, like I said, I watched, I saw the highlights of the first half and I saw quite a bit of the second half. And I have to say, considering that Burnley are pushing for promotion, they got a bit of a run around from Preston yesterday. 

They look very impressive.You know, and it was a fucking atmosphere as well. How bad? Yeah, you know, I mean, it’s a, it’s the old one, the old one. It was a, it was a fucking atmosphere. I mean, it’s scored a really, a pinch of a free kick, 

John, Robbie, but anyway, they scored a great free kick and then they got a second before half time with a really good through ball through the middle of the Burnley defence and the guy ran onto it and slotted it away. 

And then the third goal in the second half was a long ball from the right side of the defence to the left wing, you know, an instant, instant cross low into the area and a terrific finish and will show you the influence of lower league football when you don’t watch it very often. 

But it was, there were three really, really good goals, really well, you know, the free kick was superb and the two goals from all the play were really well constructed and well taken.So, yeah, it was, to watch it as a neutral, it was a really good watch. 

Paul: 

Wasn’t there a controversy before the game with one of the Preston players, the Burnley players refused to shake his hand. 

Andy: 

They only read a little bit about that but I didn’t see that Paull because I didn’t see the start of the game so I’m not sure what happened. 

Paul: 

for alleged racist behaviour in a previous game. 

Andy: 

You know, terrific. 

Paul: 

As I say, it was alleged behaviour, but anyway, I suppose we should leave that one there. Talking of local Derbies, what about Crystal Palace v Millwall? 

Andy: 

Well, the big talking point from that, obviously, was the incident where the goalie, the Millwall goalie, came off his line and why on earth he had his feet up that high, I don’t know, but he caught Mateta on the side of the head and he was taken to hospital after about 10 minutes of getting treatment on the pitch, hanging up with 25 or 26 stickies in the side of his head.

 And bizarrely, Michael Oliver, the referee, waited until VAR called him to look at the screen to make a decision on whether the goalie should be sent off.

I mean, it was an unbelievable challenge. Just, you couldn’t believe what you were watching. Why, why the goalie came, not only why did he come hearing off his line like that, but why on earth did he bleed with his feet? 

I mean, that Mateta’s like six foot two. And he caught him clean on the side of the head, it was insane. I’m surprised the goalie just didn’t kind of hold his hands up and say, I know I’m not going to survive this, I might as well just walk straight off. 

Paul: 

So what was he sent off or was he just yellow carded? 

Andy: 

He was sent off and quite rightly so but the bizarre thing was that every man and his dog knew that he was going to get a red card but Oliver had to go over and look at it on the screen 

George: 

Is that part of the VAR protocol? 

Andy: 

Well, what got me was why on earth Oliver couldn’t show him the red card first of all and then if he felt he had to look at a replay. 

George: 

Good point. 

Andy: 

You know, the guy’s got his foot up at 6ft high in the air and catches Matata on the side of the head. What isn’t a red card in that for heaven’s sake? 

Paul: 

I suppose the other interesting aspect of that George, I hope you are sitting down for this bit, but had that happened in the third or fourth round, there would have been no VAR. 

Andy: 

VAR, yeah. The VAR has only come in, in this round. My name. Well, I mean, it was just, I mean, thankfully, you know, it didn’t, if you like, it didn’t spoil the game.

 But it just struck me as, you know, Michael Oliver is, you know, reputed to be one of the, one of the better referees in this country. And I just couldn’t understand why he felt he couldn’t or why he didn’t give a red card immediately, you know, put a foot that high, making contact, you know, he’d only has to be knee high. It doesn’t even have to be knee high, it could be shin high, you know, it would have been over the ball. 

Paul: 

Well, that’s very reckless, isn’t it? I mean, that’s it, that’s it, that’s it.

Sure as hell with reckless. So if you’ve got your foot ahead high and somebody’s like six foot three or whatever, I think that in any definition, that’s reckless. 

Andy: 

without a shadow of a doubt, but I don’t think it’s done Michael Oliver any favors, to be honest.I mean, like I said, thankfully, the game didn’t descend into lunacy in any way, shape or form, because it would be very… It’s not been on a park pitch, if you like, in Sunday League football.

 No matter if the player’s looking for retribution, thankfully, it didn’t descend into any of that. But, you know, the game itself carried on as normal once, you know, Millwall had made a substitute on. 

Paul: 

How did it compare to Schumacher’s tackle in the 1980s with Patrick Patteston? 

Andy: 

Yeah, to be honest, I thought the Schumacher was, I don’t want to use the word premeditated, but there was, I don’t think there was, I think there was less intent in his challenge to get the ball than there was in the Millwall keepers today. I think he did try and go for the ball, but there’s no excuse for having your foot that high, especially when he can use his hands to heaven’s sake.

He’s a goalie. You know, but I mean, certainly that was the immediate thing that sprang to my mind is, have I ever seen a challenge as bad as that? And the answer was yes, the one between Germany and France in the World Cup. But I mean, it’s not a challenge. You want to, you want to see it at full speed. It wasn’t good at all. 

Paul: 

I believe just reading a couple of reports that the Millwall supporters were naturally very sympathetic to the Palace keeper. 

Andy: 

Well, I mean, the less said about the world fans, the better, really, you know, importantly, you know, they’ve all had a bad reputation, and they just piled it on themselves yesterday, with their disgusting reaction to that injury. It was vile.

Absolutely vile. Wow. I mean, I just beg his belief that, you know, the players of Millwall Football Club, the officials of Millwall Football Club, the directors of Millwall Football Club, and continue to put up with the kind of nonsense that that fan base or sections of that fan base, I’m sure it’s not all of them, but he had got it. 

I think they said there was a little, they said there were somewhere like three and a half thousand of them there yesterday. And, and it was clear as clear as a bell on the TV coverage, what they were chanted. Don’t believe my tater. And it was disgusting. Absolutely reprehensible. Over the years, they’ve been a shocking fan base, or sections of them have been a shocking fan base. And they have done absolutely nothing but bring more disgrace on themselves.

 And they seem to enjoy it. I don’t, I don’t get it. And if there’s any Millwall fans listening, you know, if you were part of that, you should be ashamed of yourself. And if you weren’t part of it, then you should do something about it. The club, I think Millwall Football Club need to do something to address their fan base. 

I remember many, many years ago, when Frank O’Farrell was manager at Man United. And he actually lived right up right across the road from the school I attended. That’s how long ago it was. And the Stretford End United used to have a chant, which included some profanities, should we say.

 And Frank O’Farrell wrote in his programme notes, and I’ll never forget this, Frankl wrote in his programme notes that he wished the Stretford End would cease to chant to sing this particular song. If they had to sing that particular song, then replace the offending word with the word football, because it was, you know, getting off the football pitch was what O’Farrell wanted. And they did. They reacted, the manager put it in his programme notes, I’ll never forget it. And they actually did respond and change the wording of that chant. And you think

George: 

But if he did it with the swearing, please, gentlemen. 

Andy: 

Yeah. And I just think that in this day and age, it’s not just this day and age, any day and age, you know, I think Millwall Football Club, and the people that own and run Millwall Football Club, need to disassociate themselves from sections of that fanbase and do something about it.You know, absolutely anyone, you know, video or known to be involved in that channel yesterday, should be life banned from that Football Club. 

Because, you know, it’s the first, I mean, it doesn’t matter what you’re talking about, you could be talking about anything, commerce, business, anything, not sport, but the moment the name Millwall or the word Millwall gets mentioned, a lot of people immediately think of, you know, an absolutely disgraceful set of football fans. And that’s not fair on the community of Millwall, and it’s certainly not fair on the good people who support Millwall Football Club, of which there are probably very many. But as always, it’s the minority that spoils it for the rest. 

George: 

plan to. 

Andy: 

You know, he wants to say, you know, it’s not just all football clubs, you know, and including, you know, we’ve got to be fair, we’ve got to include everything in this as well. Every football club has got a section of their fan base. 

George: 

That’s racist. 

Andy: 

Well, whether it’s racist, whatever, sexist, racist, you know, it’s, it will probably never, ever be eradicated totally. But something needs to be done somewhere down the line, you know, to try and to reduce it and hopefully eradicate it.It’s just ridiculous. 

Paul: 

I always find it really interesting and you make some interesting points there, Andy. Millwall is owned by a US family that has like its own investment fund, not too dissimilar from ever since current ownership or in the Liverpool’s existing ownership, albeit on a much smaller scale.

And I know through my time in the US, when you read about them, given the scale of the investment, they’re actually quite prominent in the US. They often talk about our use and about, you know, football being a community game. And they talk about, and it’s maybe something that we can talk about another time, but they talk about their relationship with their Lewisham council, which is obviously their local council. And Lewisham to own the land upon which the new den is sat on, and Lewisham council gave them a 999 year lease and how great that relationship was and how much good they could do for the local community in terms of, you know, kids and developments and this, that and the other.Yeah, you get nonsense like this seems very odd. 

Andy: 

I’m going to go….. 

George: 

Red card is in the Newcastle Brighton match so say again bro Anthony Gordon you remember him and yeah 

Andy: 

Yeah. 

George: 

just been red carded in the Newcastle Brighton match. 

Andy: 

Oh dear. 

George: 

Took a swing at somebody, balls stopped, you know, utterly bonkers, offside, whistles gone. And then the petulance, he just twats this bloke and the bloke’s gone down like a sack of potatoes, of course. And off he goes. 

Andy: 

Oh, wow. 

Paul: 

And I thought we’d have nothing to talk about. 

Andy: 

And we haven’t even got to the Everton-Brenford draw yet. 

Paul: 

Well, yeah, since we last spoke, which I think is about a week ago, or six days, six to seven days. And yeah, we went down to benefit and we, but we maintained our run of games without defeat, and we drew one one.

And just before we started the podcast, I just looked back on the little WhatsApp group that the three of us have. 

And Andy, in particular, if you don’t mind me saying so, you were not overly thrilled with Mr. Moyse’s approach to the game. 

Andy: 

I want to. 

Paul: 

I don’t want to put you on the spot. 

Andy: 

No, no, don’t worry about it, you know, because I’ll be honest, you know, I’ve been pleasantly surprised. Well, I’ve been more than pleasantly surprised.I’ve been absolutely delighted about the way that David Moyes has returned to Everton. But there were times at Brentford when I felt we got the David Moyes of 15 years ago. 

Paul: 

I was hoping somewhere that you’d written Dithering Dave, but you didn’t. 

Andy: 

Well, no, I never like calling him Dithering Dave, but because, I mean, in respect to this timing of substitutions, yes, he does tend to dither a bit. And I think he was, I thought he was inordinately slow again on Wednesday with making his changes. 

I would have brought Tim on a lot earlier than he did. But that’s just me.I wouldn’t say Brentford were there for the taking, but I was expecting a lot more from Brentford and I didn’t see it. 

And I think that gave Everton the chance to think, hang on a minute, these aren’t as good as people have made them out to be. And I thought we could have got at them a lot more and a lot quicker than we actually did. 

Before we get onto Beto and the chances that he didn’t take, coming into half time, nil, nil, you’re thinking, right, okay, nil, nil. And let’s have a serious word in the dressing room at half time and let’s come out and get at it. 

And then we can see the goal just before half time and you think, oh no. And I was really, really hoping that, I mean, you would expect him to have been pretty furious about conceding that goal. And I thought he’s going to go in there, he’s not going to be hairdressing, hairdryer treatment or throwing teacups around or anything like that.

 But you think he’s going to go in there and maybe have some serious words about the nature of conceding the goal. And I thought we’d make changes at half time. And when the same team came out at the start of the second half, I’ve got to be honest, I was disappointed.

And that was when I started to think, hang on a minute, this is, you know, is this the David Moyes that we feared prior to him coming back that we were going to get? He’s not going to be, for want of a better word, adventurous. But I mean, in the end, you know, we got the draw and it was a good goal. And you have to, and this is where I will give him a bit of credit, because the goal came from an excellent cross from Mykolenko and a peach of a header from Jake O’Brien.

 These are the two players he’s, you know, he’s got playing at left back and right back, who since he’s arrived, as against the previous manager, are playing with a lot more freedom and getting forward and contributing more offensively. And, you know, Mykolenko, since the return of Moyes, looks a different player than on the dice, where it was obviously telling him not to go, not to go wandering forward to stick to his defensive duties. And O’Brien goes trundling forward with gay abandon almost at times. Good point. Yeah. 

And so, you know, I give Moyes a lot of credit for that, that he’s encouraging those two to play a bit more adventurously. And the fact that those two made and scored the goal is a huge tick in the box.And so in the end, you know, obviously, I was pleased with the point. And, and it may be, you know, but for some, a couple of good saves by the Brentford keeper, and maybe slightly better finishing from Beto, it could have been a whole different kettle of fish. 

Andy: 

And, you know, when, you know, with the form he’s shown in the last few games, you would have been tempted to say you put your mortgage on Beto scoring at least one of the two clearer chances that he had. I mean, he had three in the game, really.

 And I had this discussion with somebody who was actually at the game, and it was text to me coming back from Brentford on the first morning. And I said, you’ve got to give the keeper credit. Yes, he could have done better. Beto, certainly with the first finish, I think he could have done better. 

The one in the second half where he tried to bend it round the keeper, the keeper made a good save away to his left-hand side. But the encouraging thing for me is that Beto, you could see with each chance as he’s kind of chastising himself, you could see it in his face that he’s thinking I should have done better with that. I’ve got to do better the next time. And he doesn’t let his head drop. It would have been very easy after those first two chances in the first half, particularly the second one, when he could maybe have gone round the goalie, or he could maybe chipped it over him, or he could have just blasted it. 

And I think, to be fair to the guy, he scored four or five goals recently, and it just didn’t work for him on Wednesday night.But he didn’t let his head drop, and he put in another excellent shift, playing up front. And at times, in the first half, he looked isolated. And I think I said it to you, Arkid, in a text message.

 I think he missed the presence of Doucoure more than the team missed the presence of Doucoure on Wednesday night. I think Doucoure, particularly in the game against United, Doucoure gave him the support that I think he possibly needs. And of course, it wasn’t there on Wednesday because Doucoure was elsewhere, because he’s, I believe his message was having a baby. 

And I think at times, to me, particularly in the first half, I thought he looked a little bit isolated, but he didn’t. The big thing in his favor, and I give him enormous credit for this, is he doesn’t let his head drop, and he gets back to work. I mean, he has got an excellent work ethic, and I’ll give that to all that. I’ve been critical of him in the past, but he is growing on me big time. Bro, do you watch this? 

George: 

in it. 

Paul: 

Hello? Georgie, you’re there. 

George: 

Yeah, I am there. No, I thought you should. Paul, what did you think? 

Paul: 

Well, I wasn’t there, unfortunately, because I couldn’t, I was in London, but I couldn’t get a ticket for the game. So I actually decided to go with some friends to watch the England lionesses play Spain, which is maybe we’ll talk about that in a little bit.

So I have I’ve only caught the highlights package. So I probably can’t say anything with any great authority, but I often do anyway, with regards to how we played against Brentford. 

George: 

It’s interesting what Andy’s saying about O’Brien and Mykolenko, and certainly O’Brien is a big plus, a very, you know, I don’t really want to talk about Deutsch anymore, any more than I want to ever talk about Allardyce or Benitez or any of those, Foldy Arms, Frank. 

But I think that Moyes has a track record of improving defenders, because he understands the position completely. And he’s lucky. I mean, I think he must think, what on earth were they thinking, not picking this boy? He’s quick, he’s got two feet, and he can play almost anywhere on the pitch. And the goal was beautifully taken, and he was dead cool about it afterwards. So, you know, those are all pluses.That was always the case with Moyes, all the way through his career at Everton, all the defenders he picked improved, got better. Les Scott was the best example, you know, just got better and better and better. It’s at the other end of the doings that you, you know, the problems start, because he doesn’t, I don’t think he really understands that side of it that well. 

And, you know, I’m with an, I’m, I was sort of, I didn’t know that Mrs. Doucoure was having a baby, and good luck to her, and I hope it’s all arrived safely and everything. But I’m sure we’ll see Decore back when we play Wolves, because, maybe you’re right, Andy, maybe Beto does need him. 

I don’t. And the reason I don’t, I don’t mean to be nasty. But what I took out of the Brentford match was, which I kind of enjoyed as a, as a, as a game of football, is that to compete at that level, where we want to be at the very top end of the Premiership, you’ve got to have 10 outfield players who can kill everything immediately, and pass both sides, both ways, both feet immediately. And I would say we’ve got maybe half a dozen at best, at the moment. And that’s that rebuilding of that kind of quality. 

And that’s why Doucore is always a disappointment to me, because, you know, for all his effort and the goal against United, I could have kissed him, and I would if he was here. He can’t control the ball. So attacks, as they did against Brentford, break down too often, far too often, because Everton, the top end of the pitch, are not good enough at holding the ball. And that’s why I completely agree with you, Andy, that Tim is an essential part of the new Everton, because he is a good first touch player, and we need it. We need it desperately. 

Paul: 

But isn’t that a reflection of the quality of the squad because of financial problems that we’ve had? 

George: 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely. We all know the reasons why it looks like that. I’m just, you know, that’s what I took out of that matchup.I was surprised, first of all, by how quick three of the Brentford players were. Blimey, they’re mustard those guys.

 They were quick. That’s important in a football team to have killer pace. Anybody with killer pace, I’ll push the ball past you and run, and you are not going to see me? No, we don’t. Well, it’s in date. 

Andy: 

That is Indian. 

George: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Paul: 

But isn’t this the big opportunity that the club is now presented with over the summer? 

George: 

He steadies the ship. We’re not going to sink. They can find quality players if they can attract them. 

Paul: 

Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, we’ve got to identify them. And then obviously, secondly, we’ve got to attract them.But I think this is the big opportunity for Moyes and for everything football club going forwards. And if I can throw something else into the equation, it is, of course, that we’ve decided that we’re no longer going to retain the services of our director of football. 

George: 

Yeah. I heard that. Show me about that. 

Paul: 

Well, quite simply, his contract runs out at the end of June, 30th of June this year, and it won’t be renewed. So I guess that poses two questions.One, did we wish to retain the director of football model, but we felt that Kevin Thelwell was not the right person?

 Or two, because we brought David Moyes in, and David Moyes says, actually, this is my responsibility. We don’t need to have a director of football. 

That doesn’t mean to say that we don’t need to have somebody else looking after all of the other aspects of football within the organisation, because I think clearly we do. But we don’t need a director of football who’s responsible for recruitment. 

Andy: 

If we’re going to have a director of football, it’s more important that we’re doing somebody who can revamp and redevelop the academy. 

Paul: 

Well, I think, I think this is where, you know, we’ve talked about this before. And I know, I’ve seen it in the media a little bit in recent days.

This is where perhaps somebody like David Weir comes in, who actually would come in as a technical director as against a director of football. Yeah. And I think, you know, a director of football has overall responsibility for all footballing aspects, including the first team. So that would obviously include recruitment, it would include coaching, it would include scouting, and it would include development of players throughout the academy. I think there are question marks that Thelwell probably couldn’t answer, although in a minute, I’m going to go through some of the people that we’ve brought into the club in recent years, which is sort of contrary to the idea that Thelwell didn’t do a good job. 

Perhaps it might be the case that Thelwell wanted to have that broad responsibility, including recruitment. But Moyes has said, actually, no, if I’ve got the responsibility for the first team, I want to have responsibility for the first team recruitment, except entirely and Moyes would accept entirely that the modern role of management across football is much too demanding to be responsible for the academy to be responsible for scouting or to be responsible for player development outside the first 11 or outside the first 11, outside the first team playing squad, which is where you get them to become, you know, to looking for a technical director as against a director of football. 

So I find it really, really, really interesting. And I think if the analysis and, you know, there are different views, but if the analysis is that Kevin Thelwell has been fired because of his recruitment, for example, then I think that’s actually the wrong analysis. 

Andy: 

I mean, to be fair to the guy, I think, you know, under the previous regime, he was working with perhaps the one hand tag behind his back as well, but… 

Paul: 

About who’s been responsible for the recruitment. If you just run through the list of players that have come in, obviously lots and lots of players have left the club and some players have had to leave the club because of our financial circumstances.And obviously the people that we brought into the club, largely driven by our finances. 

But Tarkovsky, McNeil, now you can argue with both of those. James Garner has come back into the club. Danjuma, question mark, obviously, and Dine. I don’t think there’s any question mark over the value of him coming into the club. Onana has come into the club in the period that Thelwell was here, obviously subsequently left. But there’s no doubt in his quality as a player, even if he didn’t quite make it as ever since for probably the reason being his relationship with the previous manager. 

Then there’s question marks. Connor Cody, for example, was that a great signing? 

Maupay came in, obviously, under the fellow that said about him, obviously. People that came in on loan, was it Vinagre? Didn’t really do anything.

But then, is it right to say every single one has got to be a fantastic recruitment decision? Probably not. 

Andy: 

O’Brien was a Thelwell signing . 

Paul: 

And just running, running through the list, you’ve got Timothy, who’s obviously yet to be proven. So who’s now, I think, proving himself.Harrison came in under, you know, in the period that Thelwell was here.

 And then you’ve got Alcorez, obviously, when you got Mangala, you got O’Brien, as you just identified, you got Lindstrom, you got Tim. 

Andy: 

Agreed. 

Paul: 

He needs to have a job just giving his name, Andy. 

Andy: 

Found my station in life. 

Paul: 

Yeah. And then, you know, on the flip side, you’ve got somebody like Broja. So I think as is the case with all recruitment decisions, if let’s say you’re getting seven out of 10, right, then I think you’re doing an exceptional job. 

If they all get seven out of 10, right, it’d be an interesting analysis. I’m not proposing to do that now. But I’m just saying it would be an interesting analysis.I suspect that Thelwell leaving is for two reasons not, and the reason is not necessarily his performance as, as a recruiter, or under the previous ownership in the last few months. 

I think it’s for two reasons. One, David Moyes. I think David Moyes wants primary responsibility for recruiting for the first team.

 And I think given his record of the past, his track record of the past that’s warranted and deserved.

 And secondly, I think under the new ownership, perhaps the club’s going in a different direction in terms of recruitment.

 And perhaps Thelwell, we don’t know what that is. But perhaps Thelwell didn’t fit that. And therefore, the new owners when he came in, had a look at him and said, actually, whatever direction you want to go in, we don’t think that you’re the right guy to do this. I’ve always said on this podcast and elsewhere, that Thelwell in the game is very well respected. He has some weaknesses. 

He’s not good in the media. He doesn’t like being in front of the camera. And he doesn’t present himself, in my opinion, forcibly enough. But from a technical perspective, if you go and talk to people, for example, in the Premier League, within the FA, within the whole English setup, they say that technically, Thelwell is actually one of the best directors of football that there are in the modern game. 

So I think he should move on from Everson and recognise that, first of all, he found himself in very unfortunate circumstances coming to Everton at the time that he did. But he should have known that when he arrived. 

Secondly, I think his recruitment record is strong. Thirdly, he proved himself able to sell players in a difficult market, when most people recognise that Everton were a club that were in huge difficulties.

 Therefore, it was all of the advantages sat with the buyers. And finally, perhaps it’s not a reflection of his abilities, it’s a reflection, perhaps, that the new owners of the football club want to go in a different direction. That’s my defence of Kevin Thelwell. 

George: 

a pretty good defence. Give me because I can’t quite put the two things together.When you say the owners might want to go in a different direction, what might you mean by that Paul? I don’t understand. 

Paul: 

I think two things. I think one, they’d be happy to give Moyes the senior position.Yeah, sorry. Within football. So a traditional director of football sits above or stands above the first team coach. Moyes is not just the first team coach, he is. And I’ve always argued, I think I’ve argued on this podcast, that Moyes was actually a director of football in his first period of time that everything could be run, everything is associated, you know, in regards to how football was run under Bill Kenwright.

 Bill Kenwright determined the framework, mainly financially, because of his inadequacies. But Moyes did everything else. And I think that frequent will have recognized that. And they recognize that actually what they need is somebody that’s more technical than somebody who is perhaps more operational, which I think in the grand scheme of things, and in time, people will recognize that Tellwell was an operational performance against a recruiter as against somebody that offered a strategic vision for the club. 

That’s just my own view. You know, if you look at his heritage, his heritage, he comes from, you know, a club that was in the Red Bull stadium, in the red, I say stadium, sorry, in the Red Bull. What do you call it? Stable. Thank you. It’s late. That’s in the Red Bull state, stable. So the guy’s got something about it. 

And I think he’ll go on to have a fantastic career. I just think that probably carries some baggage now because of what’s happened to everything in recent years. And the difficulties that we faced on the pitch, which has been a reflection of the difficulties that we faced off the pitch. 

Andy: 

with me. 

Paul: 

And of course, he has to carry some of that responsibility, albeit he might argue and if I was arguing on his behalf, I would argue that most of those factors were beyond his control, and most of those factors were so baked into the position when he actually arrived in the club in 2022. 

So, from my perspective, I think he should go with most people’s best wishes.The certain thing is that he could have done better than he didn’t do. But that’s true of most people. And it’d be really interesting to see the direction which we go in now, which I believe will include David Weir coming in as a more technical sporting director and allowing David Moyes to do pretty much what he did previously. Which some people might consider to be a retrograde, old-fashioned approach, but I think Moyes did it well enough to warrant that approach going forward. 

Andy: 

You 

George: 

Yeah. Well, we’ll see. I rest my case. Well done. 

Andy: 

I love that. 

Paul: 

He knows. 

Andy: 

Well, how did you find the ladies international one? 

Paul: 

And I really enjoyed it. And I’m really surprised at that, to be honest, because I’ve held a somewhat joyous view about women’s football for a while, because it is so different from from men’s football, and obviously, you know, person of my age, like like the cellos, brought up predominantly on men’s football.

And I think I’ve been guilty in the past of trying to compare it both in terms of its physicality, in terms of its, you know, the pace of the game, to the aggressiveness of the men’s game, all this type of stuff that I actually really enjoy about the men’s game. And looking for that within a women’s game, and obviously, it doesn’t exist. 

But the real great things about, well, certainly the game that I watched was the absence of time wasting, the absence of shirt pulling, and the general respect for the referee, general respect for the opposition, and a crowd that really enjoyed themselves. 

Andy: 

Who won? 

Paul: 

England won, unless I had a complete memory lapse, England won 1-0. Yeah, 1-0. Yeah, they did win 1-0. Yeah.And you know, they’re playing the world champions, and Spain technically were really, really good. Some of the technical skills on display were fantastic. Genuinely good. Wow.

 So I really enjoyed it. It’s made me think very, very different from how I felt prior to that game about the women’s game itself. I think you’ve got to view it as a different game to men’s football. Yeah. And if that makes me sound like a dinosaur, really old fashioned, and I apologize, but at least I’m now a convert. 

Andy: 

I think, I think in regards to what you said about, you know, there’s no time wasting, there’s no shirt pulling, there’s no diving, there’s more respect for the referee and more respect for the opposition. In that respect, I think it’d be fair to say that the women’s game is a cleaner game than what we used to watch it, where we kind of not accept, but we know we’re going to see shirt pulling, we know we’re going to see diving, we know we’re going to see the referee to be in and harangue by certain players and teams, and we know that too many players will do absolutely anything to try and gain an advantage in the general terms, you don’t see that in the ladies game.

You know, absolutely, not for a while, but I’ve been watching everything ladies, and I’ve watched some ladies football on the TV, and it is a cleaner game, yes it’s not physical, yes it’s not staff, but if you’re expecting ladies to play at a kind of pace that seasons pro at Premier League level play, then you’re out of your tiny mind, and that’s not knocking the fitness levels or anything like that, it just stands to reason, and I think as you’ve said Paul, you’ve had your doubts in the past, but you’ve been a witness to gaming, and you’ve been pleasantly surprised at the skill level, that’s on view, and I think there’s definitely a place in the market for ladies football. 

Paul: 

Very, very much so Andy. And I think the one thing that if you ask me like, you know, what is the one thing that you brought away from that game is how much of the shirt pulling the holding the all the physicality illegal physicality within like the penalty area for corners for free kicks, instead ball situations must be coached into the modern men’s game as against a more pure form of the game if I can use that expression, as was witnessed in the England Spain game that I saw.

And it was almost like, not that say football in the 70s for example or the 80s was or the 60s even was not physical of course it was physical and of course, you know, the women’s game was physical as well. But all of that, you know, sly sneaky stuff that we really hate the stuff that causes so much angst when a goal is scored because it then goes to VAR about share pulling about tripping you know about sort of blocking off training likes, all of that type of stuff that once he’s endlessly on matter of the day and elsewhere. And doesn’t appear to exist yet within the women’s game, whether it actually becomes part of it or not, who knows but at this moment in time it doesn’t appear to be part of it. And it is actually really pleasant to see it. 

Andy: 

or not to see it. 

Paul: 

But it was really pleasant to see the game without it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Andy: 

Good. Excellent. 

George: 

I mean the difference between the women’s football I’ve watched and male football is speed off the mark and just power over five yards. Yeah. I don’t know whether that’s changeable.I remember reading an article once that said, you know, you talk to you listen to Venus, not Venus, Serena Williams say if she actually played Andy Murray at tennis, she wouldn’t get a point. 

And so, you know, those things. And I remember reading an article once going will sport ever equalize between men and women. And they reckon that in a long time from now, women will run marathons faster than men because of body structure and things. But it seems to me the biggest difference is just power, especially quick power over a few yards. Basically, every time I watch women’s football, they all seem to be playing at more or less the same pace. 

Obviously, there are quicker players and other players, but men’s football is defined to me by the sort of explosive power that they have over the four or five yards that actually separates the great players from the really good players. 

Paul: 

Very much so. Again, it’d be an interesting analysis, and I’m sure people have done it, but if you compare the modern game of football to men’s football, to how it was in the 70s or 80s, again, just to use them as examples, how much bigger players are today, how much heavier players are today. 

George: 

Hmm. Yeah. 

Andy: 

Mm-hmm. 

Paul: 

You know, we can all remember the smaller, nimble of players. So with the greatest players that have ever played the game, how many of them would actually get through the recruitment process, get through the academies because they’re too small, because they’re not physically strong, etc, etc. 

George: 

I want to buy this argument. One of the best teams I’ve ever seen was Barcelona and they had Iniesta and they had Messi and they had the other guy, I can’t remember his name, Dam, who, you know, were small men.Everton’s midget gems were small men. Arteta and Osman and people got on a football pitch because they were good enough to do that and strong enough to. 

Andy: 

Alan Ball, classic example, isn’t it? 

George: 

Yeah, I mean he told me he’d never make it, it was too small. It may well be that, you know, there’s a mentality that says you’re not big enough, but it’s all bollocks.Everybody would have given anything for Messi, wouldn’t they? 

Andy: 

Yeah, everybody would have given everything for glory. 

George: 

Yeah, we did. 

Andy: 

Yeah. 

George: 

including £220,000 to Arsenal. 

Andy: 

Thank you. 

George: 

still suffering from that. 

Andy: 

I know. 

Andy: 

I got excused out of a lesson at school that day because I wasn’t paying any attention. 

Paul: 

What were you on your mobile phone Andy? 

Andy: 

It would have been a brick back then. 

George: 

Is it true that I hear a rumor that Goodison may become the home of the Everton ladies team and remain a football stadium? 

Andy: 

It’s been bundled around, isn’t it? 

George: 

Any truth in that? I don’t know. I’m in. 

Paul: 

this is something that came out of a report in the Athletic, if I’m not mistaken, I think probably by Paddy Boylan, that if it wasn’t Paddy, apologies to him.

 I just think it’s a complete non-starter, to be honest.I think the cost of keeping and maintaining Goodison Park as a, first of all, the pitch to be the pitch of standard to support women’s football. Big question mark. Secondly, just the cost of hosting games there and all of the safety and all the security measures that have to go into it.

 One of the reasons for moving away from Goodison is obviously not just its size, but is the fact that as an old ground, it costs an awful lot more to maintain than a modern ground does. 

George: 

Do you imagine that Goodison will be knocked down and developed for housing and profit? 

Paul: 

I don’t know if it’s going to be done for housing and profit because, you know, there is this plan and we still have the outline planning permission for it to be used for community use. Although, very few, very few, very little has been said about that in recent years, and nothing has been said about that at all, with regards to the Friedkin’s.

But you know, if one considers that the, what is the commercial value of Goodison, if you really Goodison, you know, in a few months time, and you wanted to sell Goodison, how much can you sell it for? It’s probably six, seven, eight million pounds, I think of that nature. And, you know, it doesn’t even buy you half a reserve midfielder. Right. 

So whilst it has enormous value to us as Evertonians, it’s actual financial value is next to nothing. 

George: 

unless you sell it to redevelop it for property. 

Paul: 

Yeah, but again, there’s no, currently, there’s no plan to do that and Everton don’t have the planning permission that we’d need to sit alongside that in order to do so. 

George: 

Okay, so what have they got planning permission to do? 

Paul: 

A form of community style development that would possibly include some low cost housing, but would include stuff that I think from memory was educational and sort of community value. So health center, youth center, something like the Everton Hub on a grander scale, something of that nature as against knocking down and build high density housing or something. 

George: 

I get it. Okay. 

Andy: 

Well, we’ll also wait and see, won’t we? 

Paul: 

Right. I mean, one thing I suppose that is to show is that nobody would want to see it just left to rack and ruin. No, no. So something has to be done with regards to the stadium.But I don’t think unless it’s just very short term, and the women playing there is a long term viable, sustainable, unsustainable option.

 I also think, and going out on a bit of a limb here, I think, I also think that from a mental sort of strategic point of view, I think that when we’ve played our last game against Southampton at the end of the season, that’s it. Goodison closes and it’s never opened again. And as a football club, we all move on when we all move to Bramley-Moore and the focus becomes entirely on Bramley Moore. I don’t think it’s right that Goodison would remain open as a football ground beyond that day. And I think it might be a distraction to what Bramley Moore should be and should become. 

Andy: 

But that’s only mine. 

Paul: 

my own personal. 

Andy: 

you 

George: 

I understand that, but then what’s the argument against, because, you know, we’ll play 20, you know, if we get really successful, we might pay 25, 30 games a season there. What’s the argument against the women playing, the Everton ladies team playing at Bramley Moore? 

Paul: 

I don’t think there’s any arguments. I think they should. 

George: 

Okay. No, I think it should do. That’s the only reason why not. Yeah, I think. 

Paul: 

I think you have to make a fundamental decision as to whether the men’s team and the women’s team are both equal parts of Everton Football Club or not. And obviously one attracts much more investment, one generates much more revenue, much more interest, much more global appeal than the other. I get all of that, but if you’re going to carry the name of Everton, if you’re going to wear the badge of Everton, then I think you have to be treated as equally as you possibly can.And if that means that both teams play at Brownley more than both teams should play at Brownley more. 

George: 

I think so. I’m going to wear the grass out, are you? 

Andy: 

You wouldn’t have thought so. 

Paul: 

And you would imagine also you open the stadium to a much wider audience. So just as was the case at Wembley on Wednesday. There are kids, there are families, there are people who wouldn’t normally be able to attend, you know, a men’s game, you get to go and see a game. But you know, on

e would hope for a spectacular venue, enjoy the experience, become Everton fans.Why? Why? Why does the route to becoming an Everton fan only have to be through to the men’s team? It should be through every team that carries the Everton name and the Everton badge. 

George: 

You can’t play on the same day, so eventually you ought to end up in a situation where season tickets are for both men and women. And if you don’t want them, well, you pass them on. 

Paul: 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Totally great. 

Andy: 

There we go. All right, guys. Should we wait for wolves? 

Paul: 

wolves away. It’s going to be a far less tense game than we thought it might have been a few weeks ago. 

Andy: 

Well, I mean, we’re going to games now looking to win them, and I would see a trip to Molyneux as a very winnable game for that football club now, and I would, you know, I would be expecting, no pressure, David, but I’m expecting the Blues to go there and come away with three points.I’m sure he is. Yeah, we had a warm mind, me and David, on that. 

Paul: 

I should be the case with every game that I was in football. Exactly. 

Andy: 

You should go into every game expecting to win or launching to win and looking to win. 

Paul: 

Here, here. All right. On that note, I’m going to call time.Unless George, you’ve got anything else to add? I have not. Good. All right. Well, listen, really enjoyable conversation. When in many different ways, but there we are. Thanks to everybody for listening. And we look forward to speaking to you after Andy’s prediction of a 4-0 win at walls comes through. 

Andy: 

Yeah, I’ll go with that. 

Paul: 

Thanks guys, take care. 

Andy: 

Thanks, Paul. 

Paul: 

Cheers, guys. Thanks, everybody, for listening.