Paul: 

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, depending upon where in the world you are and what time of the day you’re listening to this post-Goodison episode of Talking the Blues. George and Andy, have your throats cleared with all the blue smoke and have you sobered up?

George: 

I was neither drunk and there was no blue smoke where I was. And it’s not goodbye to Goodison. Thank God. Goodison is staying. It’s just goodbye to men’s football. 

Paul: 

That’s true. That’s true. Yeah. 

George: 

And I’m kind of looking forward to the fact that when I go and watch the women, I will definitely be able to find a seat that’s not got a restricted view. That’ll be a treat. 

Andy: 

Hopefully one that’s a bit comfortable. 

George: 

Yeah, any road, boys, you know, I mean, I watched it on an illegal stream and that’ll be the last time I do that because I couldn’t.,I didn’t watch a frame of that yesterday. So please feel free to fill me in on the pre match, the match and the post match, which none of which I mean, I’ve seen little clips of it on YouTube, but you’re much better informed than I am the pair of you. 

Paul: 

I don’t know where to start on this really, because in a sense, the day has crept up on us, although we’ve all been known, we’ve all known for, obviously for months and months and months, what date it would, well, nearly what date it would be, but when it would be roughly, and who it was against. 

And you know, it was going to be at the end of this season, but there were so many, I didn’t go and I didn’t go deliberately because, and this is just me speaking, I wanted my last memory as a Goodison Park to be an entirely personal affair. So the last game I went to Goodison was the Peterborough Cup game. And the people I was with, I actually, they actually left before me after the final whistle, so I could just stay by myself and have my own particular memories and just look around and think of the various things that are important to me about Goodison as a place and about the people I know who used to go there.

Some of whom are obviously no longer with us and others who still go, et cetera, et cetera.So I was always determined not to go, even on the basis that I might have been able to get a ticket somehow. 

And in a sense this morning, when I woke up this morning, amongst all the thoughts, I thought, actually, I probably misjudged it. 

And in a sense, I feel now as if I should have made an effort to go, because what I failed to recognise about yesterday was that it wasn’t really about the individual. It was about the collective experience of being an Evertonian. 

And in a sense, it was almost not even about Goodison Park. It was a celebration of being an Evertonian and what being an Evertonian means collectively, and obviously individually as well.And actually, although it was a very emotional day and some incredible scenes across the internet and across the broadcast media and some well-written stuff by journalists and by other people, it’s just the end of a chapter, isn’t it? It’s not the end. It is the end of a chapter. And I thought… That’s what makes… 

Andy: 

Leighton Baines said exactly that, this isn’t the end of Everton Football Club or this is just the end of a chapter and we’ll move to the new stadium and start a whole new chapter. He summed it up perfectly, I thought. 

Paul: 

Leighton Baines has always been a very, very bright guy, hasn’t he? And on the rare occasions that he’s spoken publicly about, honest about anything, there’s always been a lot of thought and he’s always had an interesting view on matters.He’s about as atypical of a former football player, and indeed was probably as atypical of a football player when he actually played, as you can possibly get, I think. I’d almost put him in the same category as Pat Nevin in that sense. 

Andy: 

Yeah, he’s a thinking man’s footballer. 

Paul: 

Yeah, I know he always had an interesting view on the game. So I’m delighted to hear that he said that, because that is the case, surely. 

And that’s not getting away from the emotion of the event. And we’ll talk a bit more about that in a few minutes.I actually think I think David Moyes, I’m going to say this early in the podcast, I think David Moyes got it absolutely pitch perfect in his interview when he was on the pitch. And it was clear to me that he thought about what he wanted to say beforehand. 

And it was a combination of deliberate messaging in the sense that he wanted to present a message to a number of audiences, obviously the fans to the club itself, but particularly to the owners. And I thought he summed up the position brilliantly when he said, we had unbelievable times here over the years. I mean, we now need to start rebuilding again. And I think this is the critical bit. 

“This club felt like to me, one, which is a big family, but looked broken and felt broken. And it doesn’t feel like that anymore. I hope the owners are recognising what they’re seeing today as well, because this has to be built up, brought back.

 And we need to get back to where we belong and where we believe we should be. There are 100 players here today who’ve played some great games here and been in some great teams. We now need to try to make that happen again”. 

And in a sense that was, and I think there are elements in that quote that will become as famous as the famous John Moore’s quote, when he talked about needing to perform, because the fans pay good money to be here. And he talked about the big, if you recall that famous quote, when he talked about there being a great fan base at Goodison. And that was obviously in very different times many, many years ago, mid sixties, I think he said that. And I think this quote or the elements of this quote by David Moyes will resonate into the future, just as John Moore’s quote did over 50 years ago, nearly 60 years ago now. 

George: 

Fair play, sounds good, yeah. 

Paul: 

And it was a direct challenge to the owners. In a sense, it was a little bit of self acknowledgement in terms of what he’s achieved since he’s been at the club.To go from just being one point ahead of relegation to being 27 or so points ahead of the relegation spot. 

Andy: 

It’s pretty like this, but when he came, as you said, we were a point above the relegation places, and now we’re finishing third. Well, provided Wolves don’t win their remaining two games, we’ll finish 13th. 

And if people had said on the day that Dykes left and Moyes came in, that we would finish in 13th, I think every one of us would have committed the other one for some mental reassessment. It’s quite astonishing.I mean, he’s obviously done a good job, certainly in the first few weeks he was here with the run of results that took us clear. 

Maybe the results tailed off a little bit, but at the end of the day, he’s done what he was brought in to do. And that was to bring back some stability and get us cleared of relegation. And he’s done that in spades to me to finish. I said to finish 13th, none of us, none of us were dreaming of that. The cynic could say, well, it’s an indication of quite how poor the Premier League is, that there’s two clubs who are going to play in the European final on Wednesday night, one of who is going to proceed to the Champions League who finishing behind Everton in 13th place, Everton, you know, who’ve been classed as a relegation struggler for the last three years. 

Paul: 

Can you just talk about that point for a second Andy, sorry to have crossed you. I’m not sure where the logic applies in terms of saying the Premier League is one of the poorest Premier Leagues we’ve had for many many years.If clubs who are finishing 16th and 17th still end up in the final of European competition, surely that means that the Premier League is by far no way the best league in Europe. 

Andy: 

Um. 

Paul: 

I know that’s a completely contrary view to the view that many people hold but 

Andy: 

I’m not sure. I’m not sure about that. I just, I just think that I’m not sure. Personally, I don’t think it has been a very, I don’t think it’s been a memorable Premier League season by any stretch of the imagination.The fact that, you know, the title was decided weeks ahead of the end of the season. The fact that the three relegation places were decided, you know, weeks ahead of the end of the season, nothing’s gone down to the wire. Nothing at all has gone down. The only thing that’s gone down to the wire was the FA Cup Final. And to be honest, it would have been very, very easy to have missed the Cup Final on Saturday, because there’s been no build up to it. 

Such is the right word. The way that the FA Cup is treated these days, you know, it’s the oldest, it’s the oldest trophy in professional football. And it was almost like a byproduct. There was, there was practically nothing. No, I didn’t see much. I mean, granted I was away last week, so I wasn’t particularly looking, but you would, I’d completely forgotten that it was the Cup Final until Friday. And I thought, I’m going to make this a Cup Final on Saturday. And I looked on, you know, I looked and oh, it is. But, you know, in years gone by, the build up to the Cup Final has been, you know, wall to wall. And it wasn’t this year. The degradation of the FA Cup, if you like, in the pecking order of football is a shame. But like I said, I think that’s the only thing that’s gone to the wire that the rest of the rest of it hasn’t. It’s been. 

George: 

I don’t agree with this, Andy. What’s gone to the wire is who is going to finish in the Champions League places. That’s been quite, you know, there’s the six or seven teams fighting like mad and still fighting like mad to see who’s going to get in the big pot next year. That’s been you’re right that there was one horse race and three fell out the bottom pretty damned early. Thank God one of them could have been off. 

But that’s been the interest.And you’re absolutely right about the F.A. Cup, too, which has been denigrated since United decided to go and playing a World Cup championship and send reserves to play the F.A. Cup. They announced it was a pile of piss and it stayed like that. And it’s denigrated because you don’t get replays and you don’t get the big, you know, the big draw. The F.A. Cup was that Mansfield might play Man United and they might get a replay and he might get to go to all traffic and have a 60,000 crowd and get some handbag. That’s all gone.

Yeah, because Mansfield doesn’t matter. Yeah, I think it matters. You know, big big clubs. That’s the mentality that’s running the game.Let’s get back to it. Yeah. 

Andy: 

That’s why I was pleased on Saturday that Palace won. 

Paul: 

Maybe, maybe I got out of bed on the wrong side this morning, but I’m going to be contrary again. Go ahead.I think if you’ve played any of those, I agree with the general synopsis that the FA copy is not as important to broadcasters, and perhaps not as important to the bigger clubs anymore. But I challenge you to find a Crystal Palace fan who believes the same. And the scenes at Wembley were magnificent. The scenes at Goodison yesterday were magnificent, but the scenes at Wembley were incredible. 

Andy: 

That’s the proof Paul, football is about the fans. 

Paul: 

Yeah, that’s exactly where I was going, Andy. You’re 100% right, in my opinion. 

Andy: 

You know, football is about the fans. I mean, you know, the crowds at Goodison yesterday were amazing. The scenes were, you know, the streets, you know, busy from eight o’clock in the morning. People queuing outside, the winds low, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.And then, you know, all of, you know, the blue smoke and everything, you know, and for the Palace at Wembley on Saturday, just tremendous scenes amongst the Palace fans. I was made up that they won that game. I really was.

 I mean, I’m no Palace fan, but I was so, so pleased that Palace won that Cup Final, because if you like, it was, for me, it just made football a little bit more honest, which might be a controversial view, but I just think that spirit and heart overcame money and self-entitlement at Wembley on Saturday.I couldn’t have been more pleased, because I think, I think that’s, you know, I just think that, well, it’s probably for the close season, you know, what’s wrong with football, but the good things about football were the Palace fans and the Everton fan base yesterday. 

And actually, one of the best videos I watched of yesterday was taken by a Southampton fan, and he was, he’d filmed outside Goodison on his mobile phone, and then he’d got in the lower bullions, and he was filming the Everton crowd, you know, celebrating, you know, what everything that we’ve said before, the experience of being an Evertonian, and, you know, when he canned up onto the top balcony of the main stand, and just about everybody up there, you know, was singing, and there was people stood up, and, you know, there might be the odd blue who’s never been up in the top balcony, and it’s like the north face of the Eiger. 

It’s steep, and for people to be stood up and bouncing up and down and singing, you know, and this guy, he made about a 12-minute video, and to me, it was the best video of yesterday that I’ve seen so far, and this was a Southampton fan. He’d obviously got his backside out of bed early in the morning and traveled all the way up, and he made a terrific video, and I would encourage everybody to go on YouTube and find it and watch it, because it’s both inside and outside the ground. It was terrific. It’s really good. I thought, well done, well done, pal. 

Paul: 

It’s good to hear. I think I’ve seen it. I’ll find it. And I’ll stick a link in with the podcast. And funny enough, you know, I mean, not this, but I think they just said the praise I thought the Southampton fans acted with a huge amount of dignity and respect for the occasion yesterday in terms of, you know, recognising that the day was actually about Everton and Evertonians not, you know, they’ve had a very disappointing season, obviously. But also they moat the vast majority of them and obviously they had a long journey home and getting out of Liverpool yesterday must have been really difficult or getting away from Goodison must have been really difficult. The vast majority of them stayed to witness the post match event. Yeah, they did. You can call it that. 

Andy: 

Yeah, that’s the spirit of football. Come a long way.And, you know, they probably knew before the game, or they were feeling that they were going to get beaten again. But yeah, they, they, they soaked up the atmosphere. And, and appeared to thoroughly enjoy it. Well, they wouldn’t have stayed if they wouldn’t have been enjoying it. They were and they were part of it and fair play to every single one of them. 

George: 

Tell me about the event after the match, please. 

Andy: 

And the lady who played during COVID, there was a lady who had gone out on the streets and played Z cars on a violin.

And there was a video of that.This was during COVID when we were all locked up and they stabbed the other.And she was invited to Goodison and she went on pitch and played Z cars on a violin.I thought that was tremendous.

And then it kind of went a little bit downhill.I mean, I’m sure he did his best, but he had a lad come on with a guitar and mouth organ.And he sang the Elton John song, which I am led to believe.I don’t know whether this is 100% true, but I was once told that it was one of Howard Kendall’s favorite songs.I guess that’s why they call us the blues.

And this kid absolutely destroyed it.It was shocking.And I just found myself thinking, why didn’t they just play the Elton John record? Or, you know, this is probably a complete pie in the sky. Why didn’t they invite Elton John up to play live? You know, he’s got an association with Evan because he was the owner of Watford when we played in the 84 Cup Final. 

George: 

Monday. 

Andy: 

yeah I mean total pie in the sky on my part but you know I’m sorry but the young man who stood up and played his guitar and played his mouth organ destroyed it it was it was poor just that rendition of that song because that’s a song that’s been played a lot at Goodison particularly since Howard passed and it’s one that everybody joins in with and I felt yesterday that he butchered it and people didn’t join in to the extent that they would have done had they just played the record

George: 

All right. 

Andy: 

I thought I found that a little bit disappointing. There was some criticism on Social media last night. I read some last night of people saying that it was that the the post match was somewhat underwhelming

 But I don’t think people went to Goodison yesterday for Any post match celebration?Yes, it was nice to see all the former players or as many of the former players as they could get there Parade round the pitch But I think yesterday was more about every individual’s personal Connection with Goodison and connection with with being an Evertonian And That’s how it that’s how I felt about it 

And and there will be you know there were people outside during a game who traveled up and didn’t have a ticket but stayed outside the ground and I guess the I guess there will be people who weren’t in attendance yesterday who didn’t get inside the ground or couldn’t get inside the ground or weren’t able to go who Will go perhaps we’ll go to Goodison for a ladies game in the future and with no Disrespect to the ladies at all. 

Let me stress this They won’t go Specifically to watch the ladies game they’ll watch the ladies game, but that won’t be the main impetus of their visit to Goodison on that particular day It will be to go and sit there or stand there and Relive the memories Good and bad of their own personal time at Goodison watching the men’s team I know that’s how I felt And and feel that maybe one day I’ll go back to Goodison and Just you know cuz we’ve all got we’ve all got memories of Goodison.We’ve got we’ve got good memories. We’ve got Fantastic memories and we’ve got bad memories and it’s everybody’s personal connection to the club And the ground that’s special And we’ll we’ll all get to Celebrate it if that it celebrates the right word in our own in our own way, but yesterday was as Paul said earlier about the collective You know thirty nine or thirty six thousand allow for the Southampton fans who were there Thirty six thirty seven thousand people as one You know individuals, but we were there is you know The fans were there as as one as one as an Evertonian period I….

Paul: 

Yeah, very much so, Andy, very much. So sorry, I’ve lost my train of thought. Sorry about that. No, no, no, it’s all.

I mean, Goodison, and everything, there are people who can describe Goodison far more eloquently than I can. And it made me really, I wrote something on the week about music. I mean, you could write a whole book on the history of how Goodison has been developed over the years. But it made me realise, actually, that as sad as it was for everybody to leave Goodison yesterday, and as much of an effort the club made to make leaving Goodison a significant event, and the truth is, is that we’ve been trying to leave Goodison for many, many years. And I suppose a much bigger question might be why it’s taking so long.

 Because when I was doing some research for the article that I wrote, something I hadn’t realised previously. But going back to February 1963, and I don’t know who the gentleman was, because I haven’t been able to do more research on it. But John Moores was presented with a plan to move from Goodison to the city centre of Liverpool with a 100,000 seat stadium built that would have included a running track around it. So in effect, it would have become an Olympic grade stadium. And it was only rejected on the grounds of cost, not rejected for some sort of spiritual or sort of loyalty to Goodison Park.

And I suppose, and I guess this has been demonstrated up and down the country and all around the world in terms of football. While football grounds are really important to the people who go there, actually, at the end of the day, they’re commodities, they’re utilities, they’re just assets. They are in themselves as a building, George, correct me if I’m wrong, if you wanted to look at it in terms of what you’ve done for a living. There is a theatre, there is a stage upon which a play is performed, and that play consists of the actors who are the players and the audience who are the spectators at a football match. 

George: 

The greatest truth about my business, which must be true for football as well, especially the kind of football that we all watch, is that there’s no play unless there’s an audience. You can rehearse it, you can be brilliant in the rehearsal room, nobody comes to watch it, it doesn’t happen.

And that’s the same, you know, that is what we’re all saying, but that yesterday was the sort of culmination of an incredible, incredible number of collective memories. You know, you could get really choppy data about it and go, what was your favourite moment at Goodison? What was your favourite game? What was your worst? All that stuff. But, you know, we all know what they are. And they’re done, they’re finished. 

Next, onwards, come on, we must go forward.And that was a great day to look back, I suppose. And I’m glad we won, and, you know, God, it would have been awful if we hadn’t. And I’m sure we could chomp Newcastle on next week and get a stay above walls. And then we must, as you’re quoting Moyesey absolutely correctly, to say we have to go forward. Because, you know, listening to what you were saying about, you know, you’re right to say, if anybody had said we could finish 13th, we’d have all gone, you must be off your chomp. 

Finished 13th, Everton, for crying out loud. We fought it behind Liverpool. We’ve got to stop all this nonsense. And Moyes is dead right to look to the future and go, you know, come on, give me the tools to build a team here. 

Andy: 

Yeah, I found myself thinking, I think I said this to you guys, you know, in the WhatsApp group, that with Everton now moving from Goodison to Bramley Moore, we must be the only club, and Liverpool must be the only city that’s had three football stadiums commissioned and built and developed initially by one club, because Everton started at Anfield and moved to Goodison and now we’re moving to Bramley Moore. I can’t think of another city in the world that’s had three grounds built by one club, and just last night I got to thinking about it now.As Moyes said, you know, he feels like he’s made a challenge to the owners, you know, give me the tools so we can get the job done and build a competitive side to challenge for silverware. 

And the goal now, and again, this is going to sound a bit pie in the sky right this minute, but we need to be champions of the Premier League as soon as possible at Bramley Moore. And then not only will we be the only club to have built three stadiums in one city, we’ll likely be the only club that have won three championships in each of those stadiums, because the first championship was won at Anfield, eight more were won at Goodison, and we need another one now at Bramley Moore. That would be some legacy. Three stadiums and a championship won in every one of them. That has got to be the goal now. Come what may, Everton need to be champions of England as soon as possible at Bramley Moore. 

Paul: 

Yeah. The next question. Sorry, go on, No, go on, George. 

George: 

No, no, I’m much more interested in your next question than mine. I’ve heard mine. But we haven’t. All right then.

You won’t want to go there, but yesterday I got a text after 15 minutes going, this is archetypical Moyes. Moyes, we go one goal up and we sit back. Do you two truly believe, and I know that you said Paul and I agree with you, that Moyes is a highly competitive human being. Do you believe he has the mentality to change so that we don’t go one up? Let me be really brutal about this because, you know, we said we would do. 

The difference between Everton and Liverpool is Liverpool go one up, they’re likely to get five. If we go one up, we’re likely to get another one and they’ll score two at the end lap. Ipswich did the other day. That mentality of, you know, I remember reading a book of Brearley’s once, Mike Brearley, the ex-England cricket captain, and the only bit that stayed with me was when you’ve got an opponent down, stand on their throat. That is the only respectful thing to do, he said. Beat them by as much as you possibly can. And that mentality is what fires and has fired Liverpool for a very long time. 

And I haven’t seen that at Goodison for a very long time and I question whether David Moyes has got that. I think I agree with you, he’s competitive but as he got, come on, get five, get six, get everything, fill your boots and, you know, it’s only 90 minutes a game. Just kill them is a mentality we need to get if, as you say, we must and should end up champions because I agree with that. Of course we should agree with that, 13th.

 I mean it’s tragic, it’s pathetic and it’s the best we’ve done for a fair few seasons, my God, who are we? And my question to you is, do you really believe for all his excellent qualities and, you know, I honour David Moyes, is he really the guy who can provide us with a championship-winning side? 

Andy: 

It’s a good question, bro. 

George: 

What was yours, Paul? 

Paul: 

Well, let’s answer that question first. And personally, I think the answer to that question is yes. And why do I think that? I think it’s probably unrealistic. 15 years ago or something more than 15 years ago and when Moyes was at his pomp, everything.

 But it was probably unrealistic because, not because he didn’t have the desire or he didn’t have the technical mouse or the tactical mouse or the ability to motivate players. Then it was not possible because we didn’t have the resources to compete. How many times were we just signing a goal scorer away from knocking on the glass ceiling, as it used to be called, to actually breaking through it? And had we been able to have those resources at that time, then I think he would have achieved that. And I think his career would have been very, very different.

He wouldn’t have gone to Manchester United when he did. And he wouldn’t, therefore he wouldn’t have failed at United. And I think he would have gone on to become one of, as he rightly is, in terms of longevity, he stands next to Wenger and he stands next to Ferguson. In terms of trophies, he’s won one trophy.

 So where does that put him on the list of football managers? Obviously not very high. But I think it was a resource issue with him then. And it still might be a resource issue with him going forwards. And I think that’s why he’s saying what he’s saying now. 

I think he’s saying, give me a chance, give me a chance to prove that with everything that Everton is, I can make the changes and push that team over a line that we’ve not been able to get over for 30 odd years, 35 years. Well, the FA Cup was 30 years ago. The league, more than that, 37 years ago, 38 years ago. 

I think that’s why Moyes said what he said yesterday. It would have been very easy for him to say, I said nothing yesterday. And just saying, this is a wonderful club. He might have even followed the Tim Cahill line of, I’m very privileged to be here. And I have to look back at the days when I worked with the chairman. He could have easily said that, which is as we said Tim Cahill did. But he didn’t. He actually recognised the occasion. Thank the fans for the part that the fans play with in the club, which is, you know, I think our fan, literally think our fan base is more important to our club than it is to any other club. 

Given one how strong our fan base is, the level of support, the unity amongst it and the passion. But that’s compared with, you know, the relative position that Everton Football Club are in. I don’t think there’s another club sent here in England whereby the reliance upon the fans is so great and where the fans have contributed so much to keeping, well, in the first instance, keeping the club as a Premier League club.

 Now we have to shift our ambitions. And I think this is what David Moyes was also saying to the fans, including the three of us. We have to shift our ambitions now to becoming a successful football club once more and winning the Premier League. 

Paul: 

He didn’t have to say that yesterday. He could have walked off that stage, walked off the pitch yesterday, thanking everybody and saying, you know, what a beautiful, wonderful day it is. But he didn’t do that. He didn’t.

He chose to challenge everybody and he chose to, therefore, challenge himself because if you’re Angus Kinnear, who’s now the new CEO, you’ll be sitting down with David Moyes in the next couple of days and saying, that was great. David, thank you very much for saying that.

 Now, what is it that you plan to do about it to get us to the position that you state we ought to be in? And David Moyes should have a number of ideas. And he should have to say to Angus Kinnear, now it’s your job, Mr. CEO, to go to the owners and say to the owners, this is what we need. 

OK, we’ve got the brand new stadium. We’ve clearly got the fan base behind us. We’re clearly in a much better position emotionally and everything else than we have been for many, many years. But we need the following. We need a dozen players. We need the academy to be sorted out. We need our medical sciences to be much better than they are currently. We need our training facilities to be better. 

Whatever the wish list is, whatever the list of requirements are, to get everything to that position, Moyes has created a platform here now that both will challenge the people that need to provide it.But we’ll also now challenge him to produce the results. Because I don’t think for a second that the Friedkins are going to be satisfied with what we’ve got in terms of the resources available to us and the infrastructure and the people that we’ve got within the organization. We’ve already seen a big change at the senior executive level on the operating side of the business. We’re going to see even more change, we’re seeing change on the footballing side. Kevin Thelwell disappearing, the fact that we’ve changed the model away from a director of football to a much flatter structure with individual specialists in individual aspects of running the game. 

I think we’re going to see an awful lot more of that.So to answer your question, yes, David Moyes can achieve this. David Moyes wants to achieve this. And he’s no fool. He’s put himself in a position whereby he’s raising expectations. And that challenges him, but it also challenges the people that have to provide the resources to do that. Thank you. 

George: 

Fair play. I hope in, you know, two years’ time I’m going and I’ll have another slice of humble pie along with Ashley Young’s pile of humble pie that I’ve been chomping on for a bit. 

Paul: 

I don’t think it’s a question of having humble pie, it’s just that you ask the question, you have your own opinion. 

George: 

And I don’t agree with you. I think there’s a gap in mentality.I think he’s a great defensive coach because I think he was probably, you know, a very thoughtful center half. Whether he’s got, I’ve seen no evidence. 

And maybe you’re right, maybe it is resources. So, you know, I’ll certainly keep an open mind and all the hope I’ve got that he can organize a team to attack other teams. To go out and go, right, you’re going to get stuffed good and proper, because we’re better than you. Believe at the moment, perhaps your right circumstances have never allowed him to have that mentality.

 But I’ve never seen that mentality in him. And I would love to, because it’s that kind of mentality that wins championships in the end.You know, occasionally clubs will do it by playing defensive football. I don’t want to watch that. I want to watch us go out and play. 

Paul: 

I think you’re right. I don’t want to watch that either.

I mean, I could, you know, throw a contrary sort of exponents of the defensive game at you and say what’s the difference between him and David Moyes. And that was our previous manager who, you know, was so anti-football that he believed that the only way to not lose a game was to make sure that the opposition didn’t score. 

George: 

I’ll throw another one at you. Pep Guardiola. I’ll keep the ball. You won’t see the ball. We can’t lose. 

Paul: 

Yeah, and yes, and yes, and yes, it’s worked, yeah. 

George: 

Yeah, but, you know, he’s had the resources and he’s got a belief in those kind of players. You know, he does play and he does pick attacking attacking players. I’m not sure about Moyse’s mentality with attacking players. But I’ve got to shut up because, as you quite rightly said, we never really had the resources.We had Andy Johnson. We had the Yak. They weren’t, you know, with the deepest respect and love and fondness for them. They weren’t top line goal scorers. We haven’t had one though since Lenneke. 

Andy: 

Well, we had Lukaku, but we couldn’t meet his ambitions, could we? 

George: 

You know, well, that, you know, that’s a very, that’s another huge can of worms and our ambitions and players ambitions, you know. 

Andy: 

Yeah, I mean, I mean, the ambition has got to be to be champions of England again. But not in the blasé way that Denise Ballot-Baxendale once trollied that out at a shareholders meeting.

You know, that was just the CEO speaking for the people in front of that. We need somebody to really instill it as a genuine belief and goal within the club. The club wants to be and fully intends to be and is going to do whatever is necessary to become the best in the country. 

George: 

Well, that has to be a marriage between Moyes and the Friedkins, doesn’t it? 

Andy: 

Yeah. Yeah. And to be honest, I share your hesitancy towards David Moyes and having the capability to make his champions. It’d be nice if he did because it means we haven’t got to go searching for another manager.

You know, if he can find that within himself, yeah, that would be great. But I mean, I’m with you. I want to see us attacking more rather than relying on defense, even yesterday, even yesterday against Southampton, we got the early goal through and day, um, and we, you know, no disrespect to Southampton again, but we should have been able to put five past them yesterday. I mean, I know Beto had to disallowed for the offside. 

Um, and I did make it two nil, but really second, second half, you know, I would, it’s probably cheerless of me to say I was disappointed in the performance in the second half. We didn’t go for it. 

We didn’t, we didn’t go to, or there didn’t appear to be enough drive, be it from the players or be it from, from the touchline. For Christ’s sake, there’s 39,000 people here. Give them somewhere else to share about. 

George: 

that is it precisely, you’ve nailed it. My doubts about Moyes. He was clearly the right man for the job. And he’s done that job. Now he’s got a different job. And from what you’re saying, Paul, and I respect this too, he’s recognized that. And he’s asking for the tools to do the job. So I should shut up and go, go on then. Go on, son. 

Paul: 

No, it’s not a question of anybody shutting up, is it? It’s my opinion and… 

George: 

Oh, you do get to a point where you think, oh, stop carping, you know, your job as a fan is to support. 

Paul: 

I mean, we could have, for the last 15 years, and for many years prior to that, said nothing about how the club was run. We’d be in a far worse position today, had that been the case, had we just blindly sucked up the, you know, frankly, the rubbish that we were served and the rubbish that we were told by successive owners. 

Andy: 

and the rubbish that’s been perpetuated by the previous manager this week. 

George: 

Watch that, Andy. 

Andy: 

Dyche did an interview where he referred to Headlock-gate. I mean, just perpetuating the myth of what allegedly happened. 

Paul: 

He said, he talked about the fact that the club is in such a difficult position following the Southampton game of January 2023 that the directors were unable to go to the game for security considerations or perceived threats. Which is a complete fallacy.

I’m not saying for a second that somebody in the club didn’t issue an edict to the directors that they shouldn’t go to the game because it suited the board’s purposes at the time for them to be seen as being the victims of fans demanding more from the club and from the owner of the club. 

So that probably happened. What didn’t happen was any demonstrable, well rather what has never occurred is any demonstrable proof of those threats. You know, which would be a very easy thing if those threats had existed, it’d be very easy to nail that and say look, here are the threats. This is what was said at the time and therefore we were totally justified with our behaviour. That has never ever appeared anywhere. Let me just be absolutely clear with the headlock gate. 

Headlock gate did not occur when the club said it occurred. Denise Barrett Baxendale, in 2019, had an incident with a fan in one of the corporate areas of Goodison where the fan put his arm around Denise and perhaps behaved inappropriately. But no charges were ever made and the fan concerned was not banned from the club or anything else. That was the only incident that has ever occurred whereby Denise Barrett Baxendale was inappropriately physically touched by an Everton fan. The headlock gate was a complete and utter fabrication in order to discredit what was a perfectly legal and peaceful demonstration by Everton fans about the state that the club was running. I can’t say it any more clearly than that. 

George: 

I will only add to that, that that was my farewell to Goodison. That was the last time I was there, holding a banner with about seven.You were there with Andy, weren’t you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, holding a banner, trying to get it on the telly. But, you know, protesting against the shambles that our club had become. And so the events of yesterday and and the truth behind Moyes’s speech and your personal enthusiasm and sort of back end of the freekins puts us in a wonderful position from that day when, you know, one was. 

Andy: 

I think what you’re saying, bro, is that day, the club and the fan base was completely splintered. Yesterday demonstrated that the club, pardon the word, is completely united. 

George: 

That’s good. 

Andy: 

Everybody is on the same page now. The ownership, the fan base, the management and the players that will be there next season are all on the same page and back around Headlock Gate times, the club was completely fractured, splintered and toxic. It’s the complete polar opposite now.Everybody’s on the same page. Everybody’s looking forward. There’s the new stadium to go into and hopefully, fingers crossed, a bright new future, a positive new future, a winning new future. 

Paul: 

Yeah, absolutely. For me, the biggest difference is that the majority of fans have always acted like the adults in the room, figuratively speaking. At that particular time in everything’s history, just a few years ago, under Moshiri’s guidance, for want of a better term, they weren’t, they weren’t behaving in an adult manner. And the difference between then and now is that we’ve got people owning the club and now people running the club, who are adults in the room.Yeah, and that’s what gives me the confidence to look at what David Moyes said, for example, yesterday. And to say, look, let’s build, let’s build on what we’ve got.

 And let’s achieve what we’ve achieved in the past. And most importantly, in the context of the day, looking around, looking around at the uniqueness of there being so many Evertonians inside the ground and outside the ground, all just wanting to be part of the, you know, the fact that the final lines of that chapter in Everton’s history. 

And that’s what I thought, maybe if I’d been there, I’d take away a more emotional view and reading some of my friends messages who were there yesterday and seeing some of their videos and pictures and stuff, clearly, very, very emotional, particularly for people who were there with, you know, family members, different generations all going to the game for the last time, all going to Goodison for the last time, to watch the men’s team. 

But yeah, we’ve got adults now running the club again.And I think I think I think the value of custodianship will come to the fore once more. And the fans have for years and years and years been the only true custodians of Everton Football Club. 

And that goes back an awful long time. An awful long time. We, in a sense, we’ve done our bit and we’ll continue to do our bit in terms of presenting, you know, creating the atmosphere and providing the support for the players on the pitch. 

It’s now time for, for David Moyes, Angus Kinnear, the Friedkins, and anybody else who’s involved, to take on board that custodian role once more, and to demonstrate that being good custodians of the club at the top of the club leads to success on the pitch.That’s what happened for a very short period of time under John Moores. 

And that’s where we’ve got to get back to. Yeah. 

And I think that’s why Moyes said what he said yesterday, the responsibility. Yes, we’re all, you know, the individual components and managers, the training squad, the players, the fans, we will all do our bit, as we always have done, or the majority of us always have done. But now we need you guys who sit in the boardroom, and you guys who sit in the executive offices to do your bit as well.

And that’s, that’s the challenge. Yep. I can’t think of another, and obviously, there’s an evident bias to this, I can’t think of another football club, whose fan base could have done what they did yesterday, given all that’s gone on before. 

George: 

I’m going to have to just chip in here and say, on behalf of the Barcelona fans and they might think you talk in chat, they were closed by the King of Spain in 1921 and for three years, the fans went, paid the money, stood there for 90 minutes, watched nothing at all happen on the pitch because there were no players, kept paying the money, kept paying the money until three years later the King caved in. That might give them bragging rights. 

Paul: 

Spot on George, 

George: 

at my screen and club, you know, and all that stuff. But I believe everything feel like that. You know, I think it is more than a club. Moyes was right when he arrived, he went, this is the family club. People’s club. Yeah, he’s right about that.There’s something about that. I don’t know what that is. It’s probably just because we’re Blues and it’s nice to be identified and given a role as a member of a family, as a group, a member of a group of people. I think it all. 

Paul: 

It also says something about the city, George, if you don’t mind me saying so. No, not at all. 

George: 

Paul, because eventually, sorry, just to cut across you. I was glad that wasn’t there yesterday, because in a way, that was a day for scousers.And I know we’re all blues, and some of us are not from Liverpool. But I thought of all the people who live in those houses, we’re not going to get that experience anymore. But I’ve walked to the ground for years and years and years. And go on, you talk about it, because you’re right, you are a scouser. And it’s a different thing. 

Paul: 

I don’t think it excludes anybody that wasn’t born within, you know, city boundaries. That doesn’t matter. 

You’re part of the family and you’re no lesser fan. Just, you know, that’s as ridiculous as saying that somebody who was born in America or Australia can’t be a, you know, a true fan of Everton Football Club, of course they can. So you’re not, in any sense, lesser of a fan, just because you happen to be born outside of Liverpool. 

I genuinely and have always believed that.The point I was going to make was, this is a city, you know, Liverpool, sorry, is a city that’s been great at various times in the history of the United Kingdom, of Great Britain. 

It was great during your lifetimes and sort of towards the very beginning of my lifetime was still great in terms of, you know, its importance in terms of world trade, the port itself, and all of the cultural stuff that came out of the city and everything that the city gave the world. But it’s also gone through incredibly tough times as well. I, you know, 

I remember the recessions of the late 70s and the early 80s when Margaret Thatcher came to power and the absolute, you know, the boys from the black stuff type stuff that went on at the time. 

I remember all of that.And for me, Everton, for many, many reasons, far too many reasons to talk about on this podcast, are more representative of the city of Liverpool than Liverpool Football Club itself. 

And that’s not, I’m not knocking Liverpool for saying that. I’m just saying, Everton, to me, represents everything that the city of Liverpool is about and how we’ve got to be as a city who we are, and that’s why, you know, I know some people laugh at me. That’s why I call us the senior club of the city, because we are a club that represents the city more so than anybody else, in my opinion. 

George: 

Fair play, Paul. 

Andy: 

No argument. See ya. 

Paul: 

And yesterday was just an example of that. Yesterday was great because it was great because the people made it great. Not necessarily the club or not necessarily the occasion. It was just that everybody who decided to go yesterday decided that they were going to make it a great occasion. 

And it couldn’t have been a great occasion without individuals contributing their contribution to that occasion.It doesn’t matter who had Elton John being there or not, that wouldn’t have made the occasion great. Paul McCartney was rumored to have been there at one stage, but obviously it wasn’t. That wouldn’t have made the occasion great. What made it great was the attitude of the people, the attitude of the fans, and the personal contribution that they’ve made both yesterday, but have always made to the club. And for that, we talk about being privileged. We are uniquely privileged to be Evertonians for that very reason. 

George: 

Fair play, Paul. 

Paul: 

I can’t say more than that, the blue blood is pulsing through my veins. 

Andy: 

I’ll never have guessed. 

Paul: 

So yeah, that’s where we are. I can’t add any more to it than that. No. So should we leave it till Newcastle away last game of the season? 

Andy: 

Yeah, next Sunday, four o’clock. 

George: 

That’s the kick-off I’m doing. 

Andy: 

They’re all at 4 o’clock next Saturday. 

George: 

Oh, right. Yeah. 

Andy: 

All the games are all concurrent. 

Paul: 

and see if Moyes is good to his word. 

Andy: 

Let’s hope so. 

George: 

What do you literally mean by that? 

Paul: 

Well, in terms of where we want to get to, what we want to be, no better way of standing off the season with an awe-inspiring victory at Newcastle that defies perhaps what our expectations of it may be. 

Andy: 

Right. 

Paul: 

Yeah, I’ve actually prepared something here. I’m not gonna be very good at this type of like rereading off a script and stuff But I was, I was, I was trying to think of something that’s perhaps other people had said about other things that may be appropriate to what happened to Goodison yesterday and George you’ll know put no more about this than me, but it’s called me the the bars embrace farewell.

Oh I And it’s about the Globe theater. All right in London. So I’m going to change the globe to Goodison and The verse says  “the ink has dried the final act is done, but shadows linger memory is begun kiddosyn still stands a witness to the years where laughter tears and passion held their spheres”

Andy: 

He could write that Bill, couldn’t he? 

Paul: 

Well, I’m glad there was a Bill that could write. Hee hee hee hee hee. Ha ha ha ha ha. No way. And on that note. See you in time, son.Yeah, and in fact, just one last thing. 

Thank you to every single Evertonian who made yesterday as special as it was. You’ve put a huge amount into it. And regardless of where we were in the world and how we watched it, we all received a big deal from the contribution of the people that were there, so thank you. 

Andy: 

Yep. 

Paul: 

Yeah. Well said, Paul. All right, guys. Thank you very much.