Paul: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, depending upon where in the world you are and what time of the day you’re listening to this episode of Talking the Blues. Andy’s had his engineers working on his internet connection for the last 24 hours and glad to report that he’s back with us. 

Welcome back, Andy. 

Andy: Yeah. Cheers, Paul, George, Hopefully we’ve not got Norman Collier impersonations today. 

Paul: Well no, no, we’ve got Fanny Craddock though. 

Andy: Oh, I forgot that, yeah. 

Paul: For any younger listeners, George is going to regale us with his recipe for his Toulouse sausage. 

George: Um, it’s on request, you know. It is on request, yes. I’m not shoving this down anybody’s throat, ho, ho, ho. 

Paul: All right, well, look, we can get on to those more delightful affairs a little bit later. Let’s start with a, well, what should we call it, a less than satisfying starter, which was the game at the weekend. 

Andy: Well, it was a win, wasn’t it? And a win is a win is a win, as they say. But the manner in which it was achieved left an awful lot to be desired for him at the football club. The standard, the standard, I mean, the post -match interview that Sean Dyche gave, where he said the game plan was to win ugly. 

And that doesn’t exactly ring true with School of Science ethics that we hope is still part and parcel of the club’s DNA. But I guess needs must at this stage of the season and with everything else that’s gone on. 

George: I think School of Science is a dream Andy:. We’re so far from that. It’s an ideal to be mentioned and for people who don’t know what we’re talking about, to go, what the hell are you talking about? What’s School of Science? 

And for us to all wax lyrical about something that was nothing like what we watched on Saturday. But to be fair to him, he must know exactly what distance he is from the School of Science now, which is light years. 

Andy: Oh, yeah. Yeah, sorry. I suppose really, you know, I mean, we should, we should be grateful that we got the win that we needed and we finally did a double over someone for the first time in about four seasons. 

Andy: We’ve done a league double over somebody. And I suppose we should try and look for some positives and the positives I took from the game against Burnley was was DCL his application to his job, it would have been very easy for DCL not to bother trying to close the goalie down, you know, deep into added on time at the end of the first half. 

But he didn’t, he did his job, he stuck to it. And he got his just rewards for it. So well done, DCL. And I guess the other positives on the day, obviously, Branthwaite, that’s kind of going without saying these days. 

And probably to a lesser degree, James Garner. I mean, I was pleased for Andre Gomes that A got the start, B lasted 90 minutes, and see he seemed to he seemed to be trying to enjoy himself spraying the ball around, he does play with his head up, he might have the pace that we’d like him to have in the Premier League. 

But he’s an intelligent footballer and his distribution of the ball was probably as good as anything we’ve seen during this horrendous season. So DCL, Branthwaite, Ghana and Gomes all got thumbs up from me. 

Andy: The rest were kind of average at best. 

Paul: What do you think George:? 

George: A lot less kinder than Andy, I thought the first half was shameful. The worst I’ve seen. And like most Evertonians, we are now experts in worst because we’ve been watching it deteriorate since Moyes left, really. 

George: It’s been if you were to do a graph of the aesthetics of watching Everton play football, it from, you know, Moyes was no purest. But I would say that was the bottom of the barrel. The first half particularly was just I couldn’t believe my eyes. 

And then, as Andy says, to find out afterwards that this is all part of some master plan made me very, very, very cross indeed. People paid money. Come on, man. If you’re just going to boot the ball up in the air and hope for the second or third touch to connect to a teammate when most of the time, or at least half the time, it doesn’t. 

So there’s no flow to the game from the team you’re watching. You ought to tell the supporters you’re doing that so that they go, right, well, you can do that and I’ll go and watch Brentford and Brighton play because they like to pass to each other. 

I was furious and ashamed of what Everton did. And the goal was, you know, Andy’s right. It was fair play. And I’m on a course, you know, we’re fond of these men. I was thrilled for him, but it kind of summed it up, didn’t it? 

Actually, even with 10 men, then they play better football than we did. I was ashamed. Yeah, absolutely. And having said that, I was a bit thrilled with the effort and the application and the reward that they got from a much tougher night at Newcastle, you know, which we haven’t had time to talk about, really. 

But Saturday was absolutely gruesome. The grimmest football I think I’ve ever seen. 

Andy: Well, I mean, you’ve just mentioned a Newcastle game there, bro. I mean, there we you know, we were second best. Not by a long way, but we were second best in Newcastle for an hour. And when he made those three changes. 

Andy: That turned the game and we became much more cohesive, much more threatening. And OK, yes, it took a penalty and it took, if you like, the professional approach by Ashley Young to point that out to the referee. 

Whereas some of the other Blues had turned away and weren’t bothering. He persisted in his claims that there should have been a penalty and he was right. And he got it. But it does beg the question. If Dyche can change. 

If Dyche can make those three changes on an hour at Newcastle. And achieve something with it, in fact, in as much as we recovered, we recovered the point that we were in the process of losing. Why did he set out to play ugly against Burnley? 

And I’m not I’m not decrying Burnley there, but Burnley are below us and I’ve been below us all season. And I’ve been. You know, bar Sheffield United have been the Premier League’s whipping boys. So what on earth possessed him to go from a positive half hour at Newcastle to an almost ridiculously negative 90 minutes against Burnley at home in front of his own fans who for their support. 

And as you rightly said, you know, it’s an entertainment business. So were they entertained? Were they? 

George: There was one moment in the first half that made me think about a possible answer to that question, Andy, and why he did what he did. Which was Burnley played out from the back and got fed up with pressing for the moment. 

So we’re like 15 minutes in and their centre half has got the ball. He’s just north of the centre circle in their half and he’s dithering whether he’s going to go left or right or what he’s going to do. 

And the stadium is silent while we wait to see what his decision is or whether somebody had that been the other way round, had Tarkowski and or Branthwaite or anybody been dithering on the ball at Goodison, they would have been shouted down. 

They would get on with it. They would have come under pressure. So I think Everton are finding it a great deal easier to play away from home. And I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the squad, including the manager, don’t go, is it another home?

Oh, my hat. Right, boys, just bang the ball up the pitch and fight like mad to keep it up there. And that’s kind of what they did. And it was ghastly and vile and it might work. It might keep us in the division. 

Andy: Well, it might keep us in the division, but do we really want to keep watching it? 

George Um, that’s always up to you whether there’s always an off button, you know, nobody’s 

Andy: there’s enough button for people who are watching it on TV or listening on the radio but what about the season ticket holders who pay, you know, increasing amounts of money up front for next season 

George: Couldn’t agree more, Andy. They were exactly the people I thought of. 

Andy: Yeah, that’s the point you’re making. It’s an entertainment business and people are paying good money to be entertained and hopefully see our team win. You know, how many times have you said it or all of us have said it? 

If we play our best and lose, then fair enough. You know, the other team was clearly better. 

George: Apparently we’ve played our worst, deliberately. I am not amused, at all. 

Andy: No, it’s a bit baffling, but I mean, I suppose at the end of the day, a point from Newcastle and three points against Burnley, four points was probably what he was hoping for and wanted and got them. 

George: Of course, people might be listening to this going, what are you whining about? We won. 

Andy: which we were in the winter. 

George: It is for me, Andy, if it’s going to go like that, like it did, it was horrible. What did you think, Paul:? 

Paul: Well, actually, I was going to come at it from a slightly different angle and I feel somewhat dirty in saying what I’m about to say. To me, it sort of is almost like when somebody is really down at the very bottom, let’s take for example, I don’t know, somebody with an addiction problem, there comes a point where in order to recover, you have to recognize where you are and you have to throw away the all the disbelief that you’ve built around yourself in order to make a recovery. 

You have to strip yourself bare of falsehoods and you have to realize exactly who and what you are and what position that you’re in and to a degree, and I mean this with the greatest respect to all of those people that do have addiction problems. 

But I think Dyche recognises that about everything. Obviously, ours is not an addiction problem, but ours is a problem that actually needs some clarity of thought and it needs somebody to say that it doesn’t really matter for the last four or five games, home games of the season, we’ve got to win three of them, four, including the Burnley game in order to stay in the division. 

And the cost of not staying in the division is probably we go out of business or we go into administration. I think that was made clear in the accounts. Therefore, what do we have to do in order to achieve that objective? 

Three or four wins, whatever we get away from home, you know, is just a bonus. And I think that’s exactly what he did. He did show a little bit more of his hand against Newcastle, you know, with the substitutions. 

And that was great to see. But I think he really reverted back to absolute basics at the weekend. Acknowledged, I think he acknowledged that and this sounds ridiculous given Burnley’s position, but Burnley are a better footballing side than we are, so we couldn’t compete with them if we wanted to play a game of football. 

All we compete with is, as he said, to make the game as ugly as possible, to make it as difficult as possible for them and to feed off the scraps that that strategy created. And with a little bit of good fortune, albeit, as you say, Andy, DCL’s persistence and hard work created that good fortune. 

We got the goal. We didn’t concede a goal and we got the three points. And I think that’s unfortunately the further everybody’s now got to expect between now and the point where our safety is assured. 

Andy: Right. 

Paul: and it’s awful and it’s horrible and it’s totally at odds with the history of the football club and totally at odds with the purpose of the game as you correctly identified George in terms of being entertainment but it is the ultimate act of pragmatism I think. 

What we do in the summer assuming that we stay in the Premier League when quite you know quite a large number of the squad he’s eight or nine players out of contract, not many of those will will be retained and we won’t have money to to buy new players and we’ll probably lose a couple of our best players if not more. 

I don’t know but at the moment the focus is on you know the house is burning we’ve gotta get out of the building about survival. Getting out of the burning house means getting enough points to make sure that they’re not relegated and that was obviously done before the Commission results were known which you know no doubt we’ll talk about in a few minutes but to me it was just it was Dyche looking at the situation, looking at the resources he has available to him and recognizing his own limitations and he did he did what he thought gave us the best chance of winning and ultimately it did no matter how dirty or unpleasant it makes you feel. 

George: I enjoyed that. Thanks. Still, if you’re going to send me a video of the match, don’t waste your money. But I’ll take your points. 

Paul: Yeah, I mean, we can and we should, and no doubt we will at the end of the season, talk about all the things that need to change. But the fact is, nothing’s going to change between now and the end of the season, other than we’re going to get more of the same. 

Andy: Yeah, I guess we just have to suck it over and hope we get the results to keep us in the top flight. 

Paul: Well, yeah, because of the gross mismanagement of the club for many years, decades, but particularly, you know, I’m not giving any of the previous incumbents a free pass. Moshiri inherited a club that was in better condition than it is today, but still not in great condition. 

Paul: The mess that he’s created of the club puts us in the position that we’re in. And, you know, the accounts show that the fact that we’ve been through two commission hearings this year shows that. And the fact that even following today’s commission hearing decision, the decision is still not absolute and still carries forward at least into next season. 

George: What does that mean? What do you mean by that? Okay, so… 

Paul: I haven’t had time to read the whole document, even how many pages there are in it, but the Commission found that Everton were in breach of profitability and sustainability rules for the three years to the end of June 2023, and Everton admitted that. 

Paul: And Everton put forward some factors which, in their eyes, provided mitigation against the scale of the breach, and part of that was something I talked about previously, is the treatment of the interest costs that relate to the stadium. 

So, it’s clear to everybody that we’ve borrowed a lot of money, one, because we’re lost making, and two, because we’re building a stadium. Everton have said that the interest costs which apply to the stadium can be capitalised, which from an accounting point of view, is correct. 

And what that means in layman’s terms is that it doesn’t appear in the Profit and Loss Account, so therefore it’s not applicable to PSR. The Premier League have accepted an adjustment for last season, where we adjusted it by six and a half million. 

And for this second year, third year, 22 -23, I think the figure was 13 million, but as I say, I just quickly read the document because I’ve been busy on other stuff. They’ve accepted that for the time being, and they’ve applied a two -point penalty on the basis of accepting that, but they’ve left it open to challenge that decision on the interest costs and the treatment of the interest costs. 

George: Left it open for who to challenge? I know the Commission. 

Paul: But given the time of the year and given the short period between now and the end of the season, that Commission won’t hear that case until after the end of the season. And if such a penalty should apply because the Commission then finds against everything, that penalty would apply in the next season, not in this season. 

George: So we could start, we could survive, not get relegated and start next season on minus something points. 

Paul: points or whatever the figure is, yes. 

Andy: Yeah, because I noticed there’s a statement in the announcement that says in its written reasons the Independent Commission said the Premier League had asked for a five -point deduction for the club. 

So if the Premier League had asked for five and the Commission’s decided on two, is that where we take it then that if it’s reviewed again, that’s where we could get a minus three or more to start next season. 

Paul: No, because the two aren’t related. And again, I stress that I’ve not read the document fully, I just, literally two or three minutes just glancing through it. I think there were three points as to why it went from five to two. 

One was that everything admitted the breach. So we didn’t aggressively defend it like we did in the first commission hearing. Secondly, the scale of the breach, if you accept the treatment of interest payments. 

And thirdly, an element of the double jeopardy argument, so that we’ve already been penalized for some of these, two of these three years, therefore, we get two points back on that basis. So that takes us from those three very separate points, take us from five to two, which is why we’ve ended up at two. 

Beyond that, beyond the end of the season, if the commission says, well, actually, we don’t agree with you on the treatment of interest costs, and we’re adding those figures back into the calculations. 

Therefore, your PSR losses are bigger than we’ve given you credit for now. They will then apply a new points deduction, which would go into next season, assuming next season we’re in the Premier League. 

George: What happens if we’re not? Did we get points deducted from our starting point in the championship? 

Paul: I don’t think so George, I’d have to check. I don’t think that’s the case. 

George: Right. Is it punishment enough that you’ve been sent away from the top table? 

Paul: The Premier League has no jurisdiction within the, it’s a separate competition. If the Premier League and the EFL were two, were one single organisation, albeit different divisions, 

George: like they used to be before the Premier League came into play. 

Paul: it was the Football League then that would apply but the fact that they’re not means that it probably doesn’t apply. But the whole thing is a complete and utter mess. I mean the fact that we knew this beforehand didn’t we? 

Paul: The fact that they reached a decision but it’s a qualified decision and it’s a decision that then has to be referred back after the end of the season and in fact you know Everton I believe are I think they’ve already stated that they’re going to appeal the two points decision. 

That appeal process I think it would take us beyond the end of the season. 

George: But this is what Trump’s teaching everybody, isn’t it? The way to deal with the law is just to go, yes, well, I’m going to appeal that and back you go to square one. 

Paul: Yeah, I think everybody has the right to appeal. 

George: Well, obviously, yeah, it’s the new game in town, it seems to me. 

Paul: It just doesn’t make any sense from every perspective, but particularly from a sporting integrity point of view, that in theory we can finish the season on the 24th of May with our customary defeat against Arsenal and not know whether it’s us or Luton or somebody else that’s going to get relegated. 

George: It’s Brian Ricks, probably a bit of an ancient reference. It’s a showing for whoever gets the regulator’s job, they must now feel that they’re going to get carte blanche to sort this out, that what has happened this season publicly with football cannot be repeated, cannot. 

Paul: Absolutely, the damage it’s done to the Premier League and the Premier League’s reputation around the world must be huge. There’s already enough points to point at. There’s already enough subjects to point at in terms of how competitive the English League is now and the seemingly unfair treatment of the larger clubs as against the smaller clubs, as Richard Masters said. 

And then to throw in all of this regulatory nonsense, it just demonstrates that these people aren’t fit to run the organisation that they run. And unfortunately, evidence specifically and football generally, are suffering as a result of it. 

And I think we said a couple of weeks ago, if you were the CEO of a major sponsor of the Premier League, or indeed one of the Premier League clubs, you’d probably be having a little thought as to whether you wanted to continue to do it or whether it’s still represented the same value that it represented previously. 

I know I would. Because the values of the Premier League are somewhat tarnished now. And that’s a result of poor management and poor administration and poor regulation. 

Andy: and we suggest that tarnishing of the reputation will continue until any or all other clubs can show that their books are completely straight and honest. 

George: Oh, that’s absolutely right Andy. All I get from my mates, all up and down the country who support every other team, is the fun when Chelsea and City get the same treatment you’re getting. 

Andy: there you go. That’s the thing, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, Everton have lost 10 points, got four back, now been deducted another two, but one charge. Okay, over two different periods, but it’s one charge. 

Andy: When are we going to get, I mean, I know we can’t answer this, but there’s 115 charges against City. 

George: Oh, you couldn’t make it up Andy. No, no. 

Andy: I know, you know, it’s all very well saying that, you know, Wall City have probably employed the world’s greatest lawyers to tie the Premier League up in knots. 

George: Trump. 

Andy: But at the end of the day, they’ve got 115 charges. I’m sure the Premier League aren’t dumb enough to throw 115 charges at Man City unless they’ve got some belief that some or all of those charges are warranted. 

Paul: Most of those charges would never have come about if it hadn’t been for UEFA’s investigation. And UEFA’s investigation only didn’t. I mean, it did go forward. But it was very heavily restricted by the fact that with the UEFA competitions, there’s a time limit on when you can bring charges and, you know, City to a large extent escaped punishment on the basis that they managed to kick the can down the street for long enough to effectively for UEFA to run out of time in bringing some of those charges to boot. 

That isn’t the case in the Premier League. The Premier League can go on, as we know, with 777 for as long as it likes. 

Andy: So potentially then, the 115 charges against City could rumble on ad infinitum. 

Paul: Yes. 

Andy: and no decision could be made or might not be made for, well, ever. 

Paul: Yeah. Unless somebody bites the bullets and says, you know, we’ve got to settle this. And we’ve got to settle it out, effectively settle it out of court. Which is, again, you know, a tactic that extremely wealthy individuals or organizations often use. 

Paul: Brinkmanship, let’s take it to the… 

Andy: So, if it were to be settled at a court, that suggests a movement of money somewhere? 

Paul: Yes, it would, yes. I mean, I can’t imagine that City would, or any other club in that position, would agree to an out -of -court settlement whereby they lost 20 points. 

Andy: No. 

Paul:  They wouldn’t, but I mean, City are claiming that they are not guilty of any of the 115 charges. So, part of the agreement could be that actually they accept that they were guilty of some of those charges, but given the time that’s occurred and times moved on, just the fact that they’ve accepted the charges is sufficient. 

I’m just saying, I’m not saying that’s the right answer, I’m just saying that’s a potential solution going forward. If, you know, let’s say independent regulators, well, independent regulators is coming in, let’s say that there’s a new board within the Premier League within the next couple of years, Richard Masters, you know, has moved to one side, somebody with greater authority and seniority comes in, and the other Premier League clubs are going to say, whatever you do, let’s sort out all of the festering issues. 

Andy: Yeah. 

Paul: and let’s start on a clean slate and that means ultimately there’s going to have to be a compromise and that may actually just be City’s strategy here. You’ve said that on a long call. Yeah, we can sit here for as long as you like. 

George: We’ve got more lawyers than you’ve got on your committee. 

Paul: Yep. We can put more money into this than you can. So what would you like to do? and it’s damaging you far more than it’s damaging us. 

Andy: Yeah. Hey there mate. 

George: Well, it’s all part of the modern world because that is Trump’s playbook. He is stalling and delaying and appealing and they can’t do this. And I’m just going to do that to get to the White House in November and pardon himself for the whole damn lot. 

The City hasn’t got that, but they don’t need it. 

Paul: No, no, unfortunately, Everton aren’t in that position and we have to accept whatever’s thrown our way. I hadn’t looked on social media, I’m sure there’s going to be a lot of anger about the fact that we’ve been found guilty of a second charge and another points penalty, blah, blah, blah, blah. 

Paul: But the fact is that nobody comes out of this very well. 

George: Are you saying anger? Sorry, Paul:, just because I’m not on social media, that anger will be the fact that we’ve been found guilty. 

Paul: be directed at the Premier League, you know, the Premier League. 

George: If you’re in denial that Everton have done clearly, just look at the bottom line of the accounts figures and then tell me you think Everton’s a cleanly wrong club. You’d have to be mental. 

Andy: I tend to agree with that. I think there’s more and more people are beginning to realise that the club has been so shambolically run for so long, that whilst the Premier League haven’t covered themselves in glory in the way they’ve handled Everton’s misdemeanours, and the way the punishments have been meted out, the plain fact of the matter is that the root cause of why we’ve been, if you like, in court is because of the bozos that have owned and run the club for the last. 

George: I don’t support the Premier League. I don’t have six Premier League t -shirts in my bottom drawer. I have got six ancient Everton shirts because I’m an Everton supporter. And, you know, I just cannot believe you could get into a conversation with somebody who thinks that we haven’t done anything wrong and the Premier League are out to get us. 

We’ve got ourselves. It must be obvious, surely. We can’t waste energy on that kind of, you know, to be fair to him. And I like being fair to Sean Dyche. He said more or less the same thing the other day that had, you know, this all happened, didn’t happen on his watch. 

And he said, and it wouldn’t have happened on my watch because I would have gone, no, you can’t spend that money on those people. The club can’t afford for that to happen. And yet that mentality is why we’ve wasted all this cash and wasted all this goodwill. 

And now we’re, you know, the naughty boys and we are. I can’t believe people are in denial about it. It doesn’t make any sense to me to be in denial about it. 

Paul: But that’s the first time anybody at the club has even hinted at taking some responsibility for the club’s actions. 

George: Well, he had every right to say, I’ve already done this once, I did this at Burnley. Where I said, no, no, that’s not gonna happen. The club will be harmed. Burnley are really quite a well -run football outfit compared to us, they’re absolutely amazing. 

So he does know what he’s talking about, you know? And just to really put the cat among the pigeons, one remembers that Ancelotti arrived and said, I want Fernandez, not Fernandez, and James Rodriguez and somebody must have gone, his wages are north of 200,000 pounds a week. 

Yeah, well, we’ll pay that. And that kind of business behaviour is why we’re in the mess we’re in now. 

Andy: and 

George: Cooling. 

Andy: Hollywood managers and Hollywood sign -ins and we didn’t make a film. 

Paul: To stretch the Hollywood analogy further, we made the film, it wasn’t very good and nobody went to watch it. 

George: Here are the highlights of Everton versus Burnley. Yeah, that followed the film. 

Paul: made losses. And, you know, even, even to this, to this day, I tweeted earlier, or  later last week, about some of the stuff that I’m not having a go at the CEO as an individual, I’m just saying he is the CEO, the CEO, making false claims about the finances of the club. 

George: What’s the point? 

Paul: of that? I don’t know. It gains you maybe a few weeks, few months, in this case a few months, and space. Because it was only when I went back and actually read the transcript of what he’d said on the very good Radio 5 podcast series, which you revolve. 

I realized what he’d said. And it’s just, it’s completely false. He said that we had all of the financing in place for the stadium. The Accounts said we don’t have the financing in place for the stadium. 

He said that Farhad Moshiri had paid for the work on the stadium, or the work on the stadium, from equity, from capital. Yet the Accounts say, and in fact part of Everton’s defence in this commission, was no, no, no, no, we borrowed the money to build the stadium, and these are the interest costs, and these interest costs don’t apply to PSR. 

So until there’s some consistency, and perhaps, you know, if we look back to the start of the podcast when we were talking about Sean Dyche and him at least being honest, possibly just to himself as to what Everton needed to do on the pitch, unless there’s that same degree of honesty within the boardroom, and recognition of where we are, where we are, we’re still going, we’re going to continue to have these problems. 

George: I’m sure he’s not going to do anything about it. 

Paul: I think Colin Chong effectively does as he’s told and you know the other board member nobody’s ever seen signing a sign off. 

Andy: Maybe his statements on that podcast Paul: were made in all good faith in view of whatever information he may have had at hand and then he shouldn’t be. Obviously then the accounts when they’ve come out show a completely different picture which he may or may not have been aware of at the time he made the statements he did. 

I’m not saying he was duked or anything but 

Paul: I don’t accept that at all, Andy:. You can’t be a director of a business and not know the basics. 

George: You can’t go on a podcast without having the information at your fingertips. 

Paul: Do we have a senior debt package in place or agreed? Yes or no? It’s very simple. Yes, I recall we had that meeting with JP Morgan last month and the documents on my desk and I signed it last Tuesday. 

It’s done. The money is that we got from Farhad Moshiri. Did we spend it on players and on wages and on general expenses? The monies that we borrowed, what did we spend that on? Did we spend it on payment to Laing O’Rourke or did we spend it on players’ wages and general expenses? 

You know that. I mean, if you’re running a business, you know that. You know instinctively where the money’s coming from or you should do at least, where the money’s coming from and then where the money is going and how that money is going to be treated in the accounts because you start the year off and you have a budget and you know roughly give or take exceptional circumstances how your finances are gonna play out throughout the year. 

You know, you’re gonna make a loss, you’re gonna make a profit, you’re gonna break even. We need to sell to players in order to break even. We need to finish higher than 14th. Whatever the circumstances are, you know that at the beginning of the season. 

Okay, Chong will say that he came in in the middle of the summer and that possibly didn’t have the same preparation time that a permanent CEO would have. And to refer to him, he doesn’t have the experience nor I think the qualifications to be in that position. 

But that’s what a director of a company, that’s the responsibility that the director of a company takes on board. And he, I think he failed in his duties to be honest with the fan base when he did those podcasts. 

And I think the accounts themselves demonstrate that collectively the board, the major shareholder and the executive team failed in their responsibilities to run the club in a prudent and proper manner. 

Andy: Yeah. Yeah, that’s obvious. 

Paul: You know, I, I said, I thought we would lose 45 million. I think I said actually 35 to 45 million in the week before in last week’s podcast. I saw figures from various investment banks around the same figures in presentations that were being made to potential investors saying that the losses for 22/23 would be in the order of something below 50 million pounds. 

Paul: And yet here we are. I’m at 89.1 million pounds. 

George: Is that tantamount saying they were lying to people who they were hoping to attract to the investors? 

Paul: It’s difficult to say that they were lying, because all of these presentations are presented on the basis of acting in good faith, and they are projections as against statements of fact. So they would argue that no, they weren’t lying. 

I would argue that you would be derelict in your duties if you didn’t realise that what you were saying was unlikely to happen. So I would argue that you would be derelict in your duties if you didn’t realise that what you were saying was unlikely to happen. 

George: Hmm. And I got to thinking. So I believe you know, the first time was just sorry,  back to the very first time I went to Britain and I was 16 years of age and. And what it felt, you know, I mean, I was a 16 year old boy, but it felt like this extraordinary organization that you just won the league and. 

Battered somebody for one the day I went there and now. A lifetime later, I just you know, when was the last time we three really, really would chirpy about this any aspect of. The way the club was being handled, I suspect it was probably when we appointed Ancelotti and you did kind of go, oh, my, I don’t believe it. 

We finally got somebody with some total class. And half a season later, he’s thrown his hands up going, I don’t know. I don’t know why we shit. It’s an extraordinary story, extraordinary. 

Paul: There was a there was a lovely video on on Twitter and forgive me for not knowing who tweeted it but it was a dad with his two young daughters and his daughters were probably I don’t know six, seven, eight, nine something of that nature and it was their first visit to Goodison and they’re actually in the main stand and it looked Andy as if they weren’t far from where you sit and it’s sort of fairly central but towards the back of the of the main stand and the look on their faces when Z Cars started and you know the players walked out onto the pitch the absolute joy and excitement and the thrill and the and the wonder of it all and what you just said George resonates so much with with that because but those kids will remember that day for the rest of their lives and yeah they’re going they’re going into this with all of the hope all of the expectation that we all go into when we start supporting our football club and I just hope that they’re not they don’t have the same disappointments that we have. 

Andy: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, there’s a whole generation in. 

Paul: Yeah. 

Andy: They’ve never seen anything remotely like the pledges that we’ve seen over the years. 

Paul: No, I can’t answer this question. But I think it’s worth asking. The question is, what, what actually can we all we, you know, we talk about the fans being such an important club, the fans being the custodians of the club, you know, the true custodians of the club. 

Paul: What is it actually that we can do to change to change all of this? And I’m not, I’m not, I’m not providing the answer, because I don’t really know what the answer is. You know, we tried to be reasonable, we tried to present cogent arguments put forward, things like the fan advisory board, fans forum, shareholders association, stuff of that nature. 

We’ve had protests, peaceful protests, we’ve had coach greetings, we had the 1878 who I think do a fantastic job, raising money and putting banners that you know, along the Gwladys streets and everything else. 

And yet, the club seems impervious to all. 

George: Yeah, it was an embarrassment to the club. You feel I don’t know, you can’t say that. I think the answer to your question is, all you can do is hope. I’ve got nothing left. You know, I’m not surprised that people are not greeting them because they’re tired, they’re exhausted, the best that you know, you could feel it in that crowd on Saturday. 

The silence is all that those fans can do is hope that somehow something clicks and works. You know, and I’ve been saying for weeks, we just need to stroke a lot. Well, that was a stroke a lot, wasn’t it? 

Andy: I think, yeah, I think it was, because you’re right, the crowd was less than vocal through the first half or through large tracts of this first half, but having gotten the lead and not conceded early in the second half, the crowd then got back into it. 

George: But, you know, got back into hoping we dealt with 10 man Burnley. That’s where we’re at. But that’s what we did. And that’s all they can do. We’re playing Chelsea on Monday night. We could beat them, Andy:. 

George: I’ve watched them twice recently. They’re beatable. Whether it’s with aerial ping pong, I don’t know. 

Paul: Well, the one thing we do know is that this is probably the poorest Chelsea team in many, many years, isn’t it? And they’re in a difficult position. And actually, if a game is set up for us to do well in, it’s this type of game, a game where we can give the opposition the ball, and hopefully we can get them on the counter -attack if their play breaks down. 

Paul: Yeah, I know a number of Chelsea supporters who can’t, for different reasons, just can’t wait for their season to be over. 

Andy: I think there’s an awful lot of football fans at the minute that wait for the season to be over. 

George: I’ve forgotten, sorry, I’m just remembering that Dyche picked Ashley Young on Saturday and then kept him on the pitch. 

Andy: That baffled me as well, because he was dreadful for us to have. 

George: Paul: just used the word breakaway and one of the commentators said on the stream I was listening to, Everton trying to break quickly through Ashley Young and I went, that’s an oxymoron. That can’t happen. 

George: If he is the best we’ve got in the manager’s opinion, then I hope he deserves the money he’s getting, both of them, because it’s just pitiful. 

Paul: Yep. 

George: It’s a busting flush. Would you like a recipe to do? 

Paul: You know what, George:, I was just going to say, why don’t we finish on a high? 

George: Well, boys and girls, two weeks ago, I sort of called my end of the podcast to an end because my wife is preparing Toulouse sausage and stuff. And somebody’s asked for a recipe. So have you got your pens and paper? 

Can’t believe I’m doing this. But she’s written it out. So I’m going to pay respect to her. 500 grams of Toulouse sausage. I said to her, what’s 500 grams to people who listen to Talking the Blues? You know. 

Or a lump of sausage. It’s about a pound of sausage, yeah? Yeah. Oil, I use rapeseed. A large onion.  sharp apple, she brackets Granny Smith, 25 grams of plain flour, 300 millilitres of stock. Now we had a discussion about that. Is that like half a pint? 

Paul: It’s slightly more than half a pint. 

George: Okay. Vegetable or chicken, salt and pepper, apple juice to taste. Put a dash of oil. Are you still with this? Put a dash of oil in a small deep frying pan with the lid. Heat it and then add the sausage. 

George: Brown and there’s no – 

Andy: You take the lid off first, I’d say, 

George: try and feed the sausage through the little tiny steam hole in the top of the lid add the sausage yeah brown it on as many sides as you can she’s absolutely right about that it’s tricky sausage obviously but it’s really worth it take it out of the pan add a tablespoon full of oil and then fry gently at first until it’s softened and then up the heat to brown it off when the onion is nicely charred add flour, cook for two minutes stirring constantly and then stop slowly stirring until the sauce is smooth.

I have to say my wife’s gravy is like restaurant standard: add iced apple, oh sorry diced apple – her writing is hilarious um uh one part I said to her what’s this Jules I had 200 onions…

Anyway add diced apple and apple juice to taste put the sausage back in the pan cover it and cook it over gently for about 20 minutes reduce the sauce if need be and serve with mashed potatoes and vegetables-  brackets George: likes broccoli – and mustard and HP sauce and we should all I will cook every single member of the Talking the Blues family that if we beat Chelsea, when we beat chelsea four more Ben Godfrey comes on and finally gets his first goal for the club, James Garner doesn’t come back off the post it goes in we’ll see 

Paul: Thank you for that, George:. I’ll look up who sent me the message and I’ll make sure that he gets a copy of it. 

George: Yeah, because a fair few thousand people might be going, is that bloke on drugs? Well, yes. 

Paul: He did very funnily say, can you ask George: for the recipe for the Toulouse sausage? And I said, yeah, of course. And he did very funny right back and said, and if George: says, just slap it in between two slices of white bread. 

Don’t bother. 

George: All new tonight at 6… 

George: No, it’s uh, my wife is a serious one thing you did say 

Paul: George, before we go, not everybody lives close enough to Toulouse to get some Toulouse sausage so is there a substitute ?

George: Yeah, I said that to Jules, and she said, Yeah, it’s Cumberland sausage. Right. And my memory of Cumberland sausage from, you know, planning in the Lakes and all that. She’s right. 

Really, really lovely sausage and that is available certainly in the north of England. 

Paul: Okay, and would you buy that in a coil or would you buy it in links? 

George: Paul:, you go to the butcher and you go and give me 500 grams! We’ll find this Cumberland. 

Do you want a link or do you want to put it on? Yeah, I don’t know. 

Paul:  Lovely stuff. All right, proves that we can have a laugh if nothing else. We have to, don’t we? We do, we do. All right, so we’ve covered the Commission, we’ve covered the Burnley game, we’ve covered the Accounts, and finally we’ve covered George’s Toulouse sausage. 

What more could you ask for from our podcast? 

George: that we beat Chelsea that we know. 

Sorry, let me correct that, that we play against Chelsea, that you respect the people who are in the squad, Ghana, Onana, Gueye, whoever you pick. 

and you should not pick Ashley Young, you say to them, come on boys, you’re good football players, give these bastards a game. 

Paul: I suppose if there’s one place for Ashley Young to be it’s Chelsea, you can be a Chelsea pensioner. 

George: Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. 

George: Well, that’s just shocking. And when Ashley phones in, it wasn’t me who said that. I just said you shouldn’t be in. 

I can’t even count. 

Paul: if you see him going down the right wing in a red coat actually being overtaken by somebody in a red coat all right, let’s leave it there George, Andy, thank you so much and I enjoyed that far more than I thought I was going to and everybody’s listened and feels the same at the end onwards and upwards Yeah. 

Please, Commission Beating Blues. 

Come on. It’s actually written tape. That’s what it’s for. 

Paul: Guys. Thanks so much. Thanks to everybody for listening and we’ll speak to you very soon.