Paul:  

Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, depending on where in the world you are and what time of the day you’re listening to this slightly delayed Talking the Blues Podcast. George and Andy, how are you both? 

George: Tip top mate. 

Andy:Yeah, pretty good.

Paul:  Have you both been on the grass? 

George: What does that mean? 

Paul: Well, it’s what Sean Dyche says when you’re in top form and you’re ready to play.

Andy: I thought you meant something quite different. 

George: Yeah, so did I actually. I should have been before we watched that on Saturday. Well, I should think about issuing it and remind you what a waste of grass that would be. Maybe Sean thinks the same way as both of you. 

Paul:  I’m not going to say anything. Right. And so, well, look, on the face of it, if you are coming into this as a totally impartial observer, and if you hadn’t seen any Premier League football for quite some time, you’d think everything in five games unbeaten, is it four or five points above relegation spot, given what expectations were at the beginning of the season, what is there to complain about? 

Andy: Yeah, I don’t think any of the three of us think that way. What is there to complain about? A complete lack of entertainment, an almost complete lack of application to the job in hand, precious little fire in any bellies, woeful entertainment value. 

I mean, I don’t know where to begin with that, to be honest with you. Obviously, this is only my personal opinion. But from a team that played quite positively. and proactively the Ipswich to record a 2 -0 victory on the road and a victory that we all agreed could have been double that score or maybe even more had they taken their chances. 

We then turn up against Fulham and I just couldn’t believe what I was watching. I thought it was dreadful and I mean you know from my own perspective in 56 years of watching Everton Football Club we have seen some dross down the years and we’ve seen dross from a number of managers but Saturday against Fulham was shocking in my opinion. 

The team didn’t appear to have any cohesion about them. They lacked ideas. I, seriously, even when Beto scored at the end, I could barely bring myself to celebrate. I was that fed up with watching what was absolutely, in my opinion, nondescript football. 

George: And if that was an advert, given it’s the 5 .30 game on Saturday, so it’s on, albeit Sky, if the television audience tuned in to watch an advert for the Premier League, they must still be wondering when that advert is going to start, because what was served up as an advert was dreadful. 

It was a shocking advert for the Premier League. Not that I’ve got any qualms over the Premier League looking bad. But, you know, if that was top -flight football in the UK, then heaven help us. It was awful. 

And we were lucky to get a point. I think it would go a bit further than that, to say very lucky. I would only add that, you know, what’s interesting about what Andy’s just said, because they’re not going to disagree with it, except I thought Fulham played some rather nice football. 

You thought, well, how come we didn’t play rather nice football when that man was managing us? Because consistently, we most certainly did not. That’s another question, I think. And what Andy was saying about the shape, but not the, you know, the kind of lack of gumption. 

Actually, when I thought about it, and I’m glad we didn’t sort of, you know, we’ve had a couple of days to think about it. I thought all the players tried hard. I wouldn’t fault any of them for effort. 

But Andy’s larger point is, to what point was it? that effort applied. It certainly wasn’t cohesive and it certainly wasn’t to a plan that was visible or a shape or a philosophy or anything really. It was hard work to watch. 

Andy: Yeah, I mean, you’re right. Individually, the players probably did give as good as they were able to. I’m not suggesting that. What I’m suggesting was that despite the player’s best efforts, well, you said it, there was no plan. 

Paul:  The only visible or noticeable plan was route one lump it forward and hope for the best. I mean, I was watching Pickford. throughout the game and I thought literally right from the start Pickford did not look a happy bunny at all. 

Andy: I don’t know why. He’s got very little to reproach himself all but to my mind he did not look like a happy bunny on Saturday and quite rightly he was livid when Fulham scored and I do give Fulham some credit. 

They did play some good football and they did look as though they had a plan and they’re certainly getting more out of him. We’re not here to discuss Fulham, we’re here to discuss Everton and I was bitterly, bitterly disappointed in what the football club served up to its loyal fans who again turned out in ridiculous numbers. 

The question I would love to ask somebody and obviously that has to be the manager, is how come the same 11 players that started at Ipswich played so positively and freely and yet they turn out of Goodison in front of their home fans and the overall performance, like I said in my opinion, it was dreadful, absolutely dreadful. 

I’m sorry. You know I just just begged Billy to me what I was watching. Well sorry Paul, you haven’t said a word yet. I’m still struggling to come to terms with it because on the back of not having been defeated for four games beforehand and a largely positive performance. 

Paul:  Against Ipswich, albeit recognising Ipswich’s limitations. One would have thought that we’d gone into the game against Fulham with a slightly more assertive, aggressive, positive attitude than we did do. 

But I think it comes back to this thing about Dyche just has one way of playing football and it is anti -football. It’s not football. In any combative situation, you have an object and you have a subject and the subject normally is the one that goes after the object, if you understand what I’m saying. 

And it seems to me that… Oh, so you have the aggressor and you have the passive partner in any relationship, in any battle, in any form of combat. The attacker versus the defender in terms of, you know, schoolboy football, schoolyard football, sorry, from years ago. 

And it just seems to me that, I mean, this is hardly a revelation, but Dyche has no plan beyond being the subject, being the defender, being the team, the side that has to subject itself to whatever it is that the opposition puts in front of him. 

He’s not proactive in any sense. He’s not aggressive in any sense. He never takes a game to the opposition. And you would think that, you know, out of 38 games, 50-50, most of the home games, you take the game to the opposition, and most of the away games, you sit back, you soak up whatever pressure the home team applies, and then you go about your game in terms of, you know, scoring, making it difficult for the opposition. 

He doesn’t do any of that. It’s just like one single game plan, regardless of who you’re playing. The only thing he did positive on Saturday was obviously really, really late on when he brought Branthwaite on to move Keane up front. 

Andy: That was to me the only positive thing the manager did on Saturday was he obviously realised, you know that we needed something else up front and we you know we’ve we’ve joked about it in the past but Keane is a good finisher with the ball at his feet and that’s why he was lumped up that’s why he was sitting up front alongside Beto to hopefully find a finish as it was Beto was the one who found the finish but….

Paul:  Andy sorry to cross you let’s analyze that for a second why did Branthwaite end up on the pitch? 

Branthwaite ended up on the pitch because McNeil was injured and McNeil took it upon himself to effectively walk off the pitch and walk straight down the tunnel because he was injured at the time of the substitution Branthwaite was warming up on the on the touchline and he was closer to the Gwladys street than he was to the actual um you know area where the manager and teams are the halfway line. 

It was not in any sense a proactive substitution and if you made the decision that we needed to go two up front, i .e. we needed to go 4 4 2, who on earth decides that a combination that then includes keen up front is better than a combination of two number nines, Calvert-Lewin and Beto? 

All he did was a like -for -like substitution in terms of one forward comes off, a defender comes on and then he substitutes one defender for another and puts that defender higher up the pitch. It made no sense whatsoever. 

And I know in particular I think you both were very early into the story that keen is a fantastic finisher in the box. He is, but he’s not a forward. He’s a defender. He’s a defender who happens to be pretty good if he ends up in the opposition box. 

Yeah, they were looking for a stroke a luck again. In what world is Keane and Beto a better front two than Beto and DCL? Well, no, it shouldn’t even be a question, should it? It was a question that Dyche asked himself and he came up with the wrong answer. 

Andy: Okay. You know, we got lucky and we scored a very good goal. Not least of all, with Ashley Young’s contribution. I was just going to say, I think Ashley Young deserves an awful lot of credit for his part in that goal, because I think the Ashley Young of 10 years ago would have taken on the volley. 

And the Ashley Young of today used his experience and his noggin to put the ball back into the six-yard area. I think he deserves an awful lot. And I’ve been the first to slag Ashley Young off in the past, and I’ll readily admit that. 

George: I’m eating an awful lot of humble pie, but I think he deserves an enormous amount of credit for that ball back into the area. He’s currently playing some of his best football that he’s played at Everton. 

He probably is, actually. So, yeah. He’s keeping two international right backs on the bench and with good reason too. It’s just a fantastic sort of paradox in the middle of all this mess. Because what you’re talking about about Keane and Beto is just a mess, isn’t it? 

I mean, it was desperation time. And Dyche got wonderfully lucky and so did Everton. Yeah. And what came beforehand was, you know, we’ve all talked about how isolated DCL looks at times, you know, when playing for Everton. 

Paul:  I’ve never seen him look more isolated. Certainly DCL and the midfield. And it was just huge this weekend. And, you know, and then we start thinking about, well, how is it that, you know, for like such a good team, that they’re a decent team, and they’ve got a good manager, and they’re obviously well coached. 

George: And how is it that Iwobi played in a fashion that, you know, he seldom played when he played for us? Well, they gave him a good deal more responsibility than we ever gave him. Well, yeah, I don’t think that’s much down to Fulham. 

Paul:  I think it’s more down to Everton than it is down to Fulham. That was one of the worst. That was one of the most shocking performances that Everton have played at home for years and years and years. And that includes some very, very, you know, significant candidates in recent years. 

The list of bad performances, it could have, grows longer and longer by the week. that one is as close to the top of the list as you can possibly get? 

George: Well, that’s what I said to you guys in that text. 

Andy: I just couldn’t get the difference in a week from playing really well at Ipswich to playing so shapelessly at home against Fulham. And that’s no disrespect to Fulham. It wouldn’t matter who the opposition were. 

Andy: As you said, we’ve come off a good win. We’re on four games without defeat. Back at home, there was no fire. There was no collective fire in the belly for me. It was just lacking all the way through. 

George:  They’re just so disappointing I would say, Andy, the difference was that Ipswich were very, very poor and it was clear within 10 minutes or less, actually, that Fulham were nothing like Ipswich at all, that they’re a proper football team with a very heavy, solid back four and some talent up front. 

And I suspect collectively, Everton thought, oh, no. Because there’s no character in the tie, there’s no Peter Reid going, no, that’s not happening. That’s not happening. I’m in charge of this. You’ll have that kind of attitude, which we haven’t had, despite the best efforts of Seamus Coleman, for a very long time. 

It’s just sheer character and class as well. And the team looked like it went, oh, no, Fulham, they’re a bit good, aren’t they? And if you’ve got that kind of collective mentality, what we watch is what happens. 

Paul:  Well, I think you’re right, George, and I think you’re absolutely spot on. It comes back to this philosophy under Dyche and this total dumbing down of expectations, that if we average a point a game, we stay in the Premier League. 

Andy: To be fair to Dyche, we’ve had that mentality for an awful long time. Yeah, but he’s the master of it. And we can only talk about who we have currently as managers yet. Well, I accept that. But how many times did we hear Mr Moyes say your first objective is to get to 40 points? 

I need to say that at the start of the season. The dumbing down of expectations has been prevalent within the The DNA of Everton football club for a lot longer than Sean Dyches ever been late with the You know, we’ve all been we’ve all the only person genuinely the only person Who was completely and utterly refused to accept  the dumbing down of expectation is Neville Southall Because he’s the only one who said second isn’t good enough. He’s the only person who’s You know connected with the club who’s come out publicly and said if you accept finishing second, you know You’re a failure. 

The objective is to go out and win win every game win every trophy He’s the only person connected with Everton football club who’s ever come out and spoken as bluntly like that everybody else in the last 20 to 30 years, oh, well, you know, knife to a gunfight, blah, blah, blah. 

And it’s tiresome and that’s, and now we’re, now we’re accepting, you know, or we’re expected to accept that a one-one draw with Fulham is accepted or not.

Paul:  Just, just to, just to defend Moyes in the years before he moved on. :  

6th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 7th, 7th. 58 points, 65 points, 63 points, 61 points, 54 points. 

Andy: I’m not arguing with his records, Paul. So that’s much more than 40 points a season. I get totally what you’re saying about, you know, that was the first objective, get to 40 points and see where we go beyond that. 

 And we’re nowhere near that. We are, you know, one point a game and that is the absolute limits of our expectations. You had a go at me two podcasts ago for saying we have to accept where we are. And you said we don’t have to accept where we are. 

I’m now saying we don’t have to accept where we are and you’re defending him. 

Paul: No, no, I’m not defending him at all. But you’ve just said the expectation is a point a game. I know it’s not acceptable to you. 

Do you think it’s acceptable to me? No, I don’t think it’s acceptable to you, but collectively everyone associated at Everton Football Club needs to draw a line under this level of abject mediocrity. 

Andy:  We have to aim high, we have to aim big, not unrealistically. unrealistically, we’re going to win every game till now at the end of the season, and we’re going to pip the Shite for the title on the last day of the season. 

George: That’s not going to happen. But surely we can be a bit more positive than, well, let’s hope we can get a point a game and survive. I think what Paul was saying was that he takes that to be Dyche’s philosophy, and he was saying that Moyse’s philosophy was a good deal more ambitious than that. 

Andy: Yeah, okay. But I entirely agree with you, and I wouldn’t want to punch your passion, because we are so far off any kind of pace that anybody could pretend to be proud of. And I think what you were saying before about how long it has been since there’s been a mentality within that club. 

This is what I feel in my heart, I realize today, is that what has replaced it is a mentality, a collective mentality that goes, well, really, why should I bother a lot? I’m not a scouser, I’m not, you know, they bought me, I’m here, they don’t pay as well as I know all the other players that I play against every week go, how much are you getting? 

George: Blimey, we’re getting twice that at Tottenham, la, la, la, la. Our money isn’t everything, but if money isn’t everything, you have to find something very special indeed to replace it with in order to motivate well-paid young men to give more than what we’re getting. 

Andy: I don’t think Sean Dyche has got the more in football terms, I don’t believe he’s got any philosophy in football terms that would make us proud of Everton and I don’t actually believe Moyes had either, but what Moyes did have was that the team believed in him and so you kind of, you know, I remember watching him thinking it’s not very pretty but it works because they believe in what they’re doing and that’s fine, that was who they are. But if you go through the list of managers since then, where has been the one with any ideals about football? Allardyce, Benitez, Frank Lampard, Silva even? Martinez has year one, maybe. 

George:  That was it Andy. Yeah. So, but in order to move the mentality, move the clock from, well, you know, why should I bust me balls? Because that’s what I watch. The players tried hard on Saturday, you know, no one wants to lose. 

Andy:  You know, we’ve all played football, nobody ever wants to lose. You’re always, you know, going, oh, come on, just fluke, you know, they’re setting their arms off, it doesn’t matter. But through the years of the sort of the crookedness that has made Everton lose points because we’ve done business badly because we’ve been badly run. 

Andy: And as week after week, you were saying the other day, Howard Kendall’s anniversary comes up. What did you get from Everton about it? Nothing. So why should, I’m just going to pick a name out of the hat, why should James Garner care if the club don’t care? 

George: Who’s Howard Kendall, James? I’m not sure. The stand’s called out, you know, I’m doing the man a disservice because he might be an aficionado. But you get my point, which is the soul of the club, which is what we are. 

Because we’re the fans, 39,000 of them every week, and everybody across the globe listening to this, maybe, or not listening to this. We care, seemingly, more than people who are being paid money none of us have ever seen. 

Paul:  To not really, really care, not really. It’s worse than that, though, isn’t it, George? Because we’re actually getting robbed of the experience of the last season of Goodison. Well, quite, yeah. This should be a celebration of not only the current episode, but it should be a celebration of a team that’s played at Goodison Park since 1892. 

And all bar four seasons, every single season, in the top division. And it should be a celebration of evidence, obviously, our history, the fact that we’ve been in the league from day one, but also the fact that we’ve been in the top division all bar four seasons for all of our time. 

Since 1892 and before that, obviously, it should be a massive celebration of we are an absolutely unique football club in English football. And yet nobody at the club seems to recognize that. Nobody at the club not only seems to recognize that, but seems to demand what, therefore, is required of that exceptional football club, which we are, in its final season at Goodison. 

And, you know, three or four minutes into the game, Everton was doing a passable impression of The library, Highbury, it was deadly quiet. And it was deadly quiet because everybody knew, not only from the team selection, but from the way that we started the game, what they were about to see for the next 90 minutes. 

And why is it that? First of all, why isn’t the manager recognizing that and doing something about it? Well, because he’s not capable of doing anything beyond what he’s doing. But secondly, why isn’t there anybody in a football club that’s saying, we owe it to ourselves, we owe it to our football club and we owe it particularly to the people that turn up at the football ground every single week. 

The 3,000 that turn up at every single away game, the 38,000 plus obviously the away support at Goodison week in, week out, we owe it to those people to entertain, to compete, to finish as high up the league as we possibly can, and to sign off in this season in particular, to provide it, you know, a spectacular, like final act of a, what is it? 

It’s been a hundred and thirty, a hundred and thirty-two years at Goodison Park, about a hundred and thirty three years by next year at Goodison Park, yet nobody, nobody is talking in these terms, let alone demanding that these terms be met, and it is an absolute disgrace. 

And there are lots of people in and around the club who have served the club well, but have enjoyed the benefits of serving the club, both in terms of the revenue that they’ve received, the income that they’ve received, but also in terms of the recognition that they’ve received, but yet, very, very, very, very few of these people are demanding what I believe we should be demanding of any evidence inside, 

But particularly in this last season at Goodison, and I don’t see any of that, and I don’t see any of it from former players, I don’t see it from I don’t see it from the manager, I don’t see it from the director of football, oh, oh, oh, and I don’t see it from anybody else associated with the football club. 

Well, Southall is one of the very, very few exceptions, yes, and And I don’t include him in those comments, you know, why, at what point are we gonna wake up and recognize that at some point in the future, if this season continues in the manner in which it is, and I think, I think, I don’t think we’re gonna get relegated, I think we’ll be okay. 

But at the end of the season and beyond, what is it when somebody wakes up and says, Christ, what, what an amazing opportunity we’ve missed in that final season at Goodison. We miss the opportunity of it being a total celebration of whatever football covers about, what the fans mean to us, what the community means to us, what the city means to us. 

None of that is apparent. We’re playing survival football with a manager who knows nothing other than how to play. survival football. Yet we have everything else around us that suggests we can do so much better. 

And it is so, so, so frustrating that nobody is demanding more from the players, from the manager and from everybody else associated with the football club. I think that’s about as spot on as I’ve ever heard you. 

George: And I know the answers too, and I know that if you, if you raised all those things, everybody go, oh, shut up, will you? It’s embarrassing. We’re just, all we want to do is just get through the season, stay in the Premier League, get to Bramley-Moore and start again. 

New owners. That’s where we’re at. Shut up, Paul. It’s annoying. That’s exactly the feeling I’ve got as well. And I don’t mean, I don’t mean I’m in agreement with them. Let me finish Andy. Let me finish Andy. 

What you’re, what you’re actually saying, Paul, is an opportunity has been missed shockingly in the sense that every single week there should have been as many old timers, people, you know, every week you could have brought out a different Everton team onto the pitch and played on the, on the screen at half time memories of, you know, great performances from great teams or, you know, or more realistically, 

but it’s not, it’s not been thought of. It’s not been thought of because survival is the mindset. And that’s kind of what I meant about why should I bother? And frankly, I was just writing to somebody before that if these new owners get the gig and my God, I hope they do. 

I hope they have got the most enormous room, the place clear. and put some fresh air and some fresh hope and thought and energy into it because of what you’ve just said, and I hadn’t thought of it before, but you’re 100% right. 

Paul:  It’s just pathetic really. And that’s what the team look like on Saturday as well. Yeah, just to me, is it four or five games that we played at home this season? So we’ve got either 14 or 13 home games and maybe a couple of cup games, depending upon the look at the draw and the FA Cup. 

But each of those games should be like, should be a cup fan.

Andy: From the visitors point perspective Paul, sorry to interrupt, it’s all their final games at Goodison. It’s the last time they’ll face Everton Football Club at Goodison Park. 

Paul:  Absolutely. And they should be coming to Goodison thinking, Christ, this is the last time that Everton will ever play us at Goodison Park. We are going to get bombarded. We’re going to get bombarded by the team, by the manager, by everybody associated with Everton Football Club and with every single one of the 39,000 Everton fans. 

Less than that, obviously, are way supporters who are going to attend that game. Especially a game under floodlights, when there’s probably four, five, six, maybe seven games. I don’t know what the exact figure is, that we will play under floodlights at Goodison again. 

They should be quaking in their boots when they walk out onto the pitch alongside Everton, hearing Z-cars and seeing the stadium absolutely crammed to capacity like it is every single week, with thousands of people wanting to buy tickets, but can’t buy tickets because there’s not enough space for Evertonians at Goodison Park for any of the remaining games. 

Yet we’re treated with this complete and utter crap, this complete and utter dirge, this complete and utter exhibition of anti-football served by Everton Football Club and served by Sean Dyche. I can’t speak more passionately than that, and it drives me mad, absolutely drives me mad. 

It is such a wasted opportunity, and it is such a dereliction of duty, and it’s just an abdication, and it’s such a lack of recognition of who we are, where we are, what the time of who we are and where we are is. 

It demonstrates absolutely. absolutely no understanding of who Everton Football Club are and what we should be and what we should be doing for the fans, for the football club, for the players and for the managers. 

It should be an absolute privilege for everybody who attends any game of Goodison for the rest of the season to attend. It should be a privilege for any manager to manage Everton Football Club at Goodison Park for any of the remaining games and it should be an absolute privilege for any footballer who puts on the Royal Blues shares of Everton when they step out on that football pitch because there are so few limited opportunities left to do so and yet they do so in the footsteps of footballing greats and there’s no recognition of that. 

There’s no acknowledgement of that. The acknowledgement perhaps is not that important but there’s no recognition and there’s no acceptance of they are the footprints in which they stand and they are the standards ultimately by which they should be judged and what they do between now and the end of the season the last season of Goodison should be a celebration of what we’ve done in the past but it should also be a um what’s the word I’m looking for it it should be a uh should be something a window on the future has absolutely it has to be a foundation has to be a window has to be a a stepping point to a brighter and better future

And yet what we’re doing is going out on an absolute whim. In fact it’s worse than a whim we are, we are absolutely abusing our history and what actually everything football club should and does mean to anybody associated with football it is disgusting it is absolutely disgusting.

 I’m sorry I don’t know if this might sound like an emotional rant it is emotional because it means so much and you only get sometimes well almost all times in life you only get one opportunity to do the right thing at the right time and we are failing spectacularly to do that at everything football club at this pivotal time in our future it what sorry in in our history and and in our future when do the Friedkins take over I suspect it’ll be before the end of the year the calendar year yeah before the end of the calendar year so sometime probably mid -december well then you’ve got a chance that the 2025 will be some part of that of what you’ve just been talking about you shouldn’t be down to the new owners. 

Paul:  I agree with you, George, that, you know, the opportunity…

George:  Oh, clearly it is, Paul, because whoever owns the place now is not giving a shite. Have they? You can’t see it. No, no, no. I’m sorry to say this, nor are any of the people who have been in and around the club for the last 20 years. 

Because if they were, we wouldn’t be seeing what we’re seeing. Sometimes you just have to say it as it is. Maybe just this evening is the evening when I say it, but that’s how I see it. Good for you. 

I’m not going to listen to you. No, no, I’m not. I’m neither asking for agreement or disagreement or acceptance or anything else. I’m just saying it. And I don’t mean that in any disrespect to you and Andy or any of the listeners. 

George:  We just have to say it. I think we just have to say it as we say it. And none of this represents anything like what I expect from Everton Football Club, nor represents anything like what I think should represent what we’ve been throughout our history. 

Although, obviously not in recent years. Well, you could have said this any time, certainly since Moshirii arrived, probably since Bill took over. And for the first time in a long time, yeah, quite a long time, seven or eight years, certainly the whole of Moshiri’s reign. 

I feel some optimism in the fact that everything is going to change and we are going to get different owners, new owners, who from what little research I’ve done and read about their other dealings, fill me with a very warm and naive optimism, which I must say is I haven’t felt since Ronald Koeman went shopping for number 10s. 

You know, when Koeman arrived and thought, oh, great, that’s a class movement and Marcel as well. And then, you know, you saw the results of the shopping and thought, what on earth is this? And so did Europe, preposterously. 

So, you know, I have my fingers very, very firmly crossed for these people that I agree. I agree, bro, because with, you know, with the onset of the Friedkin regime, as which has all hopes will be round about the turn of the year, then the the whole impetus of the club will come from them and the direction will come from them. 

And hopefully they’ll make the kind of changes that we’d like to see. And more importantly, that we need to see a complete change of mindset right from the very top down from the bottom up and from both sides inwards. 

Everything has to change within the club. The first thing, obviously, is the future of the manager’s role, because we all know that Sean Dyches’ contract expires at the end of this season, if he gets through this season. 

George: Do we think that the Friedkin group would retain him? Personally, no, I don’t think so. I don’t think the vast majority of the fanbase would want him to be retained. We’re all very grateful for what he did last year in keeping us up, yes, but have we moved forward? 

Have we built on that this year? No, not as yet. Are there any signs that we’re going to take a giant leap forward in the second half of this season? No, none that I can see, and December looks an abysmal calendar for us. 

We have to start thinking now, or the prospective new owners need to start thinking now, about who will be the manager of the Everton Football Club that they’re going to inherit, be it very, very quickly in the new year, or are they going to wait until the end of the season and make a move in the summer when they can thank Sean Dyche for what he’s done? 

Your contract’s up on your way, son. We’re bringing somebody in. The question, it’s a $64,000 question, is in what direction are they going to look for a new manager? Because it’s going to be the most critical appointment one could suggest in the last 30, 40 years of history of the club. 

The next managerial appointment has to be a success, it has to be proactive, it has to be someone who can restore the pride, the belief and bring new soul to the club. I think it has to be somebody with some ideals about football Andy. 

Football has changed hugely in our lifetime as fans and it’s become a business and very pragmatic and extraordinarily covered in money, but somewhere along the line, and I think it’s at the root of what Paul was saying about Everton too, is that we ought to have somebody who believes in a kind of football and will play that kind of football. 

Come hell or high water now. as it happens, Sean Dyche is doing exactly that. It’s just that it’s ugly and ghastly to watch most of the time. So I kind of want the Friedkins to find somebody who’s got some bottle and thought about football and care for it as a game. 

I read a fascinating article about this guy at Southampton who hasn’t yet won a game, and we’re going there on Saturday, but he had the first half against City, they had the majority of the possession because of the way he wants to play the game, because of the way he thinks the game should be played. 

And the article was about Guardiola going to him afterwards and not only said, boy did I learn a lot watching Southampton, but to congratulate the guy on the way he played, and some of the City players said afterwards that we were congratulating their players on the way they played now at their bottom of the league and they haven’t won. 

So this could sound really weird, but the interview with him was talking about this is the way I want to play football. So it would be crazy to have got promoted playing this kind of football and then go, oh, I must be very pragmatic now. 

I’m not going to be. That’s the kind of person that I would have watched since Moshiri took over

Paul: Yeah, I totally agree, George. Russell Martin is the manager at Southampton, and I think he talked very well. 

Very proudly about what he called the players’ courage on the ball. They could go toe-to -toe with what is obviously the best team in Europe at this moment in time, the Manchester City team, and not just see possession, but actually put the foot on the ball and use the ball which is ultimately what football is about. 

How you can possibly believe that you can have a successful football team over the course of a season that does better than all of the opposition without having possession of the football just defies belief. 

And yet every single game that we play, we always come out worse in terms of possession. And why did we come out worse in terms of possession? A), because we can’t retain it. B), because we can’t recover the ball when the opposition has possession itself. 

And C, because we don’t know what to do with the ball when we have it. Because we’re not coached to do so. Yeah, I watched that game, the City Southampton game. And Southampton, for a lot of the game, matched City toe-to-toe, which is remarkable given the resources that both sides have, the two managers, and where both sides sit in the league. 

Yeah, totally agree with you. And in fact, I think if you look, just spreading the conversation wider, if you look across the league, and if you look at the games that were played this weekend, there was some fantastic football this weekend, some fantastic games. 

And there weren’t games driven by teams who weren’t scared to keep hold of the ball, who weren’t scared to attack the opponents, who weren’t scared to get players in the box, et cetera, et cetera. Largely speaking, the very good games over the weekend were driven by teams that wanted to beat the opposition. 

And ultimately, that’s what competition is about, isn’t it? It doesn’t matter what sport it is. You have to beat the opposition in order to succeed. And if that’s not your objective, then frankly, what are you doing in the sport, any sport? 

Yep. And there were some great games over the weekend. Well, sadly, not one of Goodison, not the one I watch. Yeah. And at what point do we say enough is enough. And I think the challenge has obviously obviously we we talk about the challenge, like laying in the hands of the manager the players and director of football the directors of the football club the owner of the football club, the future owners of the football club as you were talking about and in terms of the three kinds but I sort of indicated some of this in the last article I wrote, 

Saying about football has to be turned on its head and realize that the football fans were the consumers of the product whether we go to the game or not if we go to the game. We pay the price, whatever the entry price is to see the game. 

If you watch the game on TV, we paid a subscription price of whichever channel it is that we watch the game on. We’re the consumers, we’re the people who contribute to it. If we didn’t either pay for tickets, if we didn’t pay the subscription fees for Sky Sports or somebody else, if we didn’t buy the products that the advertisers advertise on football, none of the revenues that football generates would have been generated. 

So everything, all the riches that exist within football, they don’t exist because of the Premier League. They don’t exist because of the commercial excellence of a small number of football clubs, those that wanted to create the European Super League. 

They exist because of the financial contribution that football fans across the country, across Europe and elsewhere make to the Premier League by virtue of either buying tickets to attend games or paying for subscriptions to watch games on TV. 

And it’s about time that we all as consumers of that product, payers of that product, the people who pay the players wages at the end of the day stood up and said, we’re not prepared to pay for a product that we don’t like anymore. 

And that has to be the case at club level in terms of Evertonians, but it has to be the case in terms of league level for all of those that watch the Premier League.

Andy: But you just said there were some great matches this weekend. 

Paul:  There was. And that is to the credit of everybody involved. But I think if you went, if you look back on all of the 200… I think we’re just about 300 episodes of Talking the Blues. Largely speaking, we’d say the game is not what it used to be. 

Well, no, it’s not. And if we were city fans, we wouldn’t be moaning at all. Well, I don’t know. I don’t think we would probably. I think you’re right. So there we are. Come on. Can I talk about something slightly different. 

Well, there’s a whole argument at the moment, but not an argument, a discussion. And contrary to what people might believe on X, formerly known as Twitter, in particular, Dan Meis and myself, with regards to the capacity of Bramley Moore. 

Paul:  

This whole idea about whether the people who have built Bramley Moore, the people who put Bramley Moore, well, we haven’t paid for it yet, but people who found the financing for Bramley Moore have done a good job and have done something in the service of Everton Football Club. 

Dan, and I’m not just picking on Dan, but Dan was the architect. Seems to think that a 53,000 seat stadium creates the hottest ticket in town. And then I’d just like to ask the question, and I’m not necessarily asking both of you to answer this because this is the first time you’ve heard the question, but is it right that football should be the hottest ticket in town for every single league game? 

I understand that it should be the hottest ticket in town for a well -called final and Champions League final, FA Cup final, final game of the season where promotion, relegation, qualifications at Champions League, for example, is in question. 

But doesn’t football have a different responsibility than being the hottest ticket in town, which suggests that it’s only available to those who are most privileged, i.e. those that can afford to pay for the hottest ticket in town, whatever that might be? 

And shouldn’t football be more egalitarian than that? 

George: No, I’m going to disagree with that. Andy’s daughter used to have the job at Goodison of filling the stadium as best she could. She’s now got the same job for the English National Opera. 

And I would suspect if she was here now, she’d say, you know, the job’s exactly the same thing. Everybody running every organization, whether it’s a pop concert or a football club or a theater or anything that sells tickets, should be trying to make it the hottest ticket in town. 

And I would bet you that, and I’m sorry to quote them again, but I bet Man City and Man City supporters think that that’s exactly what the ticket is. They are definitely going to see the best team in England this week. 

And I would be very happy if they were the hottest ticket in town. I don’t quite see. the logical link between that and therefore making the stadium smaller than I hoped it would be. That seemed to me to be a statement of feebleness, really. 

I was astonished that Everton weren’t going to build a stadium that was, well, I would have started from what’s Liverpool’s capacity? Well, we’ll have more than that then. But that’s not what happened. 

But the argument that only 5 ,000 seats, whatever it is, will make it the hottest ticket in town is bullshit. But it should be the hottest ticket in town if you’re trying to sell it. Now, it’s tricky if they’re playing Darlington and the League Cup. 

But that is the job to sell the tickets to make the public want to go and see what’s available. 

Paul: I largely agree with that, George, except I don’t believe that it should be the hottest ticket in town by virtue of reducing capacity. 

George: No, absolutely not.

Paul No. And that’s the arguments I would have with the previous Everton board and with Dan Meis. And I stress contrary to what people on social media might think, Dan and I have a good relationship, and Dan won’t mind me saying this. 

He and I have spoken frequently together, offline and privately. And I have no issue with him, and I hope he has no issue with me. The other point, I’m going off on a bit of a tangent here. The other point, and it only occurred to me when thinking about the whole argument about any stadium, but obviously, in particular, the new stadium. 

In terms of capacity is, is there any logic in the idea that somebody who is a season ticket holder should have a discount applied to the price upon which they go to a match by virtue of being a season ticket holder as against somebody who just goes to a match on an irregular basis? 

Andy: I think it’s a, I might be wrong on this, but I think the discount is a reward, if you like, for a seasonal commitment. 

George: You’ve been assumed to get older Andy, what is the discount? In percentage terms, I’m not, I’m not sure I can, but it’s, it’s not, it’s not insignificant. 

Andy:  Yeah, I think I think my tickets won’t work out about 21 pound a game, something like that. Don’t forget, I’m on a concession anyway. But against the normal prices, mine works out about 21 pound a game. 

So it’s a good saving. And I, I mean, I pay mine up front at the start of every season, I don’t. I don’t use the 10 monthly installment bit, which reduces the reward a little bit. And I just want to, you know, I order my season ticket and pay for it upfront. 

So I, yes, I get the maximum benefit price wise. But I do it for my I don’t do it for that I do it for my, you know, I can pay it, I can afford to pay it. So I’ll pay it, get it out of the way, done a ticket arrives, that’s it, I can forget about it. 

I can just go to every game, you know, enroll in the auto scheme and, and get …..

George: Sorry, Andy, if the seat costs you 21 quid, and I come with you and sit next year, how much is it going to cost me? 

Paul: 55. 

Andy: Probably about 30. 

No. I don’t know. I’ve not bought a regular season ticket for a while. So I don’t honestly know what the regular season, you know, what the individual ticket price is. It’s over 50 quid. I think it’s 55 pound, you may be able to get a discount as a senior citizen. 

Paul:  But the regular if you just as a walk up. Yeah, I think it’s 55 quid. So I think a discount on a season ticket and I’ll go away and get the right figure and come back to everybody on this is around about 40%. 

Right. Now, I would argue I’m gonna argue, and this is not gonna win me any fans whatsoever, right? I would argue that the one thing a season ticket does is it gives you the privilege of knowing that you can go to every single game. 

Yeah. Because it guarantees your seat for every single game. And all the club asks for in return for that guarantee, is it either a payment upfront, as you talk about Andy, or a payment through one of these credit schemes where you pay it over 10 months, six months, whatever it might be. 

I would argue differently. And I would say that in any other commercial field, in order to guarantee a seat in order to guarantee a product or a service and to be first in the queue on every occasion for your particular seat. 

Almost everywhere else in the world you pay a premium for it. Why do you get a discount in football? What do you mean you pay a premium for it? If I want to guarantee, for example, a particular seat on an airplane and I’m going to travel on an airplane 20 times a year, I’ll pay a premium to guarantee that seat. 

George: I mean, you’ll pay more. Wow. And are you saying airlines would not say to you, well, hang on, if you’re going to give you a loyalty bonus here? 

Paul: If I go to the same butchers every week or even 20 weeks a year on a Saturday morning and put my order in for whatever meat I want, do I get a discount because I go there every single week? 

George: Right. Yeah. 

Paul: Well, answer the question, do I?

 No, but you might get better cuts as the week goes, as the weeks go by. Well, that may be the benefit. Or I may phone up and say, you know, there’s a shortage of meat sure that I get one, which is the benefit of being a regular customer. 

By virtue of being a regular customer, I don’t expect a discount. I might expect slightly better service than somebody just like rocks off on a Saturday morning to buy whatever it is that the shop is selling. 

But I don’t expect a discount.

George:  So what’s your point about football, Paul? 

Paul: This is my point is that the capacity and brand new more is reduced from the optimum figure for reasons unknown, but based on whatever the board believes to be the right decision. 

There is a discussion still to be, well, at least it’s probably is resolved, but it’s not yet known in the public domain as to how many of the 52,888 seats are going to be season ticket holders. There is absolutely no discussion as to whether, let’s say it’s 40,000 season ticket holders, so somewhere like somewhere between 75 and 80% of those that attend the stadium, the new stadium, get a substantial discount as against those that don’t buy season ticket holders. 

There’s no discussion at all as to why, what merits that massive discount. 

George: Oh, you’re a businessman. I’m already baffled here. Why would you do that? 

Paul: I don’t know, because I wouldn’t do it.

George:  I’m not sure I would either. :  

I always thought, and it shows how ancient I am, that a season ticket was more or less the same price as the tickets there’s a bloke sitting next to me. But come the cup ties, I definitely got first picks. 

Paul:  I thought that’s, you know, that that sounded right to me. Yeah, I’m not disputing at all that you should have first dibs on your particular seat for any game, be it a Premier League game or be it FA Cup or, you know, Carabao Cup or Europe. 

George: Are you making it sound as though the club is losing money by doing this, Paul? It is. Well, what’s the point of that? 

Paul: Well, I sort of know the reason why. And the reason why is that the people who lend the club money do so on the security of the season ticket revenues and they know. 

So the more season tickets are sold and the quicker they’re sold, the more money the club can borrow. But under an ownership structure that has no need to borrow, such as the Friedkins, such as, you know, in the case of Manchester City or the case of Chelsea, formerly Newcastle United, for example, where the owners have no need to borrow money. 

They can just put the money in because they have the money. And what assumes that the Friedkins have the money? One has to ask the question why. And I can hear people screaming at me who are season ticket holders saying, why on earth are you asking this question? 

Why do season ticket holders get such a big discount for the privilege of knowing that their seat is available every single game? You’ve answered your own question. Can I suggest that with the onset of new ownership around the turn of the year, that as there’s no announcements that I’m aware of yet about season tickets for Bramley Ball, that first of all, any discounts might be removed or reduced. 

And secondly, the number of season tickets made available might be reduced in order that the club makes more out of walk up day ticket sales. Personally, I totally agree with you. Whether the weekends or whether… 

Andy: I’m not advocating it, I’m just suggesting it. Because we all know that those across the park… don’t sell as many season tickets as we do, because that’s their policy. Because they’re making more out of the walk up client, you know, the tourist fans, if you like. 

Whereas Everton have chosen, over the course of a number of years, to sell as many season tickets as possible up to a maximum, I think, of 32 ,500. Yeah, up to the maximum. Meaning that the pressure to sell tickets is reduced, because there’s only a finite number available for each game. 

So to sell, you know, when you’ve only got a limited capacity of 39,000, if you’ve got 32,500 sold by August the 1st, take out the 3,000 for the visitors, you’ve only got three and a half thousand more to sell on a week, on a fortnightly basis, if you like, between games. 

It takes the pressure off. You know, they’ve got the immediate cash flow. And as you said, if the club is borrowing against the season ticket money, then that money is banked. Whether it’s paid up front, as I do it, or whether it’s paid on the 10 monthly drip, as other people do it, the money is guaranteed. 

Paul:  It’s a philosophical decision by the owners of each individual club. Do they have season tickets? Do they limit the number of season tickets? Or do they sell as many season tickets as possible? What I’m asking Andy is, all of those questions are valid, and I agree with you, but then whatever number of season tickets you decide to sell, and whatever percentage of capacity that number is, does the sale of those tickets warrant the discount that they get? 

Andy: I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know either. I’m just asking the question. I mean, I think most sports clubs offer a reduced game ticket price for a season to kill those against the war court. We used to do it in hockey. 

George: Most theatres do too. You know, yeah, exactly. If you’re a regular, you get, you, you benefit. It might, it might.

Paul:  Did they sell out week in, week out?

Andy:  No, I mean, we didn’t in hockey, but. 

Georgel:  Oh, there you go. I mean, well, we, we did. Yes, I certainly didn’t. No, but I don’t know. I mean, I mean, it’s one for. I get your question, Paul, but it’s one that can only be answered going forward. 

You know, we can’t answer it going backwards. It can only be answered going forward. And that will lie with the hierarchical structure that the Friedkin group brings into the club as and when they complete the deal. 

Andy: Being Americans, they might adopt, if you like, the philosophy that John Henry’s adopted across the park. Reduce the number of season tickets and make more on the, if you like, the tourist fan ticket. 

Paul:  Yeah, except not not every walk -up is a tourist. 

Andy: No, but I’m just using that as an umbrella. 

Paul: Yeah, yeah, okay. You know, I don’t know. I mean, I mean, just getting back to Bramley Moore, I mean, my personal belief is that for whatever reason, you know, the fifty two thousand eight eight eight was decided upon. 

In my opinion, it’s the wrong decision. I think it should have been bigger. And not that bigger is better. But, you know, if we’re going to be a content, if we’re going to be a contender, if we if we’re going to if we’re ever going to get back to where we want to be and where we’ve been in the past, we need, you know, we should be we should always be looking to be to be bigger and better. 

Andy: And by the time Bramley Moore’s finished, you know, and it’s brought to you, but don’t get me wrong. Bramley Moore looks fantastic. I’ve driven past it. I’ve not been inside it. I’ve driven past it a number of times, you know, on the road and on the I’ve been past it on the train. 

It looks fantastic, whether it’s going to be fantastic when we’re inside it. I don’t know. I’ve got reservations purely on figures that I’ve seen with regards to legroom but bearing in mind I’m six foot four and I’ve got dodgy knees that you know that’s particularly important to me legroom. 

Whether it’s all right for short arses, it probably will be but I’m seeing bigger

Paul:  I’m sorry George that Andy called you a short arse

Andy:  But yeah I’m thinking it’s a really good market employee. I just think that in an age where we need to get bigger and better and hopefully become bigger and better to where we were, to go into the new stadium in what will then be only the ninth biggest capacity in the Premier League. 

We’ve sold ourselves short. Now whether that was Dan Meis’ decision, whether it was Bill Kenwright’s decision, whether it was Miss Denises’ decision, whether it was the bank’s decision, whoever’s decision it was, in my opinion, it was short -sighted. 

Andy:   We should have gone for 60 ,000. And you know, you said it before, Our kid, the first, surely the first question should have been, how many can, how many can Anfield hold? We need it to hold one more. 

George: That’s exactly the philosophy that Spurs took. How big is the Emirates? The new White Hart Lane’s got to be bigger than the Emirates because they wanted peer power over Tottenham, over Arsenal. Now you could say, well, it’s childish. 

Okay, it’s childish, but Tottenham have done it. What do United want to do? United have got the biggest capacity in the Premier League already at 75,000. They want to build 100,000 for crying out loud sake. 

Jim Ratcliffe wants 100,000 seats stadium. For United. I think he’s dead right. And they’ll fill it, probably. Haven’t they bid if they get a decent manager?

George:  Well, Andy, you know, the reason they fill it is because they offer subsidies for trains. 

What’s the connection between Wormwood Scrubs? I can’t go. 

Andy: No, let’s not go there. No, let’s not go there. I mean, I’ll be honest, when Dan Meis first came over and did those presentations in St. Luke’s, I attended one of them and I left very, not confident, but I left with the feeling that he got the feeling from the fans that we should be looking at 60,000 or 60,000 plus. 

And when it eventually transpired that it was 52,888 I’ve got to be honest, I was bitterly disappointed because I think it sold, I think it sold a fan base show and I think it shows a lack of courage and belief on behalf of the football club that they can manage the football club and run the football club in such a way to produce a team that will, that would make everything the hottest ticket in town. 

George:  100% Even if it had to be, even if it had a capacity way above what we, and another nine or 10 ,000 is way above what we will go into next season. Yeah, we should be the hottest and the most available ticket in town. 

Andy: Yeah, but the only way, I mean, you know, I don’t doubt for a minute that Bramley Moore will be as near, as near full every game next season as Goodison is now, with those extra 12, 13,000 available tickets. 

But imagine, you know, imagine if we got a manager who then built a side that made us a challenge, a true challenger, a true contender, you know, in the way that Howard Kendall did in the mid eighties. 

And I know it’s going back in history, you know, and we’re longing for yesteryear, then yada, yada, yada. But you imagine transposing that 84, 85, 86, 87 side into Bramley Moore Dock, 53,000 or 52 ,888 would never be enough, never. 

It would have to be 60,000 or probably bigger. And that’s the ambition that the club should have to be the biggest and the best. Nothing but the best. For crying out, I’d say it’s the motto of the club. 

Nothing but the best. And I’m sorry, but 52 ,888 isn’t the best. It’ll look great, but it won’t hold the number of Evertonians that it could do and that it should do as and when the club finally gets its act together and gets a team worthy of the name of Everton football club. 

George: Yeah. Terrific, Andy. Really good. I rest in the case, we will. Right, I think we’ve put the world to rights. Yeah, that was a peroration. Terrific. Right, okay. Let’s leave it there. And we are, I think, away to Southampton next weekend. 

Paul:  Aye. And well, let’s see if the… Let’s see what the two philosophies of the managers bring. next Saturday? Well, yeah, I mean, Southampton have played this weekend. If they play the Everton who have played this weekend, it’s probably not going to be that good. 

Let’s hope we get the Everton that went to Ipswich then. Oh, yeah, indeed. Let’s hope we get the Southampton that Ipswich were as well. OK. Gents, thank you so much. I’m sorry to those that listen that this has been slightly delayed, but I hope we’ve given plenty for thought. 

And as always, thank you very much for listening. George and Andy, thank you very much for your contributions and look forward to getting together again in a few days time. Cheers, guys. Thank you.