Transcript

Paul: Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, depending upon where in the world you are, and what time of the day you’re listening to this, again, slightly delayed talking the blues. George and Andy, how are you both? 

Andy & George: Pretty good. Yeah, not too bad. 

Paul: Good. And now if you slip your everything hats on for a second. Let me ask the same question. How are you both?

Andy: Underwhelmed.

Paul:  Is that underwhelmed from a very low base? 

George: Oh yeah. Yeah, that’s the point, isn’t it. I realized in the time that we have, because we’ve delayed doing this that one’s expectations now are so low that I kind of enjoyed quite a bit of that match on Saturday. 

And, actually there wasn’t that much to enjoy. I mean you know there were obviously the individual moments were better it’s the bar and in the way he took the ball when he scored the goal that was just allowed was lovely. 

And, you know, Ashley Young made one mistake in the whole match and it cost us a goal, all that kind of thing but one’s expectations of how much football you’re going to see Everton play are so low that I actually thought they exceeded that I thought there must have been 10 15 minutes on Saturday when they played some quite good stuff and I thought Gueye again for example, had a wonderful game really good game. 

Andy: And that’s just a sign of the times as to, you know, what we expect if we go to Southampton we didn’t win again. Big surprise kind of thing awful awful. I kind of agree with that because in comparison to the performance against form. 

I think it was a better performance and that doesn’t say a great deal because the performance game was so poor. but to come away with nothing from Southampton. I saw one of the newspapers, I think it was on Friday, might have been Thursday, they do a little preview of all the games in the Premier League, and the little preview of Southampton versus Everton was probably the shortest preview I’ve ever read, 

And it just said idealism versus pragmatism, which will come out on top. The idealism of Russell Martin and Southampton in playing out from the back, despite the fact they haven’t won all season, or the pragmatism of Dyche, they didn’t go into all that, I’m just reading into it what they were saying. 

George: The pragmatism of Dyche, we’ve come with a point, we’re going on with a point, and we didn’t, and idealism won in the end. whether they deserve to win, I’m not entirely certain but for sure as well, I don’t think Everton deserve to win and it’s just for me, I found myself reflecting on the game afterwards, actually not wanting to bear down on the players for failing to be side the spot on the table. 

Andy: I found myself really for the first time, stating all my anger and frustration towards the manager. I was lost and it just got me thinking that everything, you’ve said it many times, that the Everton that’s being served up now is nothing like the Everton that we were weaned on. 

It is a reflection of any number of years of dreadful management, both team management and club management. We are where we are and there is no easy way out of this. I was just dispirited and I honestly can’t say I was shocked and surprised when Southampton scored. 

Obviously bitterly disappointed that Beto wasn’t able to put his header down, which would have won as the game and bitterly disappointed for him that a hair on his knee was deemed to put him offside because the nature of the finish of that disallowed goal was outstanding. 

It’s such a nice finish. to work to use words never normally linked with Beto sublime um I felt really sorry for him on that on that school I really did I found myself thinking that you know had the header come to DCL I think DCL would have would have buried that but the chance that Beto took one touch and finished I don’t think DCL would have done that in a million in a million years but you know we’re splitting ears here on over a disallowed goal ultimately VAR said it was disallowed but uh it said it was offside but overall I was I was disappointed but I’ve like I said I found myself thinking that can we can we obviously the players are on the pitch they’ve crossed the white line they have to do the business when they’re out there but I just found myself thinking that their whole game plan had been device constructed however you want to describe it by a manager who doesn’t want to go out and try and win games. 

George: That was what I found myself thinking. He doesn’t want to win games, he just wants to survive and unfortunately that is the mantra that has been running through the club for more years than I care to remember. 

Paul: Survive, no ambition, no forward thinking, just get through each day as it comes, get through each game as it comes if we can. And that’s not the Everton Football Club that I want to support. It’s difficult to pick on individual players and I sort of get what both of you are saying in terms of the players that were on the pitch but I think the individual player’s performance has to be done. 

First of all, the starting 11 had 10 internationals on the pitch so we started the game with 10 internationals on the pitch and we were playing the team that were bottom of the Premier League and b had failed to win any of the games, nine games previously and had in fact lost eight of them. 

I know it’s a repeat of previous conversations but before we even get near to the manager there is a lack of confidence and that confidence could be in terms of individual form, or it could be, and probably almost certainly is, a lack of confidence in the style and the manner and the tactics that they’re told to deploy throughout the game. 

But on paper, we were far the superior side, if you match, you know, our starting 11 with their starting 11. And, you know, that’s before we even get on to the conversations about who the starting 11 should have included and who shouldn’t have included. 

We have, we should have had plenty in reserve in beating what we didn’t, but we should have had plenty in reserve and have beaten that Southampton side quite easily. You know, I applaud enormously the approach of the Southampton manager. 

in terms of possession football, playing out from the back, he’s got a style of football, which was praised extensively by Pep Guardiola the week before when they took City very, very close to gaining a point against City. 

And they do play with a style and an identity, albeit with a group of players that probably are just not quite at the level that’s required at Premier League. It might be that that side, if they don’t think they will, but if they could survive a season in the Premier League would be a much better side in the second season because those players would be hardened by their experience of the first season. 

Unfortunately, for Southampton fans at least, I don’t think that would be the case, but there can be really no justification for not having won that game, even with the appalling tactics and the sort of really quite bizarre starting 11 that Dyche put out on the pitch. 

We should have had as indeed eight of the previous nine clubs that have played Southampton much more in the tank and being able to defeat what is going to be a team despite the nice football that they play is not gonna stay in their division this season. 

And purely from a results point of view, it was horrific from a watching experience, even before one considers what we might expect from an Everton side, given the fact that, well, at least the three of us and many other people that listen to this will have watched Everton for decades. 

Perhaps even half a century, what our expectations are. That was a very, very, very poor performance by Everton Football Club. Not at all helped, as I say, by the manager. I’m going to get on to the manager, I think, and discuss the manager in much greater detail in a few minutes, but without repeating myself, there’s no excuse as to why we didn’t win that game. 

How can we go into a game against a team like Southampton with their form and not be at it from the first moment of the game? We only really got at it for once of a better description when the substitutions occurred. 

We looked far more threatening in the last half an hour than we did in the first 60 minutes. Is that just down to the manager or is it down to the players as well or is it a combination of both? It can’t be a lack of technical ability because we’ve got players who were technically superior to the Southampton players. 

Players who in Dyche’s words are, that was a pretty experienced team. One of the statistics which I was going to talk about a bit later is that we currently have the oldest squad by average age in the Premier League. 

So we probably have a team and I will look at the number of individual Premier League games and the combined number of Premier League games that this squad has played. But we’re going to be right up there in terms of one of the most experienced Premier League squads in the league and that’s a function of age and it’s a function of the manager’s desire only to play experienced players. 

But if you’re going to do that and that’s going to be like one of your primary what’s the word I’m looking for if that it’s going to be one of your primary selection criteria then there’s got to be an end result from it. 

Whilst there’s plenty of experience on the pitch there was no end result. There was no end result obviously in terms of the match but in terms of competitiveness throughout the match. Southampton liked to keep hold of the ball. 

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They liked to play from a very deep position. Why didn’t we press the Southampton team much much stronger in the first sixty minutes as against the final 30 minutes. Why didn’t we put them, the team that’s bottom in the league, the team at only one point, the team that’s not had or had not had up to Saturday, a clean sheet? 

Andy: Why weren’t we right at them from the first moments of the game? It’s not in the manager’s DNA to send a side out to go and throttle the game right from the outset. But then I accept that tactically 

Paul: I mean, I don’t agree with it, obviously, but I accept your analysis of what the manager is like, but does that mean that the players get a free pass? 

Andy: No, it doesn’t. But we’ve said this before, you know, we’ve posed the question before, once the players cross the white line, why doesn’t somebody, one of them, be it? 

Pickford, Young, Keane, Tarkowski, whoever, why don’t they just, you know, if they’re having a little pre kick-off huddle, why doesn’t one of them actually have the balls to say, forget what I did, said, let’s go out and play football. 

We’re all good players. We can beat this lot with our hands tied behind our back. Let’s go out and do it. But they don’t. They say, so, you know, we’ve got a player wearing a captain’s armband, but it’s as though we haven’t got anyone on the field who genuinely can say to the players, right, come on, lads, enough of this nonsense that we keep putting out, you know, this rubbish we keep dishing up week after week after week. 

Let’s go out and put nine past these. Let’s go out and bury them. And they don’t, maybe, whether, I don’t know whether they’re scared or diked or whatever, but I can’t fathom out how players, and they might not be world beaters. 

We’re not suggesting for one minute that this Everton side are world beaters. But as you’ve said, there are experienced players. 10 of them are internationals, you know, so they must have something about them because they’re not only earning the tick of dithering in being selected, but they’re earning the tick of their respective international managers in being selected. 

So why can’t they just, I don’t know, I’m fed up with it, I really am.

Paul:  Can I throw something else into that, Andy, because I agree with what you just said. And there’s also a large group of players within the first team squad, not just looking at the Southampton game, but looking generally at the approach to playing football for Everton this season. 

Who either will get a new contract as Everson and stay as Everson next season regardless of whether we’re in the Premier League or not or as is more likely will leave the club at the end of their contracts in the summer and move on to a different club. 

I don’t see any evidence of players or I don’t see much evidence of players either playing for a new contract as Everson or indeed playing for a new contract at another football club because if this season pans out in the worst possible scenario for us and we end up getting relegated, surely an awful lot of other club owners, club directors of football, club managers elsewhere are going to say this was a team that was technically far superior, 

Was far more experienced than any of the teams in and around the relegation spot. Yet they still went down. What does that say about the individual players? And I think there’s an awful lot of people. 

And one of the things, you know, if I was in the dressing room, I think one of the things I would be reminding people is that not only are they playing for the football club, not only are they playing for the fans. 

And I’ll mention the fans and the players a bit later on in the podcast. But a lot of these players are playing for their futures as well. But that’s not evidenced by the desire, the competitiveness and the we must win at all cost type attitude that you might expect. 

George, that’s contrary to sort of your version, your view of that you quite enjoyed aspects of the game. But that’s just me saying as I see it. I don’t know if I could just come in first. I don’t think we’ll go down. 

George: I genuinely don’t think we’ll get relegated. I couldn’t say that four or five weeks ago. But I don’t think we will go down. What I would suggest is that it will be another dogfight right to the end of the season. 

I don’t think we’re going to climb any any stage. I don’t think we’re going to climb higher than 14th. And I suspect we’ll probably end up where we are now in 16th. Which, again, isn’t good enough by any stretch of the imagination. 

It will be I’m beginning to lose count of the number of years now. But what the fourth fifth year on the truck that will will have been in a relegation dogfight. And it’s it’s absolutely tiresome draining for everybody watching it and it’s got to be tiresome and draining for them as players as well. 

I would have thought that you look at the season and go we’re not going to win anything. We can’t hope to win even the karaoke cup. Not our chance because we’re going to have to meet the usual pastures. 

That must be very depressing. All in all, although each individual tries his best collectively as a team, that’s what they look like. 

Paul: So take that point, George. Let’s contrast then, Everton’s position in the league, Everton’s performance and Everton’s results today with that of Nottingham Forest. 

Who equally could have started the season in the belief that, you know, a bit of a crazy owner tick, both ticks have ticked that box. You know, a squad that is not hugely competitive, no more competitive than the Everton squad probably. 

And yet there they are, only having conceded seven goals all season and the third in the league. And again, you know, and I know we’re searching here for answers. It just doesn’t seem right to me. 

And, you know, I think the manager has to take a lot of responsibility and I’m going to talk about the manager in a bit more detail in a few minutes. But I think the players have to take a lot of responsibility as well. 

And the players, I know we’ve been through terrible, a terrible time as a football club. We’ve had, you know, all sorts of financial difficulties and uncertainties, points deductions, who’s the owner is going to be this, that and the other. 

But really all of that has to be left on the side of the pitch when you cross over the line. And that’s like the difference between, frankly, the difference between winners and losers. Winners achieve despite their problems, losers lose because of their problems. 

If I want, you know, if I want to put it like in very simplistic, amateur psychology type based arguments, we just don’t have. And then I know it’s an institutional thing. It’s a cultural thing throughout the organisation, but we just have a complete absence of winners. 

Andy: It’s been prevalent for a number of years. What happens to a team when, you know, on Saturday, Keane, who played well, gets to start the match, and Branthwaite comes on for three minutes. Now, tell me what the other players think. 

They can only think this man’s an idiot. Branthwaite is clearly a better player than Keane. More of the future than Keane. Why is he not being picked? What are we part of here? Some bizarre kind of expertly favorites pick. 

George: You know, and with no disrespect to Keane, who’s had a good patch, but sorry, nobody except Sean Dyche given first pick in the playground, would go, I’ll take Michael. They would all go. I’ll have Jared. 

Paul: Absolutely. Nobody’s going to queue up at the end of the season and buy Michael Keane for £70 million. Well, I don’t want anyone to queue up and buy Jared Braithwaite, but you know, as he came on for his three minutes, you think, what is that boy thinking? 

Well, yeah, there are rumors. I mean, there are rumors, but there are rumors, you know, regarding that he is less than satisfied with what’s happened. That couldn’t be a surprise to anybody. No, I mean, it’s just if the inconsistency is from the manager, just, you know, they’re so significant. 

And this is if you set aside his tactical limitations for a second. And I want to talk about them, but if you set aside those for a second and you think about his, you know, what is what is you from a managerial point of view, his ability to manage to use an old fashioned expression, his ability to get the best out of players, his ability to have a philosophy, his ability to be consistent. 

Then if he ever had that at any point in his career and he must have had at some point in order to, you know, as he proudly talks about having managed 300 and whatever number of games it is in the Premier League, none of that appears apparent at this moment. 

We all know, you know, very simplistic terms. Branthwaite is a better player than Keane. If Brathwaite’s fit, Branthwaite should be the first person on the team sheets, first outfield player on the team sheet. 

Why? Well, first of all, he’s our best player. Secondly, we play better when. he’s in the side, we defend better because we, as we talked about previously, and lots of other people say, defensively, we’re greater than the sum of the parts with Branthwaite in the team than we are without him in the team. 

George: And what does the team think, Paul, when they see that he’s not picked him? 

Paul: Well, they must privately throw their hands up in despair. They must look and say, here’s a guy who’s apparently match fit. 

Apparently, Premier League fit to use Dyche’s expression. Yeah, we’ve got a different position, obviously, we’ve got Dwight McNeil coming into the side, who hadn’t trained during the week. So, where’s the consistency in terms of, well, you don’t get a game until you’re absolutely 100% fit and you are Premier League fit. 

Yeah. Dwight McNeil walks straight back into the team, not straight back in, but walks into the team having been unfit during the week and either his lack of preparation or perhaps his lack of fitness was apparent throughout the game. 

He didn’t. Dwight McNeil has been our most productive player so far this season in terms of goals and in terms of assists. He didn’t look anything like that at the weekend. Now you can argue about, you know, maybe he shouldn’t have been playing centrally and you know what, why wasn’t he playing centrally, you know, all the tactical stuff and everything else, but just looking at the guy, he looked off the pace from the first moment of the game and was that because he wasn’t fit and if he wasn’t fit and he wasn’t, you know, Premier League fit, why was he selected? 

George: There’s no happy answer to that question and just to go back, just to backtrack five minutes, correct me if I’m wrong Andy, I have never seen the Everton team get into a huddle before the match. 

Andy: I wish they would. I absolutely wish they would get so that somebody has a voice at the other 10 here, but they don’t, they never do it. Sorry, that’s just backtracking on something, but to go back to where you were Paul, a hundred percent, you know, what does Nathan Patterson and even Seamus Coleman at 35 think? 

They can’t get in the team. Just let Nathan Patterson think, oh right, so if I stay until I’m 38 I’ll get a game. No, he must be just keeping himself fit for the next transfer window, because why would he not want to put in a transfer request? 

Paul: Why would his agents people, as it’s said these days, why wouldn’t they be talking to other clubs? Because it’s clear, as long as Dyche’s manager at Everson Football Club, and maybe that won’t be that long, but it’s clear that he doesn’t have a future at Everson as it stands. 

George: Well, the length of Dyche’s tenure, that’s a subject that could be raised very, very sharply once we run into that, what looks like a horrendous… fixture list for December. I know what you’ve said previously, I kid about the the players are probably the players you would hope are looking forward to the game to the games against in inverted commas, the big clubs. 

Paul: So they got a lot of news. Well, I know. And I hear where you I hear exactly where you’re coming from on that. But given that we were outplayed by Fulham, and we didn’t dominate a side that only picked up one point all season in Southampton. 

Andy: Can you seriously see them raising their game 500% when they take on Liverpool or Arsenal or Chelsea? I’ve got the bid united under a new manager. And the city on Boxing Day. I mean, the length of his tenure. 

This stands a time of fast running through that hourglass now. They’ve got to be. They’ve got to be. I mean, can the club? Well, can the club? Who is the club at the moment? That’s the problem. You know, can the club afford to wait, you know, till January, when hopefully the takeover is completed and we’re under complete new ownership? 

Well, come on. We’re obviously going to have this conversation. And my mate Andrew, who’s a blue from Glasgow, texted me after the match and said, if we had a board, we would be sacked by now. And I almost wrote back to him, thank God we haven’t, because I hear and I’m sure I’m sure you’re going to go there, Paul, that his tenure should be up as of ASAP. 

But for goodness sake, with the state, the club is in who is going to make the decision to replace him that you trust that that’s that’s the problem there isn’t there isn’t we we don’t know who the club is at the moment do we no so we we know we know who’s we know who’s looking after the the Bramley Moore project you know Colin Chong very good you know Tick VG well done um but with regards to the the rest of the day -to -day running of the club um we haven’t got a clue hang on hang on a second sorry i know we’re getting into the arguing every week at the moment and i’m not arguing with you i’m just just going to make it up at a different point um we’ve got one of the highest paid directors of football in the Premier League and what’s your point who makes those decisions as to whether Sean Dyche should be manager or not. 

Paul: Surely the director of football picks up the phone and says to Farhad Moshiri or says to the Friedkins, and I’ll get onto the Friedkins in a second, this isn’t working and it won’t work for the following reasons. 

He’s a bone head, team selections are useless, his in-game management is useless, he doesn’t know how to substitute, he’s talking rubbish when he talks to the media because he’s talking about fine margins in games where you know it wasn’t about fine margins, it was about all of the other issues I’ve just previously mentioned. 

When is somebody going to actually just say the truth? This is the truth that this guy is not capable, he might have been capable at one point, but he is not capable of managing this football club at this particular moment in time regardless of whether Farhad Moshiri still owns the club or whether the Friedkins are going to own the club in maybe four, five, six weeks’ time. 

George: This is the point where I disagree with you. I read your article today and that’s a summation of it. I don’t disagree with what you said, but I am so frightened that worth their will to deliver that as an email or a conversation to Farhad Moshiri. 

Farhad Moshiri would make another bollocks and hire some other clown because he’s got it wrong on the managerial appointments he’s made from day one. I would rather stay there, did his best, took some criticism, maybe learned a little bit until the Friedkins arrive and a steady hand is on the tiller. 

I don’t trust anybody to make. make a decent coherent decision about Sean Dyche. Except the Friedkins could make that decision. So the Friedkins can’t make that decision until the ink’s dried on the paper. 

Paul: Legally, and technically, of course, you’re right.

Andy:  Well, up until a few weeks ago, 777 were in the driving seat. We all know what happened there, it all went, all went pear shaped. They were never in a position where they were going to be able to… 

You know what I’m saying, Paul?

Paul:  No, I’m disagreeing. I think there’s a massive difference. These are people who will own the football club, are sufficiently resourced to own the football club, are good business people and can make decisions. 

Now, and in fact, you know, when you when you enter like a pre sales agreement or pre purchase agreements, often in that you will say, for example, you know, if there’s going to be a managerial change we need to be informed or we need to be part of that decision making process, because what you don’t want to be as the buyer is in a position where the lunatic owner who’s leaving makes it to use your very good point, George, and makes a lunatic decision two days before the club is sold.

George: Do you know, because I know you know this stuff, that that’s a fact that the Friedkins have got a veto on anybody doing anything daft. 

Paul: I don’t know that the Friedkins per se have that right. Oh, but in any other business transaction in any other acquisition, the buyer will have those provisions in the pre-sales agreement. Sorry, George I’d be disappointed if they didn’t have it. 

Paul: George, I think we’ve lost you. Have you? No, you’re there. Good. Yeah, I think that provision will be there because nobody sensibly having already lent the club 200 million pounds and having spent money and committed, you know, future resources, besides reputation, etc, etc, etc. 

And nobody will leave themselves in a position where they’re vulnerable to a complete loon, such as Farhad Moshiri making completely loony decisions a week before he sells the club. So, just to be sort of dancing about it. 

George: If, as both of you have said, and I’m not. I disagree with either of you, you call time on Sean Dyche by what means or by what apparent means to the public. Because, you know, as Andy started this podcast by saying, or I think maybe before you press the button that, you know, in certain terms, Everton are a bit of a joke at the moment and not a very funny one either. 

By what means would they, could that possibly be done that Thelwell supposedly steps up and goes, I’m making an executive decision and you are replaced, is your embank money and you’re replaced by this person who is sanctioned and agreed by the Friedkins. 

Paul: Is that what you’re saying? You basically have to say, I as the director of football, I head of football operations, believe it’s no longer appropriate for you to remain manager of the football club. 

So I’m relieving you of your duties. all of our contractual obligations to you. Thank you very much for keeping us in the division. Blah, blah, blah, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. There’s the door. 

They don’t need to explain anything other than that. He, being Thelwell, is Dyche’s boss. 

George: Right, okay, fair enough. That’s encouraging then. So do you imagine then, either of you, that Thelwell is in conversation with the Friedkin’s about who’s next? 

Paul: Well, if I was Dan Friedkin, I would be on the phone saying, look, this is the person that we think can either be the interim manager for the rest of the season, and we’re gonna appoint somebody else in the summer, or this is the person that we think can do a job for the next three years. 

We’ve already had discussions with them. That person has agreed to join the club. We now need to release the current manager, and it happens. 

Andy: I’ve got a question for you, Dan. Go on. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Kevin Thelwell’s current contract up at the end of this season? 

Paul: It is. 

Andy: It is? Yeah. So possibly the Friedkins don’t see a future for him. Quite possible. So any conversation of the nature that you’ve just suggested might not be happening, because if they’re already thinking that he’s not the man to be the DOF, and therefore not capable of making that, not in a position to make that decision on an interim manager or a full -time manager, then where do we go? 

Paul: Yeah, but surely, Andrew, the situation would be that, you know, if the Friedkins have already decided that Thelwell is not going to continue in his present position, they would tell him who to replace Dyche with. 

Paul: Yeah, possibly. Yeah, probably. They would say, look, you are the current director of football. We know that your contract is up at the end of the year. We can have those discussions once we’re on board, once we’re the owners of the football club. 

But our primary concern at this moment in time is ensuring that the club on the pitch is as stable as possible and gets enough points if it possibly can in order to stay in the Premier League. Therefore, for the following reasons, listed them out beforehand. 

We no longer have confidence in Sean Dyche’s ability to see the club through the next 10 games, which would take us beyond the halfway point of the season, but would take us to the point where the Friedkins would be the owners of the club going into the new year. 

We no longer have confidence in him. We’re telling you, as your future employer, then to fire that guy now. 

George: Yeah, I mean, this is a mean question to ask, but what percentage of the fan base do you think would go? 

Paul: That’s not right. What I would hope a very small number.

Andy:  Me too. Me too, Paul. Given the reaction to Saturday, I would imagine very, very few would be against it. 

George:Why? What was the reaction to Saturday? 

Andy: I mean, I’ll be honest, I didn’t spend ages and ages trawling around social media. 

What little I did see was the sooner he’s gone, the better. Right. There are a few people who are prepared to give him the benefit, the doubt a little bit longer, but I think that number is waning. I agree with you. 

Paul: I think also to pick up on both of your points, none of this is without risk. We are in the risk business. Football is a risk business at the end of the day, and there’s no guarantee that anybody that we brought in is going to do any better than Sean Dyche. 

One hopes that they would, but there’s no guarantee, obviously, with that. The question is, whether you believe we can survive this Premier League season if we retain Sean Dyche. And where is the evidence that supports that view, if indeed that is your view? 

Because not only does the league table suggest that, and, you know, performance against teams like Southampton suggest he can’t. You know, just the bare statistics. And, you know, football is obviously very much a data-driven game these days. 

You know, don’t support his inclusion, his further involvement in the football club. And I think most successful business people would rather take decisions early and risk that decision being the wrong decision, than… 

Make the decision too late when it becomes even more difficult to get yourself out of the position that you’re in and yet you don’t have any greater guarantee in three months’ time that you’re going to make the right decision than you do today. 

At least today if you do make the decision today or you make the decision tomorrow you are buying time and I would suggest going into you know a fixture list that includes United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester City. 

here is the potential at least for you know the famed new manager bounce because realistically you know how many points so our next 10 games West Ham away and Brentford at home, United away, Walls at home, Liverpool at home, Arsenal away, Chelsea at home, City away, Forest at home which is going to be you know a tough game that we might not have thought would have been and Bournemouth away. 

They’re our next 10 games they take us through the first week in January. Realistically based on everything that we’ve seen and particularly what we’ve seen in recent weeks despite the fact that we went five games unbeaten how many points this is the question that the board has to be asking themselves and the question that Kevin Thelwell has to be asking himself and the proposition that he has to put to the frequent. 

How many points is Everton Football Club going to gain out of these next 10 games because we’ll be halfway through the season at the end but more than halfway through the season we will play 20 games at the end of our next 10 games. 

How many points are we going to gain out of those 10 fixtures with Sean Dyche as manager and I don’t I obviously don’t know the answer but I can see a number of games where it’s very unlikely that we get any points but I can also see games that perhaps we should get points from, you know, West Ham, Brentford, Wolves, Forest perhaps, not because they’re having such great season, and Bournemouth. 

We should be able to get points from some of the others, obviously, probably not. But based on scraping a draw at home to Fulham, based on losing against Southampton, based on, you know, a draw against Newcastle United when Newcastle had no attacking players in their team. 

45 minutes of decent performance against Leicester, and just one game in which we were in control throughout, which was the Ipswich game, but Ipswich were very, very poor. Look what happened in the Bournemouth game where we were in control, and then we weren’t in control for the last 10, 15 minutes. 

There’s the body of evidence that says… he’s not going to get many points as of these next 10 games. So let’s cut it now, let’s do it now where we’ve still got 28 games of the season left as against doing it on January the 4th when we’ve only got 18 games of the season left and the gap between us and safety may be much less than it is now. 

Sorry Andy, what did you say? 

Andy: No, I just said the gap might be non-existent.

Paul:  Yeah, the gap at the moment is four or five points isn’t it? But it could be that there’s no gap at all come January the 4th or whatever date it is, I think it is January the 4th that we play Bournemouth which is the 10th of our next 10 games. 

Andy: Just one continual firefight isn’t it? 

Paul: Well we can firefight week by week and that is just like you know going on the basis of well how did we do in the last game and put off making a decision because well for whatever reason just put off making a decision or we can like say you know we have to do it now and the quicker we do it the better the prospects are of survival and not that survival should be our sole objective of course it shouldn’t be and you know a better response. 

The other thing, I’m sorry I never talk for a long time on these things, is we can’t go into the summer with the current manager having survived with a squad. that is where most of the squad walks away either because their contracts are finished or because they decide they want to leave the club and then going into a new stadium we can’t expect to make a managerial change at the end of the season and then only give that person whoever that person is it’s coming in albeit under new ownership a very short window throughout the summer period to turn everything around so that by the time we get into Bramley-Moore at the beginning of August of 2025 we’re in much better shape surely and again this is another argument surely we’re better doing that now and giving that individual whoever that individual is 10 months to do or nine months to do what that person has to do rather than eight weeks 10 weeks in a summer window even if you even if you even if you reckon that Dyche would keep us in the division, 

which, you know, I would argue he can’t. But even if he did argue, and he could provide the evidence that he would, it doesn’t make any sense waiting so that whoever is incoming only has eight or 10 weeks to sort things out before the beginning of next season as against having nine months if he did it now. 

George: If Thelwell’s contract is up, and Dyche’s contract is up, and the board is made up of somebody who hides in Essex, a man who’s managing a building project, and a barmy bloke who lives in Monte Carlo. 

Who is making these decisions, Paul? I don’t disagree for a second with what you’re saying, but I can’t see any structure in place to make it happen. 

Paul: Well, it has to be led, well, in terms of the people who are employed by the club, who are currently part of the club, it can only be Thelwell. 

But the higher level decision that puts all of this in place, this has to come from the Friedkins. And they have to pick up the phone to Moshiri and say, look, we’re, you know, 75% of the way through the process of buying this football club. 

But we want to ensure as much as we possibly can that what we’re buying is a Premier League club, not only this season, but next season and beyond. And that we want to be in a position in the summer where we’re in a far better position than we would be if we kept Sean Dyche till the summer. 

So we are saying to you as a condition of selling the club to us, you need to find the manager now. No, as a condition of selling the club, you need to fire this manager now. 

George: Don’t leave, don’t give him a quarter of an inch of wiggle room to make any kind of Yeah, absolutely. 

Paul: Fire Sean Dyche now. And a point somebody we’ve already earmarked and selected. Yeah. Everton cannot afford any more of the managerial decisions that have been made since Moyes left. Yeah. And some people will point to say, well, they’re making a bit of a mess of it at Roma. 

And it is a little bit difficult to argue against that, because obviously they’ve had problems in terms of managerial selection, and then not retaining managers for different reasons. And one hopes that they’ve learned from that experience. 

But the fact is, is that they are going to be our future owners, whether we like it or not, they are going to be our future owners and everything that happens from from this point going forward has to be planned on the basis that whatever we do, we have to do that makes their job slightly easier than it would be the moment they become owners and ever since prospect of staying in the Premier League, the condition that ever since football club will be in at the end of the season and can only be made better by removing the current manager and bringing in a new manager. 

George: I’m going to buy that argument. 

Paul: So long as somebody sensible makes the decision about the replacement. Yes, yeah. Well, I don’t know. I know my knowledge of football outside of Everton is so limited that I couldn’t possibly say

Andy: You know, it was a rhetorical question. 

George: While you’re asking that rhetorical question, Andy, we all notice what Jose said the other day. Yeah. Yeah, he’s told me I mean, he was saying it in context of it when he’s at the end of his time in Turkey, that he would like to return to the Premier League and he would be willing to, if you like, take a take a take on a more demanding role. 

Paul: I don’t know. I really don’t think he’s the answer. And I don’t think they’d have him back, would they? Because, I mean, they’ve already fired him once, so. You don’t know. 

George: Who are you talking about? 

Paul: I thought you said Jose. 

George:But who’s already fired him once? 

Andy: Friedkins from Roma. OV. Oh, no, no, he’s a no chance. And I wouldn’t support him anyway, but I think he’s a busted flush with regards. 

George: Here’s my thought of the week. People say that, but he keeps looking to all things. Well, yeah, what do I know? In the time, you know, that most of those have been alive and watching football, the riches that have poured into the game, which have changed the game. 

whether it’s VAR or shirt sales or the percentage of the club’s income that comes actually from the fans. All those things have changed so much. And I suddenly realized the other day that what they’ve done, what those changes have done is make most of the managers, coaches, directors of football of most of the clubs into severe pragmatists. 

There’s a lack of idealism in the way that football is played because of the cash, because the rewards are so important. Because if you don’t finish at that level that you finished that last year, you’ve got less money to build up that position and get the better players to stay in that position to achieve higher. 

And I’m not quite sure where I’m going with this thought. I just noticed that that’s what’s happened. I noticed it because I was having a conversation with a United fan talking about who they wanted to replace, to whatever his name was, Baldy. 

And then I read about this boy that they have replaced him with. And the article I read in The Guardian said, this is a pragmatist as a manager. He’s a sporting pragmatist. And you thought, is he? Oh, what a drag. 

And actually, the people that I’m kind of drawn to, that guy who’s coaching Spurs and the guy who’s, yeah, because he’s got a philosophy and an idealism about how you should play the game. And he seems to have the strength of character. 

But, you know, I mean, I’ve got lots of mates. And so have you, Andy. Celtic fans, and they were gutted when he left because of the way he played football. Now, that feeling about the way they played football is so far light years from what any of us have experienced in a very, very long time. 

And Saturday was, in a sense, as Paul said, almost the bottom of the barrel, man. Although you were right to say we were marginally better than we were against Fulham. But what kind of margin are we doing? 

Andy: That was a low base to start from, a very low base. It was, but I was just thinking that, because we are clear, whether it happens tomorrow or not, the club is clearly heading into new manager territory. 

George: Yeah. Even that we start from a low base, I would rather they poured all that energy into finding somebody who is not a football pragmatist, but someone who will come here and go, this is how I want you to play this game. 

And in a sense, just to go back to United, the last time they had one was when they won things and it was Ferguson. And Ferguson was an idealist in the sense that his philosophy was, I bet we score more goals than you did. 

Because we’re going to attack. And wouldn’t that be nice? At Everton. That’s the end of that unconnected rant. I mean,

Paul:  it’s a very valid point, George. You know, if you look at, and I’ve been a bit of a stato in terms of preparing for this, you know, we’re 15th in the league in terms of number of shots, we’re 17th in terms of number of shots on target, we’re 20th in the league in terms of number of passes

Yet, we’re first in the league in terms of number of long balls. Yeah. And we’re bottom of the league in terms of possession. Yeah, 38% possession on average across the season so far. And I know people will argue, well, you know, possession doesn’t necessarily win new games. 

But I think, and this is a slightly different point. I think when people express possession as a percentage, so, you know, 38%, well, that means that the opposition have had 62% of the ball. In very simple terms, what does that mean? 

Well, it means in a 90 minute game, we’ve only had the ball for 34 minutes. And the opposition have had the ball for 56 minutes, assuming that the ball’s in play for the whole 90 minutes.

George:  Well, don’t assume that question. 

Paul: Yeah. But you know, the point I’m making, what is the manager saying? If the manager is saying we can afford to give the ball to the opposition for 50% of the time more than we have it, is he saying that we are a much better football team and much more likely to score when we’ve got the ball than they are? 

Because that has to be the logical conclusion for giving up possession, that you believe that when we’ve got possession, we’re better at scoring than the opposition are when they’ve got possession. Otherwise, you would want as much possession as possible. 

George: Of course.

Paul:  But that evidence is not then backed by everything in the statistics, as I just said. And I would love somebody to, I mean, one hopes now it becomes an academic topic with Sean Dyche. But I’d love somebody to sit down with him and say, Sean, just explain to us why you believe we can win more games than we lose by only having the ball for just over 30 minutes in a game. 

George: I wouldn’t have, I might be wrong, but I suspect you’d get an answer that’s largely gobbled and good. The bit where I fell out with Dyche on Saturday, apart from Branthwaite, was the notion of putting two goalkeepers on the bench. 

What, if you put two goalkeepers on the bench, that’s a very, nobody else did that. That’s him. That’s a deliberate statement. And the statement is, look at poor me. I haven’t even got eight outfield players, which is a lie. 

He has got eight outfield players, but he chose to do a ridiculous, stupid thing of putting two goalkeepers on the bench, both of whom would hope that they wouldn’t get on, because then the best goalie in England would have got injured. 

But the statement that it makes about his mentality is a bit tragic, frankly. Apart from the fact that these two goalies are sat with Jared Branthwaite, who would be on the pitch for the other 20 Premier League teams in the league. 

Other 19, sorry. It’s just, There’s never any easy answers, is there? Hundreds of questions and very few answers, except that you’ve got to start with the obvious question, and the obvious question is, will Sean Dyche deliver for us what we need him to deliver, which at the very base level is Premier League survival, but actually should be much more than that because he has a group of players that actually are much better than just a team that finishes 17th. 

And if the conclusion to that, as we’ve drawn, or certainly as I’ve drawn, I think as we’ve drawn, and most Evertonians are drawn, is no, then you have to move on to the next question, which is, okay, who do we replace them with, and how quickly can we do that? 

Paul:  Because every game that goes by not only reduces our prospects of staying in the league, because one assumes that the poor results continue, but leaves less time for whoever’s coming in to make the turnaround that has to be made. 

Andy: Okay, so let’s, let’s then hope that the Friedkins have got the clauses in the deal with Moshiri that they can influence the future, actually ahead of them finalizing the deal. And, and possibly with another international break coming up, that they’ve already drawn up those plans for replacement. 

They’ve already got somebody ready to bring in, and almost irrespective of the result against West Ham next weekend. That’s, that’s time up for Sean Dyche. The new guy can come in, and he’s got two weeks before the next game to talk to the players, try and get used to the players, try and impart some new philosophy upon them, some new belief, some new self beliefs, some more confidence, etc, etc, 

etc. And we can go into December, hopefully, in a better frame of mind than we’re currently in. If they haven’t got that, if they haven’t got those clauses with Moshiri and they’re not able to do anything between now and let’s say the start of December then heaven help us with this with December’s fixtures because you asked the question before Paul how many points do you see us getting from the next ten games and it ain’t many so I kind of I kind of hope that they have got those those clauses with Moshiri and they they are already working hard or you know on identifying the manager that they will give sufficient time to to bring about the changes that’s needed on the field to send us all into the second half of the season. 

and ultimately into a new stadium, still in the Premier League, and with a whole better frame of mind right across the club. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I would argue strongly that it’s not gonna happen before the West Ham game, obviously, oh, I say obviously, I don’t think it’s gonna happen before the West Ham game. 

George: But the West Ham game should be Sean Dyche’s last game managing Everton Football Club. That’s on the assumption that the Friedkins have got, you know, as we said, the enzymes, that they should have, and that they’ve actually got somebody ready to go, ready to slot straight in. 

Paul: Yeah, and if not, it still could be his last game, because, you know, Moshiri in the past has not been scared to pull the trigger, has he? And in fact, you know, I think it was at West Ham, wasn’t it, that Lampard lost his job, if you recall? 

Andy: Oh, what a shame. 

Paul: When Bill and Moshiri were caught by the cameras getting into the car. Yeah. Ironically, at West Ham. Yeah, as I said, at West Ham. So there’s a sort of, there’s history there. Well, there you go. 

I hope it repeats itself. Passionate discussion. We need to, you know, I’m going to conclude by saying we need to address these issues, and these, as in everything in life, the sooner a problem is addressed, the sooner the solution is found. 

We have to do it, we have to do it now, and with some gratitude to Sean Dyche. for what he’s done previously, but we just have to face the reality. We can’t afford to have him as manager for the next 10 games and beyond. 

Andy: So let’s just do it. Yeah, before we go, I know that was your closing argument. A few times in recent past, we’ve included comments from the fans and we’ve named a couple of fans. Ar kid, you owe one of our supporters an apology. 

George: All right. 

Andy: Yeah. One of our supporters in the US is demanding an apology.

George:  Okay. What have I done? 

Andy: Oh, it’s not in relation to the event that’s taking place in the US on Tuesday. Right. But there’s a lady in Georgia, by the name of Anna, right? 

She is seriously upset with you. 

George: Sorry, Anna.

Andy: Because when you were in a Touch of Frost, you shot George Tulin. I was supposed to kill Inspector Frost, Andy. I know that, and you know that, but you shot George Tulin, and Anna is most upset and is demanding an apology. 

George:  Sorry, Anna. Grow up. Put yourself together. It’s a drama. It’s television. And that actor got paid a fortune for being killed by me. And the Ranger T-shirts that I put out, I’ve also killed Kylie Minogue, Anna. 

I’ll have you know. In an episode of Doctor Who, I’ve got a list of corpses that you would not believe, Anna. And if you don’t want me to add you to it, hook up. Just to finish, her husband reminded me that when they watched you in Happy Valley, I’m reading his text here. 

She narrowed her eyes and said, there’s your mate that shot George Tulin. At which her husband was telling about your distaste for Man United. And she looked up and said, I bet Tulin was a United man and that’s why he shot him. 

George: I don’t know what she’s talking about, Andy, because I didn’t shoot him, did I? That bloke didn’t have a gun. I just ran into him in the car. Well, she’s of the opinion that you shot him and she wants an apology. 

Well, Anna, right, go back and watch the episode and then phone me, because this is a silly conversation. I did. I don’t have a gun. That character doesn’t have a gun. He was trying to run down and inspect some of his spectre for us. 

But he didn’t. And if you really will be aged, I’ll tell you why. But anyway.

Andy:  Well, I did promise her that I’d get a mention on T2B, so I’ve done my bit. 

Paul: Well, George, if you did choose whoever it was that you’re supposed to have shot, you’re a better shot than DCL. 

George: Yeah. Well, I never did it. Never mind. OK, come on, let’s stuff these hammers. And by the way, just just you’re wrong about the number of points we’re going to get because the players will go, great. 

Nobody expects us to play to get anything from any of these games. We’re going to stuff it up all those cynics. And I think they’ll get 10 points from those 10 games at least. I so hope you’re right, Arkid. 

Let’s hope some of them are listening to Talking the Blues and are absolutely furious at us castigating them, and they’re going to go out there and disprove everything that we’ve said. Yeah, and they’re all George Tooney fans, whoever he was. 

Paul: Oh dear, gents, thank you so much. Thank you to everybody for listening. Thank you for all the kind comments that we receive. And it’s great, Andy, it’s great that people communicate with you from overseas. 

I just get the moans, you get the fan mail. Right, gents, thanks so much. Thank you, everybody. And, well, yeah, let’s talk after West Ham and see where we’re at. George Tooney, thank you both. Bye.