Paul: Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, depending on where in the world you are, what time of the day you’re listening to this episode of Talking Blues podcast. George and Andy, how are you both? Very good. Good, excellent.Well, and just a little explanation in terms of the music, we don’t always have music these days, but this week, obviously referencing both Foxes. And whilst I don’t really think Jimmy Garner or James Garner, the name Jimmy the Weed, I just thought it was a funny reference. And there we go. 

George: Moyes, called him didn’t he? always called him Jimmy in the press conference. 

Paul: Jimmy the Weed, which is the reference in the music. 

George: And anyway, he probably calls everybody Jimmy. That wasn’t racist. What do you mean? 

Paul: You can see my inbox filling up already, George. 

George: Well, I haven’t got one.

Paul: Look, spirits are very high. And what a difference a few weeks make, discussed 

George: And let me, let me have a go. This is really simple. It was terrific yesterday, really good fun, really enjoyable. Millions of points to it’s lovely to see the smile on Beto’s face. I’m very glad he didn’t do that mad celebration a second time. 

But the grin that he gave Ghana for that peach of a pass that was that, you know, if you’d paid to go that was worth every penny of it marvelous. Plus the fact that Tim Iroegbunam got back on the pitch. That’s a major, major plus. That’s really good. All that’s really good.

I was baffled by what we were supposed to learn from bringing Ashley Young on with 15s ago, but that’s neither into that. This is what I want to say. All this is excellent.

 Next Saturday is a big, big test. We’re playing a proper team. I think the Spurs are weak. Brighton were weak and clearly weaker yesterday. We couldn’t buy Oz yesterday. And Leicester were hopeless. 

Saturday against Bournemouth is a big one, a really big one. And I think if we get honest, honestly, for now, I take a point. I would be thrilled to get so much.

Andy:  Sorry, mate. It’s a Cup game. 

George:  Oh, is it?

Andy: It’s the FA Cup, bro. We’ve already been done by Bournemouth twice in the league. It’s the FA Cup. 

George: I didn’t realise that. I thought it was, only a couple of weeks ago we’d play it anyway. Oh sorry, all right, then scrap all that. Should be starting. 

Paul: Here we start again. 

George:  Well, I was going to say that, you know, what, what, what Moyes achieved since his return is nothing really short of spectacular. He can be, you know, he could be quite easily forgiven for the defeat to Villa.

 But the Spurs performance, the way he masterminded the win at Brighton and the way we played yesterday, he gets full credit for, full credit. And when, when the previous manager met with the owners and said that he didn’t think he could do any more with the players at his disposal, well, Moyes has made him look a complete and utter plonker, because he’s done more in three weeks than he did in three months and a whole lot longer, if the truth be told. So Moyes deserves a lot of credit.

But the acid test now is for the next two days. Yeah, as you rightly said, kid, you know, Spurs were weak. We did a number on Brighton. And yesterday, we never, never, you know, quite literally never allowed Leicester to get out of the trap. 

And Bournemouth in the cup, and then them across the park the following Tuesday will be the acid test for this new David Moyes regime. So fantastic what he’s done so far. But just a word of caution that the next two games really will be. And as I said, the acid, the media acid test, if we can, if we can beat Bournemouth, then that would put in, you know, obviously in the next round of the FA Cup, and it would send us into the Derby, highest case, and then bring them on. 

George: Am I writing something with your hobby? It’s three days after we play Bournemouth. 

Yeah, it’s huge. 

So if you were David Moyes, guys, what difference would that make to your team selection for Bournemouth? 

Andy: I don’t know. 

Paul:  Will he make any difference at all because we’ve only basically got a first 11 exactly or you know 

Andy No resources at his disposal at the moment, our kids, so it’s missing the bench again. Sorry George, say that again. 

George: Obviously, he put two goalies on the bench again yesterday. 

Andy: Seems to be doing good for Everton at the moment doesn’t it? I wouldn’t worry too much about the two goalies, it’s more important who’s filling the other five positions on the bench.What he’s got at his disposal as outfield players, we all know that Begovic, you know, should something happen and God forbid it doesn’t, but should something happen to Jordan Pickford, we know that Begovic is a more than capable keeper and we know that Virginia isn’t a bad keeper either, so I wouldn’t worry about the two keepers on the bench. 

Yes, it’s annoying that we’re not able to fill the bench with more outfield players, but with the outfield players we’ve got as his disposal from the squad at the moment, as long as he picks positive and, you know, replacements on the bench, like it’s good to have your opening back available. Young is multi-faceted if you like, he can play it either flank and he can play forward which he came on to do yesterday when he replaced Lindstrom, he was pushed forward straight away, which he said he wants to play more, he’d rather play further forward if he can, and if he’s coming on as a sub he should be fresh as a daisy in 60 minutes and ready to run his heart out for 30 minutes. 

George: I’m sorry, I know we’ve got a lot to talk about today, just clear this up for me, because I’m baffled by the two goalies thing. And I take your point about don’t worry about it, because it happens in any way, how can I affect it.But are you seriously both of you telling me there is no other registered Everton player who could deserve a seat on the bench to learn a little bit about what it feels like to be part of a match day squad la la la la. Are you seriously telling me that?

Andy: No, I’m not saying that. Oh, right.So what I’m saying is that with the resources he’s got available, Moyes will pick and Dyche before him will pick five players to sit on the bench who needs must. They would be willing to put into the fray. But where we are at the moment and the stage of the season at the moment, I get your grift about bringing the kids up and giving them the experience of… 

George: I’m asking you that question. I’m not I’m not trying to make a point. I’m asking you a question because I’m baffled.Are we saying there is no other player? An outfield player that he could possibly go, this is what it feels like, son. He has to have two goal. I just do it that’s the truth, that’s fine. I’ll shut up. But are you seriously saying that? 

Andy: Well, I’m not saying it, but the fact that two managers, whether we liked them or not, two successive managers have felt that is the, that is what needs to be done.I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know enough about number 21 to say, yes, this guy’s, this guy should step up or should be, should be given the experience of being part of the first team squad for a couple of days. 

Paul: I’m going to jump in here and speak on behalf of the Begovic camp, if you don’t mind. No, not at all. Begovic has a role, Everton, and it has been the case for quite a while now, not just since Moyes has been here.

 It’s very much more than just being a third-choice goalkeeper. He’s obviously a very experienced professional. He’s seen the game at the highest level and been successful at the highest level, and his input at the squad level and his knowledge of the game and the respect that his fellow professionals have for him is such that just his presence alone is of benefit to the squad.

Now, you could argue that that might be achieved anyway without him sitting on the bench, but the fact is that he is sitting on the bench, and I think you only have to cast your mind back to the Brighton game last week when there was a bit of a kerfuffle at the end of the game. Who was the first off the bench and into the ruckus that was happening at the far end of the pitch away from the Everton supporters? Begovic. 

George: I’m going to take all of that on board, thanks very much. What’s, what’s, so, Jao Virginia, what did you do there then? 

Paul: Well, Jao Virginia is in pure goalkeeping terms. You know, the next choice, he is the number two goalkeeper. 

George: I see what  you’re saying is, if he gets injured, Jao Virginia goes on and Begovic has another role to play. That’s what you’re saying. 

Paul: And then he would be the number, you know, God forbid, but let’s say, well, say God forbid, but I’m going to come back to this point in a minute. If Jordan Pickford wasn’t available, then Jao Virginia becomes number one goalkeeper and Begovic would be the number two goalkeeper.

 So he has to have some match readiness, he has to be match day ready because, you know, he’s only one game away from becoming the reserve goalkeeper. So that’s a benefit to having him on the bench and having him part of the squad that prepares for each match, that he is match ready.

 Obviously, he’s not playing and the chances of him playing are minimal, but nevertheless, you know, I think in the absence of there being other strong candidates for the bench, it’s a wise strategy.And as I say, speaking to people that know him and other people within the club, his role, you know, is not noticed by many, but noticed by those people who are within the club and particularly the players is significant. 

And he is a consummate professional. The point about the goalkeeper is interesting, interesting from my perspective. And I was going to bring this point up later, but we may as well deal with it now. 

Because under Sean Dyche, we scored so very few goals, the performance of our goalkeeper and the performance of our defence was instrumental to the results that Everton had, good or bad, because when we weren’t scoring goals, it was very important that we conceded as few goals as possible. 

And that’s changed a little bit since Moyes has come. And obviously, it’s only a very small sample. But if you look at, obviously, we started scoring more goals. So, you know, we’ve scored, on average, two goals a game now against 0.8 of a goal under Dyche, previously.

 But I think also the really interesting statistics are coming out of, and again, it’s only a very short period of time, is that we are having less shots on target against us, which we’re facing significantly less shots overall.

 I mean, Brighton had lots of shots last week, but none were on target. And we’re conceding far fewer goals than we were. I would argue that actually the position of goalkeeper now is of less importance to us.

 Obviously, we want Jordan and Pickford to play 38 league games a season. But the position of goalkeeper is less important today than it was a month ago, for all of those reasons.The fact that we’re more likely to score, the fact that we’re conceding less chances means that, actually, in the event that Jordan and Pickford wasn’t available, it’s less of an issue than it would have been a month ago.

Fair point. But just going back to one of the initial points we’ve made about it, it’s surely more than coincidence that the teams that we’ve played so far appeared not to have played their best games. And I think they’ve not played their best games, Tottenham, Brighton, and Leicester yesterday. And obviously, Leicester, apart from the Tottenham results, are in a difficult phase of the season, shall we say. We’re just not allowing them to play. 

George:  Mm hmm. Well, this evidence was taken by surprise yesterday to kneel down inside six minutes. 

Paul: Everything is chalk and cheese, isn’t it? I mean, you could just, you could just, every aspect of our game yesterday was different from what it was a month ago. The players were enjoying themselves, they got on the front foot, they wanted the ball, they kept. I know Moyes commented that perhaps there is a phase in certainly, in the first half, in the middle of the first half where we lost possession quite a bit, but Leicester were not in any position to take advantage of it.

And the fact is, is that we’re, you know, we’re playing decent, attractive football, and Andy, as you correctly identified, was obviously clear from, from the score. You know, we’re going out and we’re taking control, we’re trying to take control of the games from, from kickoff. And it’s so, I think that’s so important. And this whole Dyche philosophy of playing football without having possession of football, it’s just being cast aside. 

And Moyes has gone back to, particularly, I think, and I think we’ll see this with the remaining games at Goodison, obviously less so for away games, where the onus is on the home side to attack. 

I think we’ll see us coming, trying to come out of the traps as quickly as possible. And we will be much more aggressive, and much more assertive, and much more a much more possession-based football team, even with the same players, virtually the same, well, at the moment, the same players that we had playing for us under Sean Dyche. 

And that’s sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, just finished. That’s just because of the change of manager, and the change of footballing philosophy as a result of the new man, the new old manager coming in. Yeah. 

George: And we’ve had less possession than Spurs, Brighton, Aston Villa and Leicester and we’ve beaten three of them and lost to the other one so we’re certainly playing better football and he’s told them to pass to each other and some of it’s an absolute pleasure but and it is you know it was interesting yesterday I watched a couple of long balls and thought oh this is interesting if you do occasionally belt it up to a bloke who six foot four who had actually I thought better would rather a good game at controlling some of those big balls then you’re forcing you’re letting the opposition know that they well they can’t play a high line because what happens if you know what happens if they do what they did in the first 18 seconds one slip and the ball’s in the back of the net.

So I was kind of intrigued by all that because you know we did play and you’re right we did lose the ball from time to time but it was a it was a very interesting afternoon and obviously super positive one

Paul: Well, Moyes, Moyes is clearly mixing it up, isn’t it? I mean, you know, the fact that the ball went straight back to Pickford and Pickford launched a long one. That might have been, at any time, the way that we played under Sean Dyche.

 But it worked.And I think Beto’s role actually in that first goal, you know, within 12 seconds, can’t be underestimated, because it was his physicality in the middle of the pitch that allowed Dukori to go on and score. Sorry, Andy, you were about to say. 

Andy: No, all I was going to add was I think the other biggest difference in these last four games is, well, certainly in the last three games, is the players are clearly happier. 

George: Released. 

George:  They’re all playing with a smile on their face, they’re all, I mean Doucoure looks like he’s had another battery shoved up his backside because five or six weeks ago he was looking leggy, lethargic and to some degree disinterested.

 He looks a different player, looks a different, for me he’s the Doucoure that we first signed, he is all over the place and he has, you know, I think his engine has been revitalised.I think the players are happier, I think because they’re getting better direction in training, they’re getting better direction in the way the game plan is worked out and they’re being sent out onto the pitch from a manager who hasn’t always been positively minded but is clearly considerably more positively minded than his predecessor. 

Andy: 100%. 

George:  You know, I think, you know, I think that the players now are enjoying doing what they do, which is play football rather than defend and hope for the best. I mean, you know, it couldn’t have been much fun, you know, for any of them, even those who may or may not have liked Dyche and understood what his methodology was about, you know, the former Burnley players, I mean.

But it really is chalk and cheese for me in the players. I mean, you know, Garner has been out for a long time, and he’s come in because he’s had to, because we’re shorter bodies. And he came in, slotted in seamlessly yesterday, seamlessly, got about the pitch. As you see, the ball for the third goal just before half time was an absolute peach. That was worth the admission money alone to see that ball. 

But think about the second goal and the ball from Tarkowski. Yeah, that was first, you know, that wasn’t that was from a, you know, I’m not saying that centre-hours can’t pass a ball.

 I’m not saying that at all. But that was from a guy whose number one role from the Dyche was defend, defend, defend. And the only time, you know, we saw something remotely aggressive, and I don’t mean physicality, I mean, in attacking wise, was at set pieces from James Tarkowski. 

But yesterday, he was moving the ball around, and it was his ball, and it was a good ball, because it I mean, Garner was straight through, straight through the eye of a needle. Whereas the ball from Tarkowski, if you look at it from behind the goal, he plays that perfectly, he bends it round the defender perfectly into the path of Beto.

 Oh, we’ve said that ages on it, put the ball in front of people for them to run on to doesn’t matter who it is, whether it’s a winger, a centre forward, an overlapping fullback, a midfielder, if you put the ball in front of them, so that they can run on to it without having to stop and check and come inside, then it’s the defender that’s got the issue that he’s got to turn and catch up with a guy who’s got momentum on his side and Beto had momentum on his side for both of those goals. And he finished them. The second one, actually was a lovely finish to me, it was a simple finish, but he did it so well. That was a good finish.

 In actual fact, his first finish was a good finish as well, because he looked up and he could have blasted it, but he didn’t. He took it with the inside of his foot, he placed that. I was very impressed with Beto yesterday and we said it last week, give him the chance, give him the responsibility and let’s see if he can live up to it. And yesterday, he took a major step forward. Thank you. 

George: Can I just add on the subject of Tarkowski, that at the moment, in the back four, there are three guys there, and with no disrespect to Mykolenko, who’s crossing can sometimes be really potent, but Branthwaite, Tarkowski, and O’Brien can all pass the ball. 

There’s a future here where we keep the ball on the deck and we absolutely begin to play some stuff. All three of them, they’re good. 

Andy: No, you’re right. I mentioned that because now Tarkowski has got, you know, he’s building that relationship and understanding with O’Brien, particularly, he already added an understanding of the relationship with Branthwaite

But now he’s got help on the other side. And he’s able, if you like, not to be the all important member of the defence. He’s one of three. He’s probably seeing a little less of the action because the other two are playing so well alongside him.

And it’s probably given Tarkowski a little bit of a breather in terms of how much responsibility he’s having to soak up, as, you know, in the absence of Coleman, he’s the captain, you know, captain and being, you know, the organiser of the defence.

 He’s now got two lads alongside him, who have slotted in excellently. I mean, O’Brien looks a real fine, a real fine. And there’s another black mark against Dyche. Why on earth couldn’t he see this? You know, well, enough of it, he’s gone. And he should be actually not enough of it. 

Sean Dyche should be thoroughly ashamed and embarrassed of himself. But what he said about he couldn’t get any more from these players. Because it was, it was tantamount to saying these players don’t listen and don’t can’t adjust to me, don’t work for me or whatever. And Moyes, Moyes has made him look stupid. So he should be ashamed of himself, really. 

Paul: It was a confession by Dyche. It was a confession of his own limitations.He tried at various points in joining his managerial career to blame the players and increasingly so as time went on that the players weren’t good enough, that they couldn’t do anything other than the type of football that he wanted them to play. 

When the reality actually was that this is the only style of football that Dyche knew and he was incapable of coaching the side to do anything other than what they were doing because that’s the one way that he knew how to play football. As limited as it is, it kept everything in the division for one season and kept Burnley in the division for many seasons. 

So that’s probably his justification for doing what he did but he didn’t have the ability to do anything differently and then when you get somebody like Moyes and I know it sounds like Moyes is sending me checks every day to talk nicely about him, he’s not because he doesn’t have to.

 When you get something like Moyes it comes along and you know look at that starting 11 yesterday. 

Which of these players can’t play football? O’Brien, Tarkowski, as you just mentioned, Branthwaite certainly. O’Brien looks as if he can play football but he’s a young lad. Mykolenko, I think he will develop under Baines and he will develop under Moyes. 

Ghana Gueye sitting just in front of, when we’re out of possession, the back four, the back four, look at the levels of football that he’s played throughout his career. 

There’s very little that Sean Dyche could ever have told Ghana Guye about how to play football and he was a limiting factor on Ghan Guye, when he was manager.

 And then you look at the midfield and we do need to improve the midfield and as great as it was to see Doucoure returning to some form yesterday and you know a lovely finish for his goal. 

He’s probably not the answer going forwards but Lindstrom looks like he could be a player and looks like under the right coaching and in the right style of playing he’s going to contribute a lot. Jimmy Garner, which we started the podcast with. Jimmy, see you. 

George:  Hey, you too. 

Paul: You’re doubling down on this, George. You’re definitely doubling down.James Garner is a player. He’s an intelligent player. And when he’s fit, we all know that he can play football.

 And again, he demonstrated that yesterday.And I mean, what do you say about Ndiaye? He was superb yesterday, absolutely superb. And I’m going to ask you a question. Which player did he remind you of most? Let’s say he’s played for Everton in the last 25 years. 

George: Mm-hmm. It’s a quiz. 

Paul: And he used to play for Liverpool. 

George: No, I, no, I have no idea. 

Paul: Yeah, Peter Beardsley

George:  You run for me, Peter Beardsley, yes, thanks. 

George: And I’m just going to go back a bit. I’m going to defend. You’ll like this ball. I’m going to defend Sean Dyche again. In only this manner, I don’t disagree with the word you said, but were Everton at the time that he, that Doucoure buried the ball in the back of whoever it was his net and we were safe again. 

Well, had Everton had a functioning board and a functioning chairman and a functioning CEO and a functioning owner, they would have said, Sean, we’re proud to bits of you, mate. Thank you very, very much.

 Here is a big bag for you. Off you go, because now that you’ve saved us, we’re going to move on. And they didn’t.

And he was left to pick up no pieces at all because the club was so badly run that he had a shit end to deal with. And you’re right, he ran out of gas and it was a confession. And it was, please release me. Let me go and let me go with a load of money as well. But that’s another issue. You’re right about his limitations, but I feel that had the club been a proper football club, they would have dealt with him in a kinder way, a good deal earlier. 

But everything you say about, you know, the fact that he obviously held players back, like O’Brien’s the most obvious example, and you may be right about Ghana Gueye as well. And Andy, you’re totally right to say you could see it, you know, from a million miles away yesterday. 

The players are like handcuffs are off. We’re a full team again. That Dyche takes some blame for that. But I do, I personally think the man did his best to keep his dignity. I’m not saying he didn’t do his best. The people above him at Everton showed none at all.And I’m glad that whole era is going. But I’d rather, personally, I would save my bile for them rather than him. He did his best. It wasn’t in the end enough to move us on a different level. And Moyse has already done that. I just, you know, that end of. 

All right, we’ll stop till we’re in. 

Paul: I think it’s a very valid point. And, you know, we’ve been constant critics of the Everton board for many, many years, and that should never ever be forgotten.

And, it’s not fully resolved yet. I mean, you know, we’re, we’re still in a position, okay, we’ve got new board members who are related, obviously, and part of the Friedkin group. And that’s great. 

And they will bring professionalism and expertise, and a clarity in terms of what the ownership wants, and the direction which the ownership wants to take us, that we’ve not had for certainly the machinery period and for a large part of the Kenwright period as well. 

So already a massive difference, but that still needs if one compares the Everson board with the boards of the clubs that we want to compete against. You know, there’s still a huge amount of work that needs to be done there. And, you know, something that I will come to towards the end end of the the podcast, and the Friedkins have got an awful lot of work to do still, just the fact that David Moyes has turned up on one a few games, doesn’t change anything in terms of, you know, if you look at the club in totality, and what is required to be done at the club, there is an awful lot of work that needs doing. 

And that means an awful lot of new people coming in to run the business professionally, and one that hopes that much more successfully in the future. So and that fits in very nicely with your comments, George. 

George: Well, can I just add to them, then, that I had a text this morning from a scouser friend of mine, who’s a season ticket holder and, you know, it’s probably with respect to all three of us got her nose a little closer to the ground than we are. And she said that the difference in the club is astonishing.

What Moyes has done, she said he stopped all the ITKs. I’ve had to ask her what that means. Apparently it means people who think they’re in the know and the leaking that you’ve always banged on about Andy, it’s all stopped. And what you said, Paul, ages ago in your, you know, punting for Moyes to become manager, he knows the club.

 And she said the health of the club in the three weeks, four weeks that he’s been there is completely tipped on its head and the whole atmosphere is much, much, much healthier. Now, there is no way that Dyche could do that. 

And you’ve been proved right in defending Moyes because he does know the club. And also, as you’d also said, he’s not going to delegate. He knows exactly what he wants and he’ll get it. But the fact that he stopped all the tittle-tattle and twaddling and, you know, the stuff that makes us look amateur. Suddenly, that was very encouraging to him and a pleasure to add to what you just said. 

Paul: Yeah, I think it’s a very important point, especially the leaking of information and the lack of professionalism around how the club was run, because that was just one example of many areas. 

George: Mmhmm. 

Paul: And obviously in a small number of weeks, neither the Friedkins nor Moyes can, first of all, identify every problem and secondly, can obviously not not solve every problem. But that is a clear indicator of the direction in which we’re going in that we are going to be a very, very different club.And all of these things, they’re all they’re all adding together, aren’t they, to making us a much more competitive, which is what we’ve always asked for, a much more competitive group to have a much more competitive group of players on the pitch. 

George: Are we going to do any business tomorrow, Jesus? 

Paul: I think we’re going to do very limited business, to be honest, and, you know, I think we will be getting better, will we? It’s quite interesting that, you know, the comments that David Moyes made were slightly misinterpreted. I think in the press as, as, you know, that they want to make it sensationalist that perhaps he didn’t understand how difficult a position the club was in.

I think he knew how difficult a position the club was in, but it just demonstrates again that, you know, we’re, we’re still dealing with the legacy issues that the Friedkins inherited, i.e. that, you know, the losses of the previous three years are still impacting our ability to deal in the transfer window. And it’s not because we don’t have the money now to make those deals, it’s because the business is a

George:  There’s no wriggling on this stuff. 

Paul: has all of these legacy losses from previous years. And b) we’re not generating enough revenue yet to make good those losses, which would then mean that we can go on to spend that money in a transfer window without having any problems.

I think it was you, Andy, you pointed out that Liverpool as a result of finishing top of the Champions League stage. 

George: Yeah. 

Paul: Have won themselves £80 million this season. 

George:  Yeah. 

Paul: That’s all revenue that can then be spent on player transfers or player wages. I’m not saying that we’re in a position, we’re going to get into a position very soon, because clearly we’re not, where we’re going to finish top of the Champions League stage. But it just demonstrates the difference between being successful on the pitch and not being successful on the pitch. And it demonstrates the difficulties that we’ve still got going forwards.

But some of those difficulties will be obviously reduced when we move into brand new more and revenues increase and sponsorships increase and everything else. But it’s there in plain sight. All the stuff that we’ve talked about in terms of the lack of professionals and running the club, the fact that Moshiri was completely clueless, the fact that the people he was talking to about buying the club had no more great, better ideas about running the club than he had, in fact, had no more money than he had to run the club. These are all the issues which the club is still facing, and it’s going to take Moyes and it’s going to take the Friedkins a little while to unwind all of those positions.

That’s not to say that there’s not comments to be made about the Friedkins. I’ll make them as we get towards the end of the end of the podcast. But, you know, that is the reality of the situation. 

George: Hello, she comments about the Friedkins, Paul:. 

Paul: Well, I think it’s right. It’s about communications. And I understand entirely, you know, I think I’ve said this before, I understand exactly where they’re coming from, they’re a private business, family run business, that Everton is a, you know, a private company, and that they don’t need, there’s no moral there’s no legal obligation for them to communicate any more than they are doing, which is normal. But I actually think that they’re missing a bit of a trick here. I think

George: What would you advise them to become involved in? 

Paul: Okay, in the same way that David Moyes has spoken directly to the Everton fan base because he has that relationship and he has that bank of goodwill, which allows him to talk openly and honestly to the fan base and for the fan base largely to accept what he’s saying. I would argue that the Friedkins don’t have that goodwill yet, because they’re new, and we’ve got no real experience of them.

They’ve got no real experience of us. I think a much more detailed discussion as to what their plans are for the football club. So broadly speaking when they came in, they made all the right comments about the club being one of the most historic clubs in English football and its importance to the city of Liverpool and its importance to the community and the custodian elements of ownership, which is all great.

 But actually, what we need to know, and I genuinely mean this, what we need to know so that we can buy into it and we can be part of that journey, is how exactly do they propose to take us from where we are now to where we want to be. 

So bringing in David Moyes is just one element of a very, it’s one piece in a very complex jigsaw as to how the football club becomes competitive. 

And if they or any of their representatives are listening to this, I would absolutely implore them to think about the specific requirements of Everton football club in terms of earning Everton’s fan’s trust. And why do they have to do that? They have to do that because for 30 years, our trust has been abused. 

It was abused under the Kenwright regime, and it was abused under the Moshirii regime. And therefore, there is now a body of evidence within the fan base that says, actually, none of our owners can be trusted because they don’t talk to us, they don’t listen to us, they don’t understand us, and they don’t tell us what they’re going to do to make our football club better in the future. The Friedkins could win. Go on, George. 

George: Well, well, I was going to say, in purely practical terms, what do you want them to do if they are listening to this, and they phone you up and go on, then what do you want us to say? What’s the answer to that question? 

Paul: The answer is, is that they have to sit down in open forums. And they have to talk, they have to, they have to present a vision. 

And they have to present a route map for that vision. So this is where we want to get to. So that’s the destination, which is sitting over there somewhere.And this is how this is how we think we’re going to achieve it. 

We’re going to achieve it by better coaching, better management, better recruiting, better scouting, better commercial performance, utilizing Bramley-Moore, the development opportunities around Bramley-Moore.

 I mean, you know, we’re moving into a brand new stadium in less than eight months time, seven months time now, because we’re at the end, we’re now in February. Six months time, actually, we’re moving into a brand new stadium.Nobody knows what the development plans are around Bramley-Moore. Some people

George:  Right at the start of that, you said they should engage in open forums, wouldn’t the initial open forum be to reinstate AGMs and meetings with the shareholders’ associations? Well, the AGMs got scrapped under Kenride, and the last one I went to was farcical, if I’m brutally honest. And I just think that, you know, if you use the phrase open forum, surely the initial open forum would be with the shareholders at the AGM. 

Paul: And this is the controversial piece that I decided not to talk about last week, if you recall. 

George:  OK. Yeah. 

Paul: I don’t think I don’t think the shareholder, the group of shareholders, which is about 1400 people, are necessarily representative of the fan base. 

George:  Maybe not maybe not but it is an initial thought it is an initial forum that the free kids could use before taking it to a wider forum 

Paul: I disagree with that 100%. I’m not trying to disenfranchise the shareholders because they have a legal status that is not the privilege of every Evertonian because they’re part owners of the football club even if they own a very small fraction of the football club.But how about this? 

How about actually, rather than having 1400 shareholders, we open up a form of ownership of the club to every single Evertonian around the world, not those that can afford £3,500 to buy a single share at auction, not those that have the ability or the knowledge in order to do that, let alone the funds to do it.

 But we create, for example, as it’s the case with Barcelona, just as one example, a membership club, a club that, yes, is majority owned by the Friedkins and will always be funded by the Friedkins. And just like every other successful football club is funded by extraordinarily wealthy people, Friedkins, the state, as in Manchester City, for example, or oligarchs. I’m not arguing about that. 

That’s the commercial reality and the economic reality of modern football, that you need those people to provide the funds to run football clubs. What I’m talking about is a much more open ownership model, that A gives a sense of ownership to a much greater number of people. So rather than 1400, why can’t it be 150,000? 

Why can’t there be 200,000 Evertonians around the world? They don’t have to have the right to be involved in the decision making because the Friedkins already own 99.5% of the club.

 Most shareholders I speak to at Everton talk about, they’re not really interested in that, they just want, this is an emotional decision, it’s a feeling of, I own part of my football club. Well, let’s take that and let’s be more, I use the phrase in what I wrote during the week, let’s be more egalitarian about this, let’s open up that membership, that ownership membership to a far greater number of Evertonians. 

It doesn’t change the fact that the Friedkins, how? Well, you can issue, you can change the capital structure of Everton Football Club, you can issue as many shares as you want to issue at a price that is affordable to Evertonians, ordinary Evertonians. 

And you can make as many shareholders, shareholder members as you want to. I think there’s an opportunity here going into a new stadium under new ownership and one would hope with the degree of stability in terms of how the club is run and how it performs on the football pitch. Two, we’ve always been people, we’ve always been a club that creates firsts within football.

 Now, this wouldn’t be the first occasion where a football club has a much wider ownership and membership model, Barcelona, I’ve already used it as an example. But why can’t we look at that? And in the meantime, between now and whenever that can be created, why can’t they communicate in such a way as if that was already in situ? I.e. open up the books, open up what they think about the football club and what their plans are for the football club, engage with politicians. 

Look what, I’m sorry, I know I’m going on a bit of a rant, but look what happened in Manchester this week, where Manchester United are just at the very start of the process of possibly moving away from Old Trafford and redeveloping the whole of the Old Trafford area. They’ve already got… 

George: They’re looking for government grants to do it. Well, exactly. 

Paul: Exactly. They’ve already got Andy Burnham onside, excuse me. Who’s the Manchester mayor on side. And that’s his job as a Manchester mayor. He’s got Keir Starmer on side. They’ve got people in the House of Lords on side.

 And they’re asking for public money.You know, the wealthiest, the wealthiest man in England is asking for public money to build a new stadium for the company that he has control of. He doesn’t own the majority, but he has control of it. That’s the difference in approach.

 We’re not doing that. We nearly went bust building Bramley-Moore, and we’re going to be paying for Bramley-Moore for the next 30 years.

 I’m not suggesting that we get public funding for Bramley-Moore because I think that’s an inappropriate use of public funding when there’s massive queues in health service, when the education system is not working, and when there’s all sorts of problems within Care, for example.

And there’s a hundred other better uses of public money than building a football stadium. But the fact remains that Everton, under the previous ownership, and so far under the Friedkins, and it’s a bit early, I know in the Friedkins, is that there’s no yet, there’s no evidence yet of what are our plans. 

We talked about, and one of the reasons for building the stadium was the development potential that that stadium would bring to the city of Liverpool. What are our plans to make Everton Football Club the key component in the redevelopment of the North of Liverpool? 

And if we have such plans, tell us what those plans are.And if we don’t have those plans, let us get involved in that process. Let the people of Liverpool, the people of North Liverpool, be involved in that process. 

And I guess what I’m talking about here is a much wider, not just engagement process, but a much wider involvement process where we as a football club actually take on huge support. We act as the senior club in the city.

 And not only do we do great things on the pitch, not only do we do great things within the community, but we actually do great things for the city of Liverpool. And all of those opportunities are available to us, but we need to be able to engage with the Friedkins. 

And if they don’t, if they’re not yet aware of these opportunities, we need to be able to sell those opportunities to them. I’m asking what is the process and what is the mechanism for doing that? The mechanisms that we have in place currently are not the right mechanisms. Shareholders association, the fans forum, et cetera, and that’s not knocking any of those individuals. It’s just me putting forward my portfolio of ideas. 

George: I think it’s brilliant, Paul:. I’m not blowing smoke up your ass. I think that I think those are inspiring ideas. And I hope they do listen.And in terms of where you were 15 minutes ago about opening up a forum, I began to wonder whether you were going to say, you know, they should have a press conference, get the press out of it, talk to the fans, find a forum whereby the fans can say to the Friedkins, like just me personally, I’d go, tell us about the Academy. Tell us about why we’re not producing young players. What are you going to do about that? And I’m you know, I think I think you’re right. I think that that’s the forum they need to have with Evertonians, not with the press.Never mind all that. You know, we don’t have to get your own house in order first. And what you’re saying is we should all in some way feel like we are all members of that house and yeah, they sit at the top table. Fine, that’s cool. I’m really glad you came. But talk to us. Yeah, I’m 100 percent behind all that. 

Paul: Thank you for that, George. The economic and legal ownership of the club is well established. I mean, that clearly is in the hands of the free games and other people who provide the capital that allow the club to move to the stadium and to make good all of the damage that Mashiri did previously. What I’m saying is that the future direction of the club, the custodial element of ownership, lies with the Evertonians all around the world and lies, I think, with the people and the people of Liverpool.

Football is so important in England, generally. It’s become one of our great export stories in a world where we no longer export very many things, and it’s going to become increasingly difficult under Trump and in terms of our relationship with the European community or the EU, sorry, to be more accurate. Football is really important, and football is no more important anywhere in the world than it is in the North West of England. 

We’ve got a city 30 miles down the road with one that is owned and controlled by the wealthiest person in the UK, or one of the wealthiest persons in the UK, and the other one that’s owned by one of the wealthiest families in the Middle East. We need to compete with them. 

We, being the city of Liverpool, we need to compete with the city of Manchester. The city of Manchester and the city of Liverpool needs to work together to compete with the rest of England and with the rest of Europe, and there’s nothing in place currently that permits that to happen, and the Friedkins with their wealth and with their business experience and their intellect can come in and create that, but there needs to be the mechanisms in place where we, the ordinary fans, can have….

George: Nothing to add to that. 

Paul: I wasn’t quite planning that the podcast should go in this direction, but hey, we got there and I’ve said my piece. 

George: Let’s go and stuff Bournemouth. But I think, you know, I go back to where I was an hour ago, which is that the next game against Bournemouth, even though it is the Cup and this dolt didn’t know that, is crucial as to how quickly Moyse’s revolution has worked. If you can call it that even, I’m sure he wouldn’t. And fingers crossed that we can get a result.That would be brilliant. And then we could stuff the redshack. That would be major. 

Paul: Look, everyone, I don’t know how many more FA Cup games we’re going to have this season obviously, we’ve got at least one more, but this game could be our last FA Cup game ever at Goodison. Not because we get knocked out, but you know, even if we win, we could get drawn away in the fifth round, sixth round, semi-final, and then the final if we got that far.And it’s one of the very few remaining game, oh no it’s not under floodlights is it? The Derby will be one of the very few remaining games under Floodlights at Goodison. So yeah, all of these games are critical coming up. 

George: Mmhmm. 

Paul: Anyway, let’s not get away from the fact that we had a fantastic performance yesterday. And what a great pleasure it was.And we’ve all got Evertonian mates, obviously. 

The Evertonian listening to this, how much everybody really enjoyed the experience, how much the players enjoyed the experience. And I suppose, from my perspective, we can see what the difference the right leadership can make in a few weeks. And we should now look at that as an example of what can be achieved across the whole club. 

George: Welcome. 

Andy:  Exactly. I think that’s been quite a long one. 

Paul: But well, yeah, let’s hope even more changes are coming and coming quickly. We, you know, sorry, I’m going to get into another round. But we’ve been stagnant for far too long when we’ve got a lot of catching up to do.And I think Moyes sort of said about the football team, but, you know, it’s true the football club as well. 

George: Yeah, he knows he’s not soft. 

Paul: get that on your nose. And let’s hope he’s around to see it all come to fruition. Otherwise, we’ll end up going on another 20 minutes. Let’s leave it there.

We’ll talk to you after Bournemouth. Go, Moyes

 Cheers, guys. Thank you. Cheers, 

Paul:. Cheers, guys.