Paul 

 Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, depending upon when the world you are, what time of the day you’re listening to this episode, a post Manchester United,our last United game at Goodison, edition of Talking the Blues,

 Andy and George I am almost reluctant to say this but how are you both? 

Sorry Andy didn’t quite get that, what was that fuming?. 

George 

Fuming. 

Paul 

Well, yeah, let’s do a little bit longer. 

George 

Yeah. I thought my take on the game yesterday, Fair Play to United, we completely outplayed them, outfought them, outworked them and won the first half quite clearly.

 I don’t know what went wrong at halftime, but somebody’s foot came off the pedal and United worked hard enough to deserve their point, frankly. I mean, there were anomalies within it, not least the VAR decision, but on the actual balance of the whole game, I thought they kind of deserved their point. 

And anybody who listened to this knows that that’s not an easy thing for me to say, but that’s what I felt.And the other thing that I felt which annoyed me was that their manager called his substitutes quicker and better than we did. I thought my substitutions were correct and at least 15, if not 20 minutes too late. And then, you know, there’s all the rest of it, all the sort of VAR stuff over to you. 

Paul 

I think some sort of AI bot has taken over George’s account. 

George 

What do you mean? 

Paul 

I didn’t expect it to be so rational. 

George 

Oh, thanks. 

Andy 

I don’t disagree with too much of what you just said, but over the course of the 90 minutes, I don’t think they did deserve a point. I thought that first half, they were absolutely dreadful. 

George 

Well as good as we allowed them to be. We were very good. 

Andy 

Yeah, we were very good, but they were, they were shocking. Absolutely shocking. And I said it to you in the text, if we can get an early third or fold like a cheap suit. And we didn’t. 

And I guess we did pay the price for that.But I mean, you can, you know, fair play to Fernando as much as I dislike the guy, you know, his free kick was a peach. I’m not so sure it was a free kick, but then again, decisions go your way, decisions go against you. And it wasn’t, it wasn’t to be the last of the decisions that went against us. 

And that too, too, I take your point that they recovered themselves, they got the composure and they were immeasurably better than they’ve been in the first 65 minutes. But the game hinged on that disgraceful, absolutely deplorable. 

An unfathomable VAR decision to overturn the referee’s initial decision and from what’s more for the referee to cave in. 

George 

I’m so right in thinking there’s only been one occasion when the referee has overruled what the VAR have made him go and look at. 

Andy 

Yeah, Michael Oliver did it. 

George 

Yeah. He’s the only one, right? 

Andy 

But since the full-time whistle, there has been nobody, or I haven’t seen it and I haven’t heard it, but nobody within the game of football who’s seen that decision, seen the incident, and then heard the decision that can understand it and can justify it at all. 

Because, you know, the fact that the VAR didn’t show the camera angle from behind the goal, where the shirt pull on Ashley Young was quite clear.

 Now, you know, in the past, Young has had a tendency to go down rather too easily. But, and maybe his fall was a little bit theatrical yesterday, but there is no doubt whatsoever in anybody’s mind that there was at least one, if not two pulls on his shirt. 

Now, from the referee’s angle, he gave, you know, I mean, let’s be fair about it, there was no hesitation from the referee in giving that penalty. There was not even a one-second delay before he pointed to the spot. But then we had, however long it took, three minutes, whatever, two guys in Stockley Park doing their damnedest to find a way to overturn that decision. And that’s the only way I can put it. 

They were determined. And the very fact that when they suggested to the referee that he go and have a look at the screen, and we, you know, 99 times out of 100, we know what’s going to happen, he’s going to reverse the decision. That they didn’t show the camera angle, that clearly showed the shirt pull, is unforgivable. Absolutely unforgivable.And it’s unexplainable. 

You know, VAR is there, correct me if I’m wrong, but clear and obvious error. And there was no clear and obvious error. So the referee’s initial decision should have stood. And it should have been a penalty. Whether Everton scored from the penalty is a completely different issue, but it should have been a penalty. And you can bet your bottom dollar that the role’s been reversed and that had been at Old Trafford, and a United player going down and having his shirt called, nailed on, that would have been a penalty. Absolutely nailed on. 

As it would have been, probably, had it been them across the park and maybe Arsenal, because as so many people are saying, the way that VAR operate, or the way that the VAR officials operate, appears to be absolutely in the favour of the alleged so-called Big Six, because they get their decisions and the rest of us don’t. And that was absolutely criminal yesterday. 

This former referee’s have said it was an outrageous decision to overturn it. Every player that’s commenting on social media and whatever, even, you know, I mean, I did see it, I did watch it again on Match of the Day last night, and Lineker, Shearer, and Danny Murphy were all of one mind. No hesitation that that penalty should have been awarded. And then you’ve got, you know, Michael Owen came out and said it was a definite penalty.

 There’s even, you know, to be fair to him, plenty of reds from across the park are saying it was an outrageous call. Outrageous call. And if this is the way that football is going, that you’ve got guys who are influencing the outcomes again, that’s the only way it can be described as they are influencing and affecting the outcome of the game. 

Andy 

And it stinks and it leaves such a sour taste in the mouth that it makes you think that football is done.And I got a message last night from someone to say that the two VAR officials are both from Manchester. 

George 

Oh, what was your take on it, Paul? 

Paul 

Gosh, where’s the start really? I mean, the whole thing made a mockery of the rules as they’re written. 

You know, one can accept that there are errors and stuff. I mean, that’s just just life.But the whole purpose behind the AR is to eliminate errors. Not when there’s a close call, but when there’s a clear and obvious error. And there wasn’t, first of all, there wasn’t a clear and obvious error. 

And I think had we gone back, you know, five years ago, and there’d been no VAR, there would have been absolutely no doubt in anybody’s mind that that was a justly given penalty. You know, clearly from the camera behind the goal, there were clearly two tugs. And had that been anywhere else on the pitch, even with VAR, it would have been a foul. And that would have been the end of the matter. So, you know, it’s an absolute outrage. And I share Andy’s and his frustration. 

Andy 

Well, the other thing as well, if you don’t mind me just popping in again, yeah, it’s that. In those two VAR officials decided that there was no foul.So why wasn’t Ashley Young booked for diving? It wasn’t booked for diving because he didn’t frigging well dive and the referee knew it. 

Paul 

Yeah, I mean. 

Andy 

There’s a complete inconsistency in the rules. If someone is trying to come to the referee, they should be bought. 

Paul 

Yeah, it should have been done with simulation. 

Andy 

Exactly. Yeah, I got it. There’s only ever been two people. There’s only ever been two people who’ve been, for one of the better word, convicted of simulation.Umani asks, Oh, hello, played forever. And the other one was Zini when he was at West Ham. Those are the only two that have ever been, if you like, charged. 

So the Premier League, you know, the Premier League has brought in VAR. Well, I mean, obviously, it’s used elsewhere in Europe and in international competition, but the way the officials adjudicate in this country leads so much to be desired. 

And that’s understated. It absolutely stinks that so many decisions so badly made, you know, when the whole of football, literally the whole of football is saying that decision was wrong. And yet the Premier League will support the goons that were at Stockley Park that gave it, you know, they should be suspended from football for life for that day. That was it was nothing short of criminal. 

George 

Forgive me for being calm, because I respect what you’re saying and the way you’re saying it.Is this the same conversation that the Liverpool fans were having about Diaz’s goal that was scrubbed off against Spurs last year? 

Andy 

Probably. I can’t, I don’t, I don’t remember all of the fuss over that. But it was, it was an equally equally ridiculous decision. I totally agree.That’s, that’s my point. scandalous decision. 

You know, it spoiled, it spoiled the occasion yesterday, you know, everything with a better side by side. United, as you said, gave him a little bit of credit, you know, came back and, you know, Amarin got his substitutions right, and he got them right at the right time. Moyesy got his substitutions right, but he got them at the wrong time.

 I agree with that. But no, nobody, in years to come, the only thing that will get remembered from that game yesterday is, is the outrageous VAR call. And I’m sorry, I just, it just leaves such a, such a salutation. 

Paul 

George, a follower of ours, another guy called Andy, actually, but not you, Andy, who sits in the paddock at Goodison Park. 

He contacted me and asked me to pass on this message to you. I thought it made a great deal of sense.He wants to combine the use of VAR with one of your pet subjects, which is the amount of time that’s wasted in a game of football. 

And should there not be a system whereby they say that if something is referred to VAR, then there is a maximum amount of time in which the decision can be made. And if the consensus isn’t reached within that maximum amount of time, might be 20 seconds might be 30 seconds, then there can be no decision by VAR. 

So if it’s if they’re looking to knock off a goal, like with Beto, for example, or if they’re looking with regards to the penalty claim, if a decision is not made within 20 seconds, or if a consensus amongst the two who are in the truck somewhere else, they can’t reach a consensus and can’t provide the clear evidence to support whatever decision they make. Within 20 seconds, then VAR becomes null and void. 

George 

Um, you’d never get that. You know, I think it’s horrible to say this. I think Andy’s got a very, very good point about the fact that this is a toy for big clubs and big money. So you would never get past the Premier League consensus that they would agree to that.

And all I would say in terms of what that guy said, and I understand why he’s saying is, it’s simpler than that. You have a clock where, where the, where the scoreboard, where the big screens are at Goodison, and I’m sure they’ll be the same at family war, and they’re all over the place. 

You have a clock and you stop the clock. So if they take 15 minutes for the United fans in Stockley Bridge to sort out how they can cheat their way around this so that United don’t lose or don’t concede a penalty, that’s fine. But we will get the whole 15 minutes played on where some justice might come out. You know, I don’t, I am really shocked because I was watching on a stream and it broke down. So I’m less informed about this than you guys are. The, the, the bit that’s really worrying for me, listening to you two is the fact that there was a camera angle that the referee wasn’t shown. Whose decision was that? And why? 

Andy 

Well, obviously, it’s the guys who were the VAR officials, they clearly decided not to show the referee that the behind the goal. 

George 

They’re showing him what they want to support their point of view. Exactly.Not a f*cking point of view. It’s a fact about football. It’s not an opinion. You can’t shift the evidence and go, well, we won’t show you the knife going in. 

Andy 

I’m afraid they did yesterday. 

George 

I’m sorry for swearing, but I’m kind of right with you. I don’t know what we’re watching anymore. 

Andy 

I’m not sure I want to continue watching it if the game if I’m sorry but in my opinion the game is bent after that yesterday it’s just it’s ridiculous this you know last night I was on social media and there are hundreds of people putting pictures of the shirt full you know it’s it’s clear there’s there’s no doubt about it whatsoever but

George 

because obviously I didn’t watch Match of the Day. Did Shearer, Murphy and or Lineker at any point raise the question you’re raising about the officials who made the decision? 

Andy 

Not as I can recall, no, they were just of the unanimous decision that it was the wrong call, that it was a definite penalty. 

George 

But there’s a wrong call and then there’s deliberate filtering of the evidence so that the referee makes the call they want to make. 

Andy 

I don’t recall them saying that, no, they won’t do that. 

George 

No, they never do. Why not? Because they don’t do that. 

Andy 

don’t want to lose the gravy train that their socks on. 

Paul 

Because part of their role, and you know, let’s never forget this, is that all of the broadcasters part of their role, because they pay so much money to broadcast the Premier League, is to promote the Premier League. And their role is no longer to be objective, and nor is it to be critical of anything that the Premier League or the referees or any of the various bodies who are responsible for running our game. 

George 

Sorry, you’ve just said that they were critical of the decision. 

Paul 

Yeah, but they didn’t go any further than that. 

Andy 

No. 

Paul 

You know, it’s like a shoulder and it’s like I said. 

Andy 

They will never get to the stage that we’re at where one of us, or maybe ultimately all of us, are saying the game is bent. You’ll never get that on match of the day, never in the memory of man. 

Paul 

They will have Andy, they will have the guidance notes. Anybody can just pull off the internet that describes the various circumstances in which VAR is used and why it’s used.And one of them is accurate decision making. And that’s to correct major mistakes made by the referee, especially in situations where a visual review can provide more clarity. Well, first of all, there wasn’t a major mistake by the referee. But secondly, there was definitely visual evidence to support his decision. So they failed on that. 

George 

withheld from showing him that. 

Paul 

Yes, yes. So it was available to the people in the VAR room, but wasn’t made available to the referee. They still made the recommendation. This is the critical to critical elements here. If you want to look at it forensically, one, they didn’t show him that evidence and two, they still made the decision, which was to suggest to him or to recommend to him that he change his decision, even though they had the evidence that supported the original decision. And that is the critical point at the end of the day

.They they had the evidence, they didn’t supply the evidence, but they still told the referee that in their view, he should change his decision. And he did so. The referee was weak. The referee doesn’t doesn’t have to take the recommendation of the VAR people. He could turn around quite justifiably and say, I’m sorry, I’m calling this as I saw it originally, there’s nothing that you showed me that conclusively proves even with the two angles that he saw, there’s nothing that conclusively proves that what I did was wrong. Therefore, I’m calling it as a penalty.So you got both the VAR at fault and you got the referee at fault. 

Andy 

Yeah. 

George 

So definitely a point for Michael Oliver, then, for standing his ground whenever that was. But depending on any other mode of life, if this happened as a break in of a, you know, a white goods store and somebody pinching a telly, I mean, at what point do we just go?I’m not quite sure where I’m going with this, except that that’s the worst thing I’ve ever heard about VAR, that the two guys who sat in the truck selectively sorted the evidence to support their point of view. Yeah, that sounds, I’m going to use the word wrong. 

Paul 

to me. And that’s also, George, just to compound it further, that’s also completely at odds with another part of the notes that are provided with regard to the use of the AR. And that is headline fairness in critical moments. And that says to ensure that the important decisions impacting the outcome of a match are made based on accurate information that also minimise and this is the minimising the chance of a team being unfairly disadvantaged by a wrong call.

The wrong call was made by the VAR people, not by the referee. In the first instance, the referee then subsequently made the wrong call by going with the evidence provided by the VAR people. And, you know, this is not just something that Evertonians should be talking about because it happened to Everton. This is something that the whole game of football has to address. 

Andy 

Absolutely. 

Paul 

and it can’t just be brushed under the carpet and considered to be bad luck, because the whole reason for having VAR is to create accurate decisions and to create fairness. And the third point is to reduce controversy.Well, you must be kidding. They failed on all three points. 

George 

they failed quite deliberately. Yeah. 

Paul 

The question is who then takes that decision to bring these people to account and to account for their actions. 

George 

And what’s the answer to that question? 

Paul 

it should be the PGMOL, or whatever the initials are, the body that represents the referees. Or that manages the referees, doesn’t represent the referees. 

George 

But it won’t happen and you know, it won’t happen and This is the same as Liverpool last year. It’s the same thing where you know, just a completely bonkers wrong decision. Nobody does anything to correct it in retrospect

 Don’t play the game again.Don’t give you Liverpool a point. Don’t give us a penalty, don’t you know? We just go, that’s the game, isn’t it? Move on who’s next Liverpool are playing City now. All right, let’s watch that

Paul 

Yeah, the show goes on. And so, you know, I just am. Yeah, if it failed on all three points. 

George 

I’m asking you, does somebody have to bring a legal case for this to get sorted out? How dare they not show the referee, you know, and I don’t blame the referee for not going.Is that all the angles you’ve got? I mean, you’ve got a camera behind the goal as well. You know, there’s a lot going on, you know, I don’t. 

Paul 

Just think about what happens in Rugby Union, George. At the moment, we’ve got like the Six Nations Championship.They actively search for every single piece of evidence. And in fact, you’ll often hear the referees say, have you got any more angles on this before I make a decision? 

George 

Yeah. And the clock is stopped and the public are listening to it. 

Paul 

And in the case of this year’s Six Nations, the crowd can actually hear the conversation. 

Andy 

Right. Yeah, there was one yesterday in the Calcutta Cup match. Yeah. With Scotland thought they’d scored a late try. No, absolutely. No, was it? No, it was the Wales Ireland game. The Wales Island game, where Wales thought they’d scored a late try. And on first viewing, it did look a try. 

But when you see it from all the angles that they considered, and the referee initially, when he called for the review, he said, my on field decision is try. And then they went through it. And you could hear all the discussion. And it’s all nice and calm and polite. And eventually the decision quite rightly was, no, it wasn’t a try.It was a knock on. And nobody, nobody argued because they’d all seen it on the big screen. They’d all heard the discussion, the discussion, and everybody accepted it. Nobody in the memory of man is ever going to accept that that decision yesterday at unison was right. Nobody. 

George 

I don’t have to, because it is right, because it happened. The point now is, this is our turn. It was Liverpool’s last season, it’ll be City’s next week and Brentford’s the week after that, and Aston Villa will have a moan and they’ll all be right. When are we going to do something to change this fast? I can’t believe that they didn’t show the referee. They must have sat there afterwards and gone, yes, come on United. 

The number of times that us three have had that conversation about Ruby Union, I mean, when are they going to show some respect for the fans of football? The cricket fans hear what the umpire is saying and then see it on the screen. Football is, I just do not understand. 

Andy 

Hawkeye in tennis is you know they dont they don’t even have to totally just show it. 

Paul 

And that’s been around for donkey’s years, you know? 

Andy 

Oh, but we get we get you know, football fans are trained to be idiots. Yes, they are. 

George 

You know, but so is the football referee by that, by what you’re saying about yesterday. That is too bad. He gives a decision and two United fans turn it over for F’s sake. Excuse me for swearing. 

Paul 

Yeah, well, we don’t know about the United fans, we know that they live in Manchester. 

George 

I’ll take the court case when they slammed him into having their city fans read it off for goodness sake. 

Andy 

Aww. 

George 

I think VAR is about as useful as Brexit, frankly, to the worst decisions being made in my lifetime. 

Andy 

It’s to be fair to VAR, it’s not VAR, it’s the people who have been entrusted to use it, but they’re not using it to what it’s supposed to be used for, which is, as we’ve said, is there a clear and obvious error? No, there wasn’t.

So the referee’s decision stands, end of, not, hang on a minute, let’s just have a look at this, because we might be able to find a way to overturn this, because that’s what they’re doing. It’s like Beto’s gold. Three minutes before that was awarded. 

Why? Because they were trying to find a way to disallow it. There’s no other explanation. They were trying to find a way to disallow it. That’s why it takes three minutes every time. It doesn’t matter whether it’s everything against United or whoever against whoever, when it takes that long, they’re clearly looking, they’re truly, clearly trying to find a way to disallow the gold. Then

George 

That book that you quoted Paul that you asked me about Andy in the park end is right.

Because if this was anywhere but the Premiership if we were all Andy’s house now we went out and found a game of football in the park you know a game in a league so that there’s a referee and even linesmen they don’t have any of that stuff so you’ve got human error there as well and linesmen and referees can make mistakes but if linesmen and referees can make mistakes what’s the point of adding more people who can deliberately make mistakes it’s just I cannot for the life of me see what we’ve gained from all this and maybe there are cynics in the Premier League who go have you heard all that fuss about that disallowed pen that’s perfect that’s good for footy

Paul 

I’m not sure how it can be good.

 I agree that’s what they’ll be saying, but I’m not sure how it can be. I mean, just a simple observance of the rules will suffice. Look at the look, you know, what is the evidence for what you’re about to do? Okay, have we seen all the evidence?

 Well, actually, no, because there’s another video camera over there that we’re not showing. I mean, it just doesn’t start, it wouldn’t stand up anywhere as an example of justice, whether, whether you never since the body united support a local support of an autonomous body doesn’t matter, it just would not stand up in any cause as evidence of justice. And if we’re going to use this system, then for goodness sake, let’s use it properly, or not bother using it at all.And go back to if there’s human error on the pitch, there’s human error on the pitch.

 And we know we all moan about it in the pub afterwards, but we all just get on with it. Instead of this ridiculous situation whereby, and, you know, we have to forensically examine what happened in order to try and get an understanding of why it happened. It’s crazy. Absolutely crazy. 

Anyway, can we just get back to football a little bit? George, I’m gonna come to you first. Well, okay, in terms of the match, what was your overall view? I appreciate your comments about United. What were your overall views on Everton? 

George 

I’ll be really blunt. I was disappointed that he changed the team that did so well last week. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.Having said that, Decori’s goal was a typical Decori goal. He kept running. Nobody else did. No defenders did, so he scored. And we were well worth the 2-0 leader. It was really, you know, really impressive. I said to, I think I texted Andy halfway, you know, towards the end of the first half to say, these are two not terribly good teams, but one of them is doing their best and the other one doesn’t know whether it’s Christmas or Tuesday. 

Well, like I said, fair play to United. They turned that round in the second half.They did work harder. I don’t know why we let them play. I have no idea why we weren’t at them. Like we were in the first half. We were snapping into everything in the first half. Well, it’s a 90-minute game, and that’s a lesson learned, you know. 

And I just saw Moyse’s press conference where he said, we’ve got a two-all draw with Liverpool, and that felt like a win. This doesn’t.He’s right. But, you know, he takes some responsibility from my point of view. And further to my point of view, I would start Alcaraz and then say again, Andy. 

Andy 

I didn’t say anything. 

George 

No, no, no, I’m just going to pronounce Jim’s name to me. 

Andy Ireogbaum

George 

Yeah, him. I would start both of them, and the reason I would start them is because of tempo. Acaraz wants to play faster, and so does Tim. 

Faster than Doucoure can, and I have to accept that Doucoure  scored and played well for, you know, the first half, but I would have hooked him much, much sooner than the Moyes did in order to get tempo on the field.If we had had tempo in the scored, you’re quite right to say that for 65 minutes before that free kick, they’d done nothing much, but they were in control of the second half. 

I remember the ball going to Beto at one point, and I thought, oh, Beto’s still playing, because we haven’t done anything with him.

 We haven’t given him nothing in the second half. We just sat back and went, oh, this is done now, this is safe, and there must be so many stories in football of that happening. It was infuriating to watch that happen as an Everton supporter, as, you know, as objective as you can be. I thought, fair play to United. They kept at it, and once they got, you know, once he scored that free kick, they really gave it some welly, and, you know, they kind of, you know. But in terms of us and as a football team, I would say he should reverse these roles, start Alcaraz,

Andy 

See you in a bit. 

George 

and save Doucoure for 30 minutes, so just go and give them a load of gypsum, just run at him. Because he can’t do it for 90 minutes anymore, and he should have been hooked sooner. And I think the same applies to Ghana at the moment, who was, you know, fine yesterday. But I think both those players, Alcaraz and Tim, are better football players than both Ghana and Doucoure. 

And I understand Doucoure has got a lot of experience and a lot of goals and all that stuff. But that’s my feeling about the state of the squad at the moment.The back four is really good. 

You do kind of get a bit depressed at 2-0 when you make a substitution. It’s actually young coming on. And, you know, my only other thought about the match was Harry Maguire, really, who I think has probably got a career in comedy ahead of him. If he concentrates on it, he had a couple of moments yesterday that were pure comedy gold. I will cherish for a long time the idea that Jack Harrison flattened him.

 Jack Harrison made a tackle in his life, and neither should he. He’s a very small bloke. I never made too many crunching tackles. But there he was, going in and laying out Harry Maguire on the, oh, it was very, very droll indeed from Harry, who used to be a hard man. But, you know, I can imagine, I was thinking, what would happen if Jack Harrison had done that tackle on him in the street? 

Would Harry have gone, oh, bus conductor, please arrest him? That made me laugh. And like you, Andy, I’m fascinated by Fernandes, who tries me nuts, but he’s ever such a good football player. So quick and so precise in everything he’s trying to do. And most of it is very positive. I like him a lot as a player.

 You know, he’s an absolute pain in the ass to watch because he’s a bitch, bitch, bitch all the time. But anyway, that’s my five minutes on yesterday.It was so nice to have stuffed them. And we were on for five mil. Took our foot off the pedal. That’s a big mistake. 

Andy 

Yeah. 

George 

at any level. And you’re right, United were crap, but they’re not that crap. 

Andy 

Well, I think the difference was, you know, and I think Everton were much the better team yesterday. But in terms of individual talent levels, I think United had the edge on us and that’s that’s money.Well, yeah, that’s basically that’s down to money they they can, they currently can afford to buy better talent in the weekend. What the one one aspect that did fascinate me yesterday was the tussle, particularly first up between O’Brien and I think his name’s Dorgon. 

George 

It was fair now. 

Andy 

I thought that was a good test for O’Brien yesterday, because he was up against someone who had pace and a bit of trickery about him. And a couple of times he looked to have the undoing of O’Brien, but O’Brien stuck to his task and in the end had a very good game against him.Conversely, there was nothing down the other flank from United that bothered Mykolenko whatsoever. 

George 

Sorry, Andy. 

Andy 

Big time. 

George 

I’ll shut up, you two. 

Andy 

Thank you. It kind of surprised me a little bit that the United didn’t have anything down there right to give Michael and George S. I’m glad they didn’t. But it did kind of surprise me.But yeah, basically, you know, I mean, the first half, you know, the effort putting the pressing, the closing down was absolutely top draw. Everything, everything that a Goodison crowd could have wanted to see. 

George 

Yeah. 

Andy 

and the Everton side. Second half, we did take the foot of the pedal. We should have gone a lot harder.We should have gone as hard in the after half time to get the third goal because the third goal would have killed the game. I mean, it’s a cliche that 2-0 is the worst scoreline in football because if the opposition get one back then it switches to momentum. It is a bit of a cliche, but unfortunately it was a cliche that panned out yesterday because once Fernando scored that free kick, and it was a classy free kick, I’ll give you a few on that, then they definitely did have the wind in their sails and Dan actually made a huge difference a huge difference to them. 

George 

But that’s what I was going to say. I mean, I don’t give a rat’s ass, but I don’t know what’s going on at United that he doesn’t start every game.He’s a danger, that boy. But Sod’em, it’s up to them what they do. What was your take on the football Paul? 

Paul 

And who can take a step back and say that we had had this performance, but we wouldn’t perform like this under a date side, but had we been able to perform at this under a date side, we’ve all been pretty pleased. And it’s a measure of how much progress we’ve made in a very short period of time that we’ve come away disappointed from having drawn again against United, that there were elements or play particularly in the first half, I think we tired a bit in the second half.

And unfortunately, when you look at the substitutes, substitutions, and I take the point about when we made our substitutions, but that I think that’s a reflection of what we had available to us on the bench and the way that Moyes was trying to play. When you look at the substitutions available to United and substitutions available to us, I think that was the difference in the game in the second half. 

But in the first half, if you look at the pressing that we did in particular, there were times when we had six, seven, eight players, well inside that half almost count at times on the edge of the penalty box. 

And it was real, it was I know people are going to keep accusing me of having some sort of lovein with Moyes. But it was a real reminder to me of how we used to play under Moyes in the sort of, you know, 2008, nine, 10 era, when we just hassled and hurried and sort of didn’t give anybody the chance to play football on their terms. And that actually thrilled me.

I think, Doucore’s  goal, the build up play for that goal, as a firm point of view of it being a breakaway was fantastic. And I really, really enjoyed that because again, it sort of took me back to, you know, the times when Moyes was here for on first occasion, which I used to really enjoy, not obviously not had a great deal since. 

And so I really enjoyed that. And I think for for Beto’s goal, I think Beto, you know, the ball pinged around all over the place. And there’s good, it was a very good delivery by Jack Harrison, with his left foot and an in-swinging corner. And the ball pinged around everywhere. The one thing that really pleased me watching that was that Beto maintained both concentration, but also a huge amount of discipline, in the sense that he didn’t go chasing after the ball when the ball was bouncing around, he actually maintained his position in the center of, of the goal, probably about five or six yards out. And I thought that I thought that was a really, really good play by him. 

As I say, he didn’t go searching for the ball. He just waited for the opportunity and just hoped that the ball would drop to him. And ultimately, it did. So I think there were, again, real real positives about the play. And yes, disappointing that we ended up drawing a game that we should have won and should have won comfortably.

 But we move on from that, you know, was it four wins, two draws, and one defeat in the last seven games, we continue our record of scoring two goals a game under David Moyes. And we continue to score goals from open play. 

Paul 

And I know, technically, one might argue that Beto’s goal came from a corner. But I would argue against that saying that the ball hit so many players and moved around the box so many times before it actually felt better, that it’s difficult to claim with any credibility, that that was a goal scored direct from the corner because it wasn’t.So I thought I thought there were lots to be positive about and I thought, as I say, repeat myself. It’s great that we feel disappointed. 

Andy 

I completely agree there were a lot of positives about the way Everton played, an enormous amount of positives. I thought James Garner had a really good game, De Corre was excellent for an hour, you know, there wasn’t a great deal to be concerned about until they got that free kick and Fernando scored and, you know, that changed the game and then, you know, we’ve already been through the nonsense at the end but, yeah, it is a sign of how far we’ve come in such a short time that we’re all gutted about dropping two points yesterday or having two points taken away from us. 

Paul 

Yeah, the fact is that. 

Andy 

That’s obviously assuming that we’ve scored the penalty. 

Paul 

Yeah, but the fact is, even with one point, Andy, we are, you know, if the objective of bringing Moising was to provide some stability, and to make sure that we’re not going to get relegated, then I think we’ve already achieved that. 

Andy 

Yeah. 

Paul 

because we’re not going to get relegated. I suppose from his perspective, he now wants to see actually how far up the league we can get because not only does that enhance his reputation financially, it’s very important to the club.It will make recruiting players in the summer, especially in the summer when we move to the brand new stadium, just that little bit more easy because we can demonstrate quite how far we’ve come from halfway through the season when things look desperate. 

Andy 

Yeah, I’m glad we’ve got quite a number of players who will be out of contract. 

Paul 

Yes, yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, that has to happen, doesn’t it? Because we’ve got such a small number of players who remain in contract. 

Andy 

It’s going to be easier to fill holes if we’re looking positive as against trying to fill holes if we’d only just scrape through the season again. 

Paul 

Yeah, I mean, one would hope that we would have a greater or rather the luxury of greater choice, because people, players, agents and other people involved will now be looking at everything in a far more positive light than they would have done even two months ago. And as long as this progress is maintained, you know, for the remaining games of the season, then, you know, we definitely go into the closed season in a much better state than we could even possibly have hoped, I think anyway.So slightly disappointed, but not in any way distraught by what happened yesterday. 

Andy 

No. 

Paul 

you know, from the smooth, you know, we, we’ve had some good luck. And perhaps we lacked a little bit of luck at times yesterday.And that’s it. So I’m dropping into cliche form here and it sounds as if

Andy 

Thank you. 

Paul 

in the press conference. 

George 

I was going to say, I know. Are you going on Wednesday night to Brentford? No, I’m not. 

Paul 

not know, unfortunately. Very difficult to get tickets for that game because of the reduced capacity there. So I won’t be going. In fact, I’m actually going to the England Lionesses game at Wembley. 

George 

All right. Who are they playing? 

Paul 

And I think they’re playing Spain. That’s how much attention I’ve paid to it.If we’re not playing Spain, well, I apologize. I think we are. Anyway, a good friend has invited me so I thought I would, I would take up the opportunity because I knew I was unlikely to guess. 

George 

Sit there on your phone going, Everton have scored! 

Paul 

stream of Everton. So what else can we say about yesterday?

Obviously, we’re ticking down the games now, aren’t we? And you know, that was the fifth last game ever at Goodison. Well, there was for a 12:30 kickoff, I thought there was a very, very good atmosphere from the Everton fans. 

And I think the efforts made by the 1878 group, which are all volunteers in, you know, putting all the fags and all the banners out, again, was very, very good. And there is a feeling, I think now, that we can actually start to celebrate our last remaining games at Goodison. 

George 

Better breathing space, better relaxation. Yeah. 

Paul 

Yeah, yeah. And actually, you know, obviously, lots of memories.And when, you know, when, for example, when you’re playing United, there has to be memories of all of those occasions, when we’ve played them, and both of you in particular will probably have greater memories than most. 

George 

You have not gone for that podcast. 

Paul 

In fact, I mean, I meant to ask you, I meant to mention this to you beforehand. George, what would be your favourite United game at Goodison? 

George 

I wasn’t thinking about goodness and I was thinking about the Cup semi-final in 66 which was at Burnden Park. I was at the covered end not the railway end of Burnden Park and it wasn’t a great shot but it was Colin Harvey on the edge of their box and it went in. 

I just thinking about it now just fills me up that we were going to Wembley and I knew it was gonna win the Cup but we stuffed United. 

It was gorgeous.I don’t have a memory of United Everton at Goodison as rich as that one. That meant a lot to me but I’ve been to every game on that run I’ve been to the replays and bumped off work and got threatened with a sack and get stuff done going and it was Colin who I loved with a passion as a player and as a man. 

Paul 

You hear the passion in your voice George, the emotions. 

George 

your voice. It’s special, very special. What was yours Andy? What was yours Paul? 

Andy 

And I’ve kind of got two, one was the 5-0 when Sheely scored twice. I actually wasn’t out of the game, I was actually travelling that day. I was on my way back to Cornwall and had it on the radio and it was joyous radio here in Everton, destroying my 5-0 ability. Absolutely gutted that.I wasn’t there, but because the previous week we’d gone to Anfield, the sharpest, outrageous volley, and that was going down to Cornwall and the United Game was coming back from Cornwall. 

So there were two tremendous commentaries on the radio while driving. But I guess if there was one moment at Goodison in the United Game, it would have to be that Billy goal against United with Van De Sar in goal and he never moved. Didn’t bunch of muscle when Billetinoff struck that shot, but absolutely screamed into the bottom corner. It was a tremendous goal. And that… 

George 

Jack Rodwell finished that game, didn’t we win 3-1? 3-1, yeah. I was with Yandy, I remember. You were? Yeah. Jack Rodwell, blimey, what a story that is. 

Andy 

Yeah. 

Paul 

Is he still being paid by Sunderland? 

Andy 

Ha ha ha ha! 

George 

Um, I’m not. 

Andy 

I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s fine. You know, those are my two.I mean, the one, if we expanded it to what’s your favorite video moment, and then without a shadow of a doubt, the moment that overrides all the others was the golden vision, dummied Nobby Styles before lashing it into the top corner. That’s an absolute piece of football magic. 

George 

I watched that about three times last week after you said it to me. 

Andy 

heaven is it the drop of the shoulder and oh here we go there there I was nobody picked this out Stepney boom top corner absolutely sensational 

George 

What was yours, Paul? 

Paul 

I think it probably has to be the 5-0. 

George 

Yes, it just sounds so nice saying it. Say again, the five nil. Yeah. 

Paul 

I think it has to be that 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 nil 

Andy 

Thank you. 

Paul 

that was chanted for hours and hours and hours after the game. It was one of those few occasions, because I mean, everything crowds tend not to do this, do they?But actually, as people were leaving, I was in the Gladys Street, and as people were leaving, and I walked down Goodison Road afterwards, people were still chanting it outside the ground. 

Andy 

Mmhmm. 

Paul 

Yeah, special special memories. Definitely. Yeah. We say 

Andy 

That’s all for a few more. 

Paul 

Well, I think there’s going to be some special memories when we, when we get to, to  Bramley-Moore and hopefully the first time we play United at Bramley-Moore, we can stuff them five note and everybody can walk down regions road, singing the same.Yeah. So, uh, only four, only four games now. Is there still five games left? Five, I think. Fine. 

Andy 

I know we’ve still got city to go. 

Paul 

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, in the last two games, we’ve seen something like that, Ipswich and Southampton,

Yeah, so what else has happened? And the discussions over what’s happening around Bramley more, and the transportation issues continue, obviously.

 And it’s, I think it’s caused, it’s rather, sorry, not very, what am I trying to say? The amount of discussion that is created is good. I don’t think going in for the blame game at this particular point in time is particularly helpful.And you know, there are question marks as to what role the club has played in all of this, and whether the club should should have been more demanding during the period when Bramley-Moore was was built. 

And I think Steve Rotherham, to be fair to him was right to make that point. And as we talked about last week, everything were pretty much in let’s just survive one day at a time mode for much of the time, when Bramley-Moore was being built. 

So perhaps it’s unsurprising, although not totally indefensible, or not totally defensible, sorry, that those discussions didn’t take place. And again, I’ll make the comments, but based on the idea that just proportioning blame is not is not enough at this stage. 

There has to be a question mark over what role the local authorities have played in all of this. The city council seems to be winding back now on its decisions with regards to the experimental traffic order that they put in place with regards to Parking. Yeah. And so that may be relaxed somewhat. To what extent I don’t know, I don’t think he’s going to be relaxed so much on match stays so much. 

And although I think possibly there’s going to be a relaxation of the band on parking for vehicles with blue badges, which obviously would would help matters enormously because I think whether they like it or not, most able bodied people can make the journey on foot to Bramley more if necessary in the absence of any there being any any other options. But obviously, there’s a lot of people that can’t. 

And that has to be a big concern.And I know the Everton Disabled Supporters Association is doing a lot of work on that. I think the key to all of this is that people are trying to be constructive. And just saying, well, look, there is a problem, let’s find solutions to these problems. 

The long term solutions are not going to be found overnight. And certainly not going to be found in time for the new season. I suppose the new season, obviously starting in August, some of the problems are less of a problem than they were on a freezing cold night in January, in the sense that any evening games, it’s still going to be light, at least the first part of the season and the weather is going to be slightly better. 

Not for that’s a reason why any of these things shouldn’t be in place, of course. But it just means it’s going to be slightly easier, easier for people. And then we have to look at what, you know, what can be done in the very short term, given the amount of time that we’ve got left in order to get these solutions in place. 

Paul 

And given the likely budgets are available, because the monies for the bigger things aren’t just going to aren’t just going to appear over overnight. And I suppose it comes down to better communication from all involved from the club, from the city council and from the combined authority in terms of what the actual options are. 

So coach travel, bus travel, parking facilities, as in where they are, any taxi facilities that might come up. All of that can be improved without a huge amount of time and effort and resources put into it, certainly in terms of for the start of next season.I think we have to accept that Sandhills, which should have been the solution. or the single largest contributor to the travel issues is not going to be the solution. In fact, it’s going to be a significant problem. So I think we have to look at ways of mitigating that.

 How do we move people away from Sandhills, people that want to use the Mersey rail system such as it is? Can we do park and rides from sandhills or the immediate area around sandhills? Say to Stanley Park, for example, where people could park. 

There’s no reason at all why people couldn’t park their car in Stanley Park and there’d be park and ride back to Stanley Park. Okay, it’s a hassle and it means that the journey takes longer than it should have done had there been proper plans in place. 

But again, what we’re looking for here is short-term solutions to long-term problems with Sandhills in itself with this pen and even with the footbridge that should be in place. I’m not sure it will be in place by the beginning of the season, but it’ll be in place fairly soon thereafter. That’s not the final solution anyway or the complete solution. 

Obviously, a lot of work has to be done there. It just needs sensible people both at local level and at national level to sit down and not say, why are we where we are, but this is where we are. What can we now do in order to make it as good as possible, as quickly as possible? With the mind, of course, that Bramley-Moore ultimately is going to be the thing that creates the regeneration of that area of Liverpool and of North Liverpool generally.

So yeah, it just needs sensible people to sit down and work. I’m not making light of the situation. Not at all. I’m just being entirely pragmatic. Based on several conversations that I’ve had in the last week or so, there’s a number of people, sensible people, who want to go down that route and hopefully we will do so. 

Make the best out of a bad job, really. 

George 

How much land is there within half a mile of Bramley-Moore? 

Andy 

Well, you mean it’s not being used? 

George 

How many more docks are there that could have been exploited like we’ve exploited Bramley More docks? 

Paul 

The only dock that could have been exploited is to the south of Bramley Moore Dock and that’s Nelson Dock. How far south? About 20 metres. 

George 

then this is just me for the first time in my life thinking about this as a problem. If you, how much space do you need to build a very big car park? 

Paul 

There is other land that could be used a couple hundred metres further down that could be used as a car park, if indeed the car park was the solution. The problem is that the location of the stadium, there’s a very limited number of main roads.

 There’s only essentially three main roads and they’re running parallel to each other that allow both pedestrian and car entry and exit. So putting a car park next to the stadium then makes it more difficult for all of those people who are walking on foot because as it stands at the moment, and I now remember the name of the road, Regent Road, which is the dock road, is largely closed to traffic in order to enable pedestrians to walk along it safely.

Actually, that is one thing that could be changed very, very quickly or relatively quickly. And if they just improved all of the lighting along Regent Road, that would make the journey back into the city centre and perhaps a journey towards brutal for those that are walking safer, easier and more amenable. Because I think we mentioned last week or I mentioned last week, you know, it’s extremely dark and… 

George 

You did mention you said it was a bit chilling when you said you wouldn’t be advising your 25-year-old daughter to go up. 

Paul 

Absolutely. So that could be solved with better lighting or partly solved with better lighting, let’s put it that way.And in doing so would support some of the local businesses that have set up along there in the anticipation of having match day traffic. So there are things that can be done. 

George 

I know this is an impossible question to answer because we haven’t done it yet, but we’re aiming to accommodate 52,000 people every other Saturday and a few Wednesdays and when we win the European Cup and all that behaviour. What proportion of those 52,000 people coming to the match is assumed will come by car?

Is there any figures on that at all? 

Paul 

By deduction, you can calculate it. Just off the top of my head, going back to the planning document, the planning document suggested 12,000 people would travel by rail, up to 15,000 people would travel by taxi, bus or coach, which seems an extraordinary figure to me. There were 9,000 parking spaces within a 30 minute walk, although that is reduced to 5,400 on a Saturday. So I think that’s actually probably where you get your figure from.

How many people are in each car? Is it two? Is it three? 

George 

that’s kind of where I was going Paul.You may bring your car to Goodison, we will provide parking for you but you must have three other people in it as well because there isn’t space but how much space would you need to build a car park either up in the air or just flat on the ground for 10,000 cars guaranteeing that you’re not going to let them in unless they’ve got four people in there. 

Paul 

Well, I think I don’t think that’s going to form any part of the plan, because the whole idea of this is to reduce the number of people that are attending football matches by car. And the problem, of course, is that if you don’t provide an alternative other than walking, then you find yourself in a position that we’re in now. 

George 

That’s a policy, is it, to reduce the number of people who come by car? 

Paul 

very much so. And it was stated as such in the planning documentation. 

George 

It’s not the people, it’s the cars and the pollution of them. If you insist that every car is full, then you can’t come if your car’s not full. And you can’t buy dummies like they did on the LA freeway when they made that rule about, you know, you must have people in your car. 

Paul 

of course that’s in there. 

George 

Wouldn’t that reduce the number of cars? 

Paul 

But it would do but there’s still not the capacity for cars in and around the immediate area. That’s the issue.The traffic congestion on Monday, when there was only a crowd of 10,000 was incredible, far worse than the traffic congestion around Goodison or around Anfield, when there’s three, four, five times that number of people attending matches. And the reason is, is because of the geography, the topology of it.

 There’s just not, there just isn’t the road capacity to support large volumes of vehicles. And that’s, that’s been known from day one, that’s been known since 2017 when we first started negotiating with Peel. The problem is not having put the alternatives in place. 

George 

Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. 

Paul 

And it is, it is possible to get large numbers of people to football grounds without cars. And, you know, in London, they achieve that every, every weekend at Arsenal, at Tottenham, at Chelsea, Chelsea is obviously only 40,000.

They achieve this at Wembley, where there’s very little motor traffic to Wembley. A lot of that traffic may be on the outskirts and then people will travel in but that would, that might be the case. Everything is well, but the problem is that we don’t have to travel in bits that would allow people to park in West Derby or parking in Aintree or Bootle, for example. 

George 

But now you’re making it sound like what should have been gone from day one was that there is a metro station at Bramley-Moore. 

Paul 

Well, yeah, they did look at that, but then nobody could come up with a business case to say, we’re going to spend £100 million on creating a new stadium, which is the figure that Steve Rotherham uses when they talk about providing a new stadium, a new station, sorry, near Bramley Mall. 

The problem is the capacity on, even if there was a new station, the capacity on the rail network doesn’t support the new station because it’s okay having a station and everybody going there, but then where do the people go once they’re at the station? 

Andy 

you 

Paul 

if there’s not enough capacity on the train lines, then you just move the problems somewhere else. 

George 

Am I being a bit thick here? I don’t understand. Surely the reason why everybody gets to spurs what Chelsea asks is because there’s a tube system in London. 

Paul 

Yeah, but then the tube system is how many stations and how many lines are connected to the tube station, even to a tube station. And then when you look at the overground system and the National Rail system, all of which are interconnected with the stations closest to those stadiums. 

I mean Tottenham is far from ideal. You queue for a good while when you walk down Seven Sisters Road after a game at Tottenham.

But they do get their people away. Maybe not as quickly as people would want to, but they get them away. That system doesn’t exist and won’t exist at Bramley-Moore for quite a long time. Because the facilities aren’t there and the infrastructure isn’t there. 

George 

Nothing to say, and you’re quite right to point this out. The useless comment, well, it should have been.Because we’ve got to get past the blame game and get on with the fact that what Andy said the other day when we were talking about this is nothing will really react until there’s a human tragedy because of bad planning. 

And we would all like for that not to be the case. So I thoroughly echo what you’re saying about. Now is the time for some very talented and hardworking people to get their arses in gear, man. 

Paul 

No, nobody wants a tragedy of any size. 

George 

No, of course not. I think… Go on, you know what I’m saying. 

Paul 

No, I do. I do know exactly what you’re saying. And, you know, it’s been widely reported in the media that Sandhills is an accident waiting to happen just by virtue of what it is. So it’s not, it is not the solution.

And there has to be an alternative solution to that. And just focusing on Sandhills alone is not going to solve the problem. 

George 

No. That never works, does it? 

Paul 

Um, so, um, I mean, people said, well, why, why are you talking about this? You know, we’ve got to talk about it because, uh, people have got to, people have got to be aware so that they can plan, plan ahead, but also the people who are responsible for creating the solutions have to know that people are talking about it and have to be, uh, pressure has to be applied to them.Not from a blame perspective, but from a, we need to get a solution to this perspective. 

Andy 

Thank you. 

George 

Yep. And boy, it’s been left late, hasn’t it? Yeah. Oh Lord. 

Paul 

Okay, well, should we, should we leave it there? I don’t think there’s anything else around it. 

Andy 

I don’t think so, I’m all fumed out. 

George 

Jolly good form Andy. 

Paul 

Do you feel any less fumed now than you were an hour and a half ago? 

George 

That’s going to be no more. So he’s talked about it for credit. He’s heard it out loud. He knows he’s right.The real issue is that not showing the ref or all the options is criminal. And until somebody takes the Premier League to some court and goes, you either stop this or we’re stopping everything. You know, I don’t know how you do that. 

Paul 

It’s really simple, isn’t it? The solution to it is really simple.

The referee has to ask the VAR people, have you shown me every piece of evidence that’s available to you? 

Because I cannot make a decision until I have seen all of that evidence. That’s what happens in Rugby Union. 

And it’s just very, I mean, they can apply that rule today. And every other subsequent game, VAR, all the referee has to do is say, have you provided me with all the evidence? Yes or no? And the answer is no. 

Andy 

Bye. 

George 

You’re absolutely right and it is absolutely shameful that you’re saying so. 

Paul 

Yeah, if the answers know that the referee says, I’m sorry, I can’t make a decision or my original decision stands because you haven’t provided me with the evidence. 

Andy 

I’m not changing  

Paul 

Or this whole VAR thing has no standing. And let’s get on with the game. please.

That could be instigated tomorrow morning, by 10 o’clock tomorrow morning, the Premier League could make an announcement saying this is what happens in the future. Okay, doesn’t solve the issues that we have going back to Saturday but it solves the issues coming forward. 

Andy 

What are the chances of that announcement being made by 10 o’clock tomorrow morning? 

Paul 

Well, it depends if Dickie Masters gets to hear the podcast before tomorrow morning or not. 

George 

Down to you two 

Andy 

Thank you. 

Paul 

that you know, the point I’m making. Yeah. Yeah. All right, guys. Thank you so much.It’s been good fun. It’s been passionate. Express a lot of opinions. And well, I hope it’s been enjoyable as well. I enjoyed it. Yeah. 

George 

Yeah. On we go. On we go. On to Brentford. Go on, let us carpet makers. The what? Well, doesn’t it make carpets in Brentford? Oh, it’s Nylons. 

Andy 

Oh, my God. 

George 

Oh, dear. One day I’ll learn Tim’s surname. 

Paul 

and I made that. 

George 

It is Brentford Nylon, too. 

Andy 

Yeah, it used to be. 

George 

All right, sorry, Andy, I am living in the 18th century. 

Andy 

Yeah. 

Paul 

Never change, you ought to never change. 

George 

No chance mate, too late, all the wheels have fallen off and everything. 

Paul 

Okay, guys, thanks very much. Let’s speak after whatever they do there. Let’s speak after that. 

Andy 

No worries. 

Paul 

Cheers, guys. Thanks very much. Bye-bye. 

Andy 

Bye. Bye.