BBC Leeds Adam Pope has spent nearly eight years reporting on Angus Kinnear’s reign as CEO at Leeds United. Adam is a life-long Blue and therefore no better guest to ask about Everton incoming CEO.

Automated transcript:

Paul 

Let’s go. Good morning, everybody. Welcome to the Esk podcast. Today, I have a very special guest on. I was just going to call you Angus. There you go. I shouldn’t call you Angus. 

Adam Pope 

I wish there was a quid behind him. 

Paul 

Yeah. Well, rumor has it that you are. It’s Adam. Adam Pope from BBC Leeds. Adam, how are you? 

Adam Pope 

I’m fine, Paul. Thanks. Good to hear you sounded so well, man. 

Paul 

I am thank you and just for the people listening that little joke is obviously Adam and I have been speaking about doing this about Angus Kinnear and on a number of occasions I’ve called Adam, Angus and that’s that’s it that’s just me so there you go. Adam you’ve had the privilege of working with Angus for nearly eight years hasn’t he? He’s been at Leeds. 

Adam Pope 

Yeah, and to be fair, or when you say it like that, it doesn’t seem that long since he arrived. But I remember when he came in, all there was, you had him, but Bielsa coming to a club at that point, which was middling in the championship. And probably, if you’re being honest, not saying that this was the aspiration, but the realistic aspiration was that they might make the playoffs most years. 

That was the sort of place where the club was at.

Having had a string of owners as well, that had left it in a less than satisfactory condition, and that’s understating it somewhat. So Angus coming in with his West Ham and Arsenal credentials and having worked at the FA as well, it suddenly felt like a step up from being honest. And he had to get involved in some heavy stuff with regard to the ground itself. So he was into it straight away. 

And I have to say, I was impressed when I met him. Well, that was the first impression he got. He’s a man who seems to have a big brain and somebody that had a lot of experience that he thought, well, this could only help Leeds because they haven’t had anybody with Premier League experience around them for quite some time. 

Paul 

Yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it? So he joined Leeds in 2017. And he was 39 when he joined because he’s 47 now. And then when you look back on his career before joining Leeds, you realise actually that he helped some quite senior positions at a very young age. He was 27 at Arsenal when he was head of marketing. 

Adam Pope 

Yeah, and as you say, the positions that it had then, then went on to have in particular, you look at what he got involved in is, you know, like the ground moves, particularly with Arsenal and with West Ham of course as well, which all lends itself nicely with Everton. 

I know the ground move per se has been sort of made and signed and delivered, if you like, but there’s lots of stuff around it that would require his expertise, which I know he’s got involved with what he’s been at but yeah, and also when you look back at his career, and as you’ll be aware, he’s a big football fan, he was a massive Luton town fan coming from that area and a football romantic is how he’s described himself to me, but also got involved in some pretty big stuff, I say, with the FA, and this is how he met Andrea Radrizzani, who was the owner at Leeds United at the time.

Andrea’s big business was sports rights and I think as a rapport, Angus helped sort of deliver some of those rights or sell some of those rights in the FA with Andreas, with Andrea, with his company, so I think that’s how they forged a relationship before they actually got together at Leeds United too. 

So yeah, he’s had a pretty learned man and obviously, as you say, some very senior positions which lend itself, I would suggest, to certainly pushing Leeds United forward and also holding a great set at Everton, so yeah, I have to say, in retirement Leeds, well, and this is going back to 2005, sort of full-time and a bit before, in terms of administrator, I’d say that there’s parts of his skill set that are way beyond others that I’ve seen there. 

Paul 

In terms of people that you’ve seen at Leeds or more generally across football? 

Adam Pope 

Oh, well, to be fair, in some of it, in some respects across football, but certainly in terms of Leeds. And I think that this is probably the difference between the the Premier League and the AFL, I would imagine it would have been a quite a big shock to Angus coming into the football league and having to deal with that, as you know, sort of heading up lead United’s interest compared to what it was like dealing with the Premier League for all its fault.

But I think, you know, to a large extent, you look at the football league, and how it was run and some of the crazy stuff that was done. And in particular, you think, you know, with the deals that were done, actually, I think was in the end, sort of, when you look at Sean Harvey, he was at Leeds before, and as now and then went to the main job at the AFL, but having presided over three separate administrations at Scarborough, Bradford and at Leeds and the various owners, of course, and you think he ended up at the top of the football league.

 And then you look at that, and you think some of the say, maybe the commercial deals were done, particularly with the TV rights. And then it doesn’t need a genius to work out that maybe there are better people suited to doing those deals or into those positions. And I think having to deal with an organization like that, compared to the Premier League, which is, yeah, as I said, it’s got its faults, but it’s, in many ways, a lot slicker and a lot more professional, I’d say, or maybe commercially aware, rather, it’s probably more accurate than I’d imagine it was quite a shock for Angus.

 Not that he’s ever admitted that, but, you know, having seen both sides of it myself now, having been seen Leeds in the Premier League and what goes on, and obviously spent a lot of time in the football league with them, then I’d imagine it, yeah, be a bit of a culture shock, to say the least. And he’s, he’s handled it very well, to be honest. I would say in the main. 

Paul 

It’s interesting, because before we spoke, I was trying to do some research on it. And it’s actually, when you look at it, it was quite a bold move, wasn’t it, to go from Arsenal to to Leeds, given Leeds’ condition at the time, as you say, you know, at best a mid table Championship Club.And I think they’d been in the Championship at that stage. It was eight, nine, ten years, perhaps. 

And they didn’t really look like they were going anywhere fast. And obviously, with all of the ownership issues prior to that with Risdalel in particular, he inherited a real mess. 

Adam Pope 

Yeah, so he came in the big they went down in 2004. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, it’s quite interesting because of the finger, particularly by the next owner at the time, which became Ken Bates, he took over in January 2005. And he constantly pointed the finger at Peter Ridsdale. 

But if you remember, Leeds were a PLC board at the time. And I think Peter Ridsdale, although he was very much the front man, I loved, you know, being around the players and all the pictures of him celebrating those sort of relative Champions League success and all that sort of stuff that he was the full guy for a board that included Jim Leighton, Paul, you know, so this was, yeah, and some really senior sort of figures in the world of finance or the world of business.

 And he sort of copped the whole thing. Now look, massive mistakes were made. And the famous line is they lived the dream and it all went really sour. 

But I think it’s hard just to pin it all on one man when those decisions were being carried off.However, you’re right, ultimately, they were left spiraling. And there was the fire sale of players. I mean, before way before he came to Everton, because Aaron Lennon was sold, cut down price to Spurs, Duke, and all these people were soon found out they were bought on the never never as well.

 They weren’t really fully Leeds players. So they didn’t even benefit massively from the actual purchase price which Bates would accept for a cure all these players. So they were left with a squad that was in a bit of a mess. And then having almost did quite well in the first season, the championship, then under Kevin Blackwell, then lost the playoff final in 2006 under Bates’s auspices. 

And they were heavily beaten three nil by Watford at Cardiff. And the next season, they went down and Dennis Weiser coming and what have you and then it just absolutely spiraled out of control almost they went to administration, they have 15 points deduction or heavier. Bates stayed in there, Simon Grayson rescued it brought the club back up into the championship by 2010, including that famous win at Manchester United in, you know, Old Trafford and the FA Cup when they beat the champions as a league one club. 

And things start to improve, but the investment never came pulled to sort of really lift them from what then became, you know, a sort of well established championship club again, that was knocking on the door of the championship, but nobody ever really sorted it out in terms of pushing them right into, you know, the playoffs or, or having a real cracker at the top at the top two in the championship. 

And then an awful type of a bank came in called GfH, who just will literally play football manager with the club. And eventually, Choline Emerson between another Italian came in, whose idea of investment was just to cut cost basically, but made this bit of money moved on and eventually sold to Andrea Radrizzani, who, who funnily enough had been advised. 

Adam Pope 

So he says, by Kenny Dalglish, no less, which club to buy, because he just made a big, just a big deal with some Chinese companies and wanted to spend his money and he did on Leeds United. And eventually they got it right, having had a few sort of, you know, misfiring sort of moments.

But the big one and Angus has got to take his share of this was bringing in Marcelo Bielsa. And it might not have been his idea originally, but he certainly was involved in the negotiations and, and the demands that Marcelo put down on the club to make sure that everything was right, in terms of preparations and Angus was heavily involved in that. So, yeah, by the time we come into the club, and began to help sort it out, it was poorly and was in a mess. And, you know, it’s a positive history. But you wondered whether they were ever going to contend again. And somehow, you know, this regime of the last eight years managed to do it. 

Paul 

It’s interesting as probably should have said at the beginning, I know you and I have spoken on previous podcasts together. You know, you’re a lifelong blue, life, which is, I guess, why, how we got to know each other. So, you know, we’ve had our difficulties, well documented in recent years.But we never quite reached the levels that Leeds United did I suppose either on the upside nor the downside. 

Adam Pope 

Yeah. And believe me, Paul, having seen what happened with Leeds in that period in the mid-2000s where once it starts to go wrong with the numbers that have been involved, which, you know, you catalogued them all as far as I was concerned, I was massively, massively concerned that Everton were going to do that, that once they hit the championship, then it would straight through to League One and we’ve seen it with Wolves and obviously we’ve seen it with Leeds and other clubs as well, but I really, really thought, Paul, and I didn’t see a way out of it for Everton, Paul.

Looking at the numbers that you often have put forward and people were just sticking their heads in the sand and I could see it coming, but I really could and, you know, I mean, obviously there’s a point where you’re worried, would the club survive this and thankfully it’s free, kind of come out and start the rescue mission at this stage, but it was so stark and I could just see history repeating itself at another big club, Paul, and at the moment, thankfully, it looks like, oh, that’s been a Everton. 

Paul 

Yeah, I mean, obviously, we’re talking about Angus, but it has to be said, and I know some people say, perhaps I exaggerated the risks. But we were so close to administration, less than a year ago. And it’s remarkable that we find ourselves in the position that we are now. And obviously, it’s still got an awful long way to go.

And I think I think we’ll get onto that in a few minutes. But just to find ourselves where we are, now relatively secure in the Premier League, not where we want to be, obviously. But, you know, with David Moyes back, and I’ll ask you about David Moyes in a few minutes. But, yeah, I mean, Angus couldn’t possibly have thought that even if he did think a year ago that he might be joining Everton at some point, couldn’t possibly have thought that he’s joining Everton in the condition that we’re now in. 

Adam Pope 

I don’t like to say it’s almost like it didn’t happen because it dragged on for a long time. But yeah, he must be, yeah, I think surely that’s got to be behind some of the decisions as well. 

Well, Paul, isn’t it, that he’s coming to a club that is relatively stable, but poses some massive challenges as well. And I mean, I’ve not spoke to him personally since I’ve had a bit of a message with him just to crack on about Everton a little bit, but all I can see is that he sees that this is a big challenge for him coming forward, because there are a lot of challenges at Everton.But clearly, you know, still, you know, off the pitch as well as on the pitch. 

But thankfully, you know, the latter seemed to be seen slowly, well, not slowly, but quite quickly and more. He’s not to sort themselves out. But so I wonder what he does feel about the challenge. I think, generally, knowing a bit about him, I knew I’d say I was a lot sort of a lot more in touch with him in this early part of his career at Leeds than he has been at his latter stage, because I think the 49ers and himself have sort of took a decision that they were going to sort of keep in the background a little bit and let their actions do the talking and things like his program notes have gone by the wayside, which are always quite intriguing, quite incendiary sometimes as well. All that sort of stuff is gone. So having that sort of personal relationship has sort of gone a little bit, I would say.

But I tell you one thing, I think he’ll look at Everton and think, wow, another huge, you know, football institution, we get it right here, then it’s it’s going to be like getting it right at Leeds, I think, where you’ve got a huge fan base, really passionate fan base.

And you’ve got this club that has fallen on relatively hard times that you can bring back to something like success. I mean, we’ve all seen it this last weekend, haven’t we? What happened to Newcastle? And regardless of that, you think of an ownership model at Newcastle, that was football romance back for me, seeing what it did to those fans. And I’m sure that’s partly, you know, something behind, as well as being well-remunerated, you know, Angus’s thoughts of Everton and making it into a force again. 

So I can see the attraction. But I can also say, well, I think maybe some of his role at Leeds has been diluted with the 49ers sort of gradually increasing their state to full ownership now and bringing more and more of their people in. I do think some of the remit, which included the development of Elland Road, which is meant to be happening over the next few years, I think some of that responsibility might have been sort of taken off and more shared with the chief operating officer that came in a little while ago called Maury Eisenberg. So maybe it was time to move on as well, Paul. I don’t think you can disregard that either. 

Paul 

It’s actually an interesting point because I think, you know, the model going forward, certainly at Everton, is going to be very much that the stadium is built and the stadium is going to open, as we know, in less than five months time. But the stadium development itself is really, it’s only just gone past its first stage.

You know, Colin Chong, who obviously is an infrastructure man, he’s done a fantastic job in keeping the club going as interim CEO, but he’s going to return back to his former role of managing the stadium and managing the development around the stadium. 

And I suspect that then clears Angus, who, for my reading, at least, you know, has a very strong commercial record to do all of the commercial stuff that the club has been crying out for for years and years and years. 

Adam Pope 

Yeah. On that side of things, if you look at the revenue streams it created, I mean, it blows my mind when you look at how Everton and Manchester have survived so far with the, let’s just look at the relatively small corporate boxes that they’ve got, or a small amount of corporate boxes they’ve got at Goodison.

 I mean, there’s no way that you can sustain a challenge. I mean, at some point, there would be no way you could sustain a challenge of being a lower Premier League, never mind a middle in Premier League, but want to challenge that stadium and the revenues that it can generate.

And the thing that he always points to is Spurs. Paul, he said to me a little while ago, he said, match day at Spurs, their revenue on a match day is £5 million. And he said, Leeds a £1 million. And he said, that’s just can’t, how are you ever going to catch up when that’s the sort of starting place just on a match day, never mind anything else. So commercially, yeah, he’s got, he’s absolutely got it as to what needs to be done. 

And I think when I look at how Leeds who have got, you know, even with their restrictions at the moment, they perform superbly well compared to other, you know, Championship clubs and other Football League clubs in terms of their revenue. 

Their cost base, massively, by the way, at the table, which has worked with now, which wouldn’t all be that dangerous at all, because I think he’s very good with the figures. During the sort of later period of the Andrea Radrizzani era, where Bielsa would come in, they made a lot of changes to a training ground, which they don’t own. 

And the wage bill went up a lot, which I thought was quite interesting, because Angus, when I first met him, well, he said that there was a correlation, particularly in the Premier League, between where you finish and the wage bill, he said it was pretty much a direct correlation, biggest wage bill you tend to finish top. 

He didn’t feel it was the same way in the Championship, but by the time he had sort of been there three or four years, then that had clearly changed, and Leeds had one of the biggest, if not, well, the excuse of having the biggest wage bill in the Championship now. So, yeah, it’s interesting to see that how maybe his view has changed on that, as the years went by in the Championship, as the pressure to go out grew and grew.

But no, that’s not to say that he’s a wild man of finance when it comes to chucking money away. I think the opposite, I think he’s in the main, very astute, although there will be people, Paul, who will point to certain things and certain transfers, particularly the Jean-Kevin Augustin situation at Leeds, which is going to cost them or has cost them the best part of 50 million pounds, the worst transfer in history, and he will have to take responsibility for that. 

Adam Pope 

A player that arrived pretty much injured. They tried to offload him, tried to suggest they didn’t have to buy him because the Covid system went beyond the one it did. They got promoted, they were obliged to buy him, and in the end the courts and the court arbitration found that they were obliged to do that, and they had to pay for him and the loss of wages over a five-year deal as well. 

So that will be something that will be hung around his neck a little bit for his detractors, but there’s a lot of people signing those sorts of things off.My impression of him, well, this was a rare thing, that was a costly thing, I do find that PSR wise and the way that the club has been run commercially, which I won’t all be down to him, I do think they are in a better place than when he arrived, and which obviously bodes well for Everton. 

Paul 

Yeah, I hold a view that if you look across business, if you look across business leaders, there’s virtually nobody who can go through their career or can get to a certain point in their career without having made some mistakes along the way.

 And at the end of the day, it’s all about balance and it’s about all the other mistakes that you make smaller or greater than the successes that you have. 

And that’s how you have to balance it.You can’t go into a risk business and football at the end of the day. He’s in a risk business, isn’t he? You invest in players in order to try and, if you’re in a championship, in order to get out of the championship, if you’re in the Premier League, it’s first of all to make sure that you’re not going to get relegated and see how high up the league you can get. 

Maybe you can get to the promised land of Europe in football. You can’t do that without there being risk involved in the decisions that you make. And it’s not just the director of football. It’s not just David Moyes. It’s not just the CEO. It’s obviously a collective. 

And I think sometimes fans unfairly would look at an item, a single item like that, where play is obviously a very bad decision. But that’s what happens in business. That’s why there’s success, and that’s why there’s failure, and that’s why people do it. Because if the successes are greater than the failures, then actually you become a success. And I wonder whether, I suspect, and I don’t know Angus at all, although, including yourself, I know a couple of people do. I wonder if, as a very shrewd operator, he’s looking at this situation at Everton now and saying, OK, been through a really difficult period. They’ve got the stadium built. They’ve got new ownership coming in. 

The new ownership have got a very clear idea. Actually, a bit like the 49ers. Don’t communicate a great deal. If you feel as a private business, it’s their business, then they run the business without there being unnecessary communication. And I know that’s something I’ve always campaigned against, but I can understand the reasons why. Frankly, if the club’s being run properly, then there isn’t necessarily the same need for communications as there is when the club’s being run badly. I’m thinking here that Angus is, as a shrewd operator, somebody in his late 40s, he’s probably got maybe two major appointments in his career that would take him into his 60s.

 He may well go on way beyond that. He’s now looking at this stage, having achieved what he’s achieved or needs to stabilize the club, put the club in a position where they can now make improvements in the ground that they now own and they didn’t tell him previously. Everything represents the next best opportunity for him to do things that he wants to do, which obviously includes advancing his own career. 

Adam Pope 

Yeah. And I do think he’s not overtly ambitious when you meet him. You don’t get this sense that he’s not a big showman or anything like that. But do you know what, Paul, it’s made me think that he’s the sort of guy you could see end up running like a Premier League or a major body. 

He’s got a very astute brain and he sees the bigger picture and he’s got a passion about him who’s well in quiet man. He’s fiercely driven.And he’s ambitious. And you could say if Leeds got into the Premier League and then they start from the bottom up and then they invest with the 49ers and there’s the development of the stadium. He’s got all that to see him watch and grow. But to explain he’s been there with Leeds now. He’s done the Premier League. It ended badly. But with being established in the Premier League, obviously the top player for longer than anybody else, wouldn’t we, when you put all the years together. But now it looks like we’re safe in the Premier League. It’s a better starting place for him.You’d like to think there isn’t the risk factor for him, that there would be taking a club up, which obviously you’re in peril for the next couple of years until you can establish yourself like a villa or a forest, I suppose. 

So I can see that. But yeah, I mean, there’s lots of reasons why he would go to Everton. I mean, it’s both from my point of view, covering Leeds tonight, what is down the road? What is making him finally go out the door? 

And I think eight years is a long time, Paul, like you said. But also, I think he’s been the one constant.Everything else has changed in that time. Owners have changed, if you like, or owners have increased their share where the people have come and gone. And so it becomes easy to be labeled, doesn’t it, as the man that didn’t do this as much as it should be labeled as the man that did do this. 

And I think you’re right. When you look at the round, if you can say you’ve left something in a better place when you arrive, then you’ve been a success. And for all the minuses that have been, and by no means have they been all at his door, you know, it has been a success at Leedsville, regardless of if they make the Premier League this year, which they should do, although it’s a bit tighter than most people would have thought with the amount of wins that they’ve had this season.

And also, I think nobody quite knows when the button is pushed on deals that go wrong or deals that go right or decisions that are made. Success has many fathers, doesn’t it, Paul? He doesn’t overtly take praise for stuff that might not be his.

 I quite like the way he quietly gets on with stuff. However, he has become a little bit of a lightning rod at times because I think he’s been the only one there, the only one being able to answer or not answer because sport directors who’ve been very responsible for some of the poor signers have moved on, Victor Orlon in particular, not all been bad. 

Adam Pope 

But also, I think there’s an element of that. He showed, although I know he was heavily involved in the BL system, and that wasn’t an easy regime to work under, I don’t think. For those that work closely with Marcelo, great guys who are brilliant. I think he was a real taskmaster. And I think, you know, Angus has handled that pretty well.

But also, there are things that happen to handle tricky bosses, right? There’s Arne coming out. I don’t even remember the famous badge gate issue. He designed or got somebody to design. I’m not quite sure who a badge that apparently 10,000 Leeds fans gave their approval to. I’ve never met one of them, Paul, to be honest. 

And this is just not happening. And that day, he actually came into our studio, although he was meant to be coming in on a different matter than the story broke. And he still came in and fronted up and took the sort of pelters on social media coming in from fans and what have you. 

So he’s got a backbone ball as well, which is good. And whilst he is able to stand up to owners or decisions that you might not agree with, and sometimes he’s had to defend the indefensible as well, my trips to Myanmar, I do find he’s very good at handling difficult ownership models. And hopefully Friedkin won’t be that difficult for him in that sense. But, you know, he has got those personable skills, those personal people skills to be able to do that and get the job done as well. 

And that will include working with the councils and local bodies pool as well, which I imagine will be a very, very important part of his role, or some part of his role going forward, probably more. 

Paul 

Yes, I think very much so. And we’ve got possibly not time to read it, but other people listening to this podcast will have done.I talked in recent weeks about the role of local councils and the need for infrastructure development around Bramley-Moore, and the fact that we haven’t really yet achieved what we need to achieve to make Bramley-Moore, and whatever it comes beyond Bramley-Moore a complete success. 

So it’s very, it’s very, obviously, with regards to the owners, I think the owners are going to have much more sensible input than the previous owner did. 

And I do accept Steve Rotherham, who’s Metro Mayor of Liverpool, I do accept to some extent, his comments that it was difficult to plan for things with Everton because under Moshiri, you never quite frankly, you never really quite knew what you were getting anyway. 

And whether we could actually deliver on the stadium, okay, turns out that we did, but we did it by the skin of our teeth. Now, that’s not to give Steve Rotherham or indeed, the combined authority a free pass on this, I think they’ve been quite lax and quite irresponsible in terms of putting forward investment plans, putting forward infrastructure plans, the travel situation on the ground, I think is going to be a major issue in the early days of moving into the ground. 

So we actually need somebody who not only has sort of like the commercial skills, the ability to sell the club to sponsors and stuff like this, we actually need somebody with a bit of backbone, who is quite prepared to go into meetings and say, well, this business has invested £800 million in building a new stadium, you haven’t done what you should have done as the local authority, you’ve got a custodian responsibility to us as a major investor in the area, but also to all of the people who live in North Liverpool.

And it needs somebody with the gravitas and the ability to go into these types of meetings and say, this is what we need. And Everton have not had that for many, many years, as you all know, well, no, not helped, of course, by the ownership thing, but also not helped by the selection of senior executives within the club for many, many years. I’m probably going back to pre-Kenwright days, not even just the Moshiri days.

 So to have somebody in that position, and, you know, often football club success is focused on what the manager has done in more modern times, what the director of football has done and everything else. But actually, equally, I think equally from a business perspective, you need a strong executive team in order to achieve, what’s needed to be achieved off the pitch. 

So if you look at the success of Liverpool currently, you know, a lot of that is driven by the commercial abilities, whether you like what they’ve done to Anfield or not. And, you know, there’s not a lot of Reds who no longer think Anfield is the place that it used to be. And I get that, you know, with the large numbers of visitors, supporters, day trippers, etc. And there is a balance, obviously, between that and everything else. 

Paul 

But nevertheless, what they’ve done is they have, and I just use Liverpool as one example, there are others, obviously, what they’ve done is they’ve used the revenues that that generates to try and achieve success on the pitch.

 And if you go back a little bit, obviously not under the current ownership, but if you go back Manchester United, for example, equally so by far under way the most successful club commercially, but also happens to have a genius in terms of some running the football side of operations.And you need that, you know, it’s always the case at Arsenal, one of activists previous clubs, to a degree, it’s been the case commercially with Tottenham, although they’ve never achieved what they should have achieved on the pitch. 

So it has to be that they’ve had as you know, for many, many years. And we’ve missed that sort of executive heavyweight, that person that can actually represent the club’s commercial interests and strategic interests. And if Angus is the type of person that can do that, and the evidence suggests that he is speaking to you and others who know him, that might be the case, then that has to be very good for the football club. 

Adam Pope 

Yeah, and I think, you know, look, never, never got to know him like deeply personally, but that’s certainly nothing to actions over the years to, to realize that yeah, you know, he has, he does carry some, some weight, definitely. Well, you know, there’s, you know, his experience, we’ll, we’ll show you that. And, and yeah, you know, some people in this game, they’re there, and they’re around, and they survive. I don’t, I do find it.

 He’s not like that. He’s there to make changes and, and, and influencing the right way and move things forward. And at the same time, I always go back to this as well. I do feel there’s a real football heart there for him as well. So, which I find quite endearing and, and because you don’t really see it, the amount of people, the chief execs and owners I’ve dealt with over the years, you just think you’re in this for something entirely differently. 

I think with Angus, you know, I think there is that, I don’t want to call it a softer side, really, but you know, something that’s, you think, yes, at the root of it all, like I said, I go back to Newcastle winning on, you know, on Sunday against Liverpool, but that’s why you’re in football, isn’t it, to see those moments, regardless of all the politics and everything else that goes around it, that joy and that, and seeing your club achieve something.And I think I certainly find that a driver for him. 

And I think, but more importantly, you would say he’s got that acumen and the experience and commercial know-how to move a big club forward and having to know a huge entity as well. The other thing as well, Paul, is that he’s anti-regulation. And I think, you’ve mentioned this to me before, I think that’s something that would probably kind of endear into the Premier League more than our previous, previous board. But he, you know, he referred to it, didn’t he, as Maoist sort of agriculturalism in one of his program notes. So he’s very much anti-regulation, he was very much anti the ESL and the move by, in fact, Everton played, Leeds United played Liverpool, didn’t they, when that all kicked off during the COVID time. 

He was very, very anti that as well. So there’s quite a few stances in his view on the game and how it should be run. I think probably endears himself to Everton and their plight or their condition, if you like, even more. 

Paul 

Yeah, I mean, I think that’s an important consideration as well. I mean, clearly I’ve not had good relationships with the Premier League for many, many years, obviously driven in recent years by, you know, basically ignoring the financial rules and operating in a mostly irresponsible manner.But, you know, that period is now gone. But I still get the feeling that there’s a number of bridges that need to be built there. And, you know, Angus is saying the right things. And he wasn’t, I mean, he wasn’t at all scared to represent what he felt as his lead’s interests. In fact, you know, Leeds were one of the clubs that were most adamant that Everson had done wrong and perhaps should have faced further punishment as against just the punishment that they received. 

Adam Pope 

Yes. And it’d be very interesting to see if it turns around how much he’ll defend Everton’s position, which I’m sure he will. What you look for in those situations, and people don’t forget, is the consistency in how he approaches it. I have to say in the main, I found him a pretty consistent guy when it comes to his dealings. I think, obviously, opinions can change or methods can change slightly and what have you, but I do feel that it doesn’t just bend with the wind. 

Look, he has to do what’s expedient, I’m sure, at times. And there’s a lot, I’m sure I won’t know what’s going on at Leeds in his time, and some that do that I have to keep to myself. But I do feel in the main, he’s got a solid outlook and it’s, and I like that really, it tends to be, you know, if he does feel like the club’s been a front and he represents his best interests, but it has to be within a sort of, if you like, a moral framework of where you think football should be or how it should be conducted. 

Or how your business should be conducted. And I’d like to think that it’d take that consistency to Bramley-Moore as well with him.But, you know, and I think for some people, Paul, that outspokenness has gone down really well. 

And obviously, when the club is doing pretty well, you know, when they’re finishing ninth in the Premier League in the first season, and everybody’s riding high, then people like that. And it’s an endearing feature, isn’t it? When things start going wrong, people don’t want to hear from it, or and suddenly the program notes don’t become quite as engaging and they become a tool to be a chief executive. 

So, you know, it’s an invidious position to be in, isn’t it? But all I’m looking for is yeah, strength, acumen, and some consistency. And yes, looking out for the best interests of the club that’s employing you. And there’s no reason for me to believe that he would do anything other than that once he completes his move to Everton. I’m just surprised, Paul, that it hasn’t happened sooner, to be honest, and that this period of working at Leeds has been allowed to continue, really, I suppose. I thought it’d just get on and get over. 

But, you know, there’s work to be finished at Leeds, and I’m sure you’d want to go out on a high with them back in the Premier League, maybe. 

Paul 

Yeah, I’m sure. I mean, it is.I appreciate what I’m conscious of time. It is interesting, because I mean, that the rumors about him joining Everton have been around for quite some time, haven’t they? 

And I just wonder sometimes whether or not this represents some of his shrewdness, in that he didn’t commit himself until, first of all, the Friedkin takeover happened. And obviously, he wouldn’t have got the position, or even been offered the position had it not happened. 

But also then, you know, coming into the new year when David Moyes arrived, perhaps that was the point at which he looked at it and said, actually, they got the stadium, the club is just now financially in a much better position. It’s a platform from which I can build. It looks like the club’s stable from a footballing perspective. Actually, now is the right time to say yes. 

Adam Pope 

That’s a really good point that Paul, isn’t it? Timing, it is everything, and yeah. I mean, look, I imagine there was a short list drawn up and as I understand it, you know, I think obviously if we can link with Roma and the CEO that’s gone in at Nottingham Forest, I would imagine would have been, you know, quite high on their list as well. 

But Angus, I thought it had gone away, Paul. I really did, you know, like she said, the talk had been around there for a little while, either side of Christmas, hadn’t it before it really manifested itself properly. 

But I just wondered if it had gone away, but yeah, timing is everything.And I think once the completion had gone through, and I suppose just stressing out what the role will be, you know, because who knows what’s going, I mean, obviously, as you said, you’re very impressed with Chong, Everton, and he is the one that has survived. And quite likely so from, you know, having read about your stuff, Paul, and then listen to the podcast and just sort of delved into his background and good that, you know, there’s a solid person there that maybe Angus feels locked. 

Yeah, yeah, the building blocks are in place now, but a lot of it will be, I’m sure, who he reports to as well, and how much rain he’s got. 

You know, he’s had, I would say at Leeds, Paul, he had literally at one point, it would be the owner, Andrea Ratizani, who was absent a lot, you know, around the world elsewhere with his other businesses, 11 sports and what have you. Angus, sort of the chief executive, the sports and director, and, you know, the head coach. And so his reign was pretty much, you know, all encompassing, I would say, at Leeds, on both the football side and on the business side.

 Probably too big, really. So maybe, I don’t know how much scope there is for, or what exactly it will be, I’m glad we all have to wait and see. But also, I do wonder this as well over Paul. I mean, Friedkin has come in, there’s a good track record, there’s a lot of things to admire. 

At Leeds, Red Bull are heavily involved now. We don’t know how much exactly, but their investment will grow if Leeds get promoted, as we understand. Now, the 49ers haven’t said what that investment is. And bearing in mind, they’re looking at a deal as an investment company at Rangers as well in Scotland. 

You know, and this is just me coming up with, you know, a theory, I don’t know this for sure, but, you know, how much down the line does Angus not like what he sees will happen at Leeds? I mean, the Red Bull influence is a real worry for a lot of Leeds fans when they’ve seen what’s happened elsewhere in Europe with Red Bull. 

And this is their first foray into English football. So you do wonder if, you know, time-wise as well, it maybe thinks, look, you know what, I’m happy to do this now and go on to, you know, a bigger challenge at Everton, or a very different challenge, if you like,

Adam Pope 

and leave this behind. Because, you know, I felt my role has been diluted and, you know, I need a new challenge, but I’m not quite sure where Leeds are gonna go, you know, on the other side of it.I don’t know how much is in that as well, but these are sort of the unknowns that are coming with it with an ownership model that’s changed over Leeds over the last sort of, you know, certainly the last three or four years, or certainly the last two since the 49ers have been involved completely when they totally bought it out. 

But they’ve needed Red Bull to come in as well. And it goes back to that thing, you know, how do you want your club to be owned? How do you want it to be run? Well, people complained about Gulf States and stuff like that, but, you know, you’re not gonna have your local businessmen running your football club anymore, are you? 

Or are you John Moores? It’s just beyond, it’s just beyond that now, isn’t it? And sometimes it takes a, you know, a soft drinks, you know, a huge soft drinks company to come in and you just gotta be aware of what that might mean and who knows whether that’s in Angus that’s thinking down the line or not. I can’t tell, but I’d say that’s another factor as well to throw into the mix. 

Paul 

That’s an interesting point because I mean, Red Bull clearly have a very almost like a standardized operating manual, don’t they, in the sense that if you’re a Red Bull club, this is the way that you run. 

And they are very proactive owners and they essentially control what their executives do and almost provide a rule book for them or a plan for them.And maybe, I mean, obviously we’re just speculating here, and this perhaps didn’t feel I was the right way for him to go. I’d prefer to think that he’s looking at everything and saying, well, for the first time in many, many years, there’s a degree of instability amongst some of the top clubs. So there is an opportunity to break into the established sort of top six, say, for example. 

And perhaps just Everton now, now the timing is right for Everton to make that push. And obviously, you know, we can’t get carried away. We’ve got a huge gap to fill from where we are to where we could be if we were to be one of those breakthrough clubs going forwards. 

Maybe it’s just the lesser spotted optimist in me, because I’m not usually accused of being an optimist. That just thinks, well, stable ownership, new grounds, stable finances, a manager who knows, loves the club, loves the fanbase, committed. Also, you know, a lot of rebuilding there in terms of the squad going forwards.

 And I think that has to be a big factor in somebody coming into the club, that he just sees a relatively clean season. 

Adam Pope 

ahead of him. Yeah, I think you’ve summed it up well there, Paul, and I think, yeah, and this is a guy I forget, you know, you’re talking about the squad rebuilding as well.

He has no fear about dealing with players with big egos or anything like that, you know, if he has to get involved and that’s not the thing when it comes to, you know, contracts and negotiations and all that sort of stuff. He’s dealt with some of the biggest, you know, players, you know, particularly when it was at Arsenal when they were going through a fracking time as well. 

So, yeah, he’s got the co-owners, if you like, to deal with that. But I think you’re right when you look at the opportunity that, and even six months ago, Paul, you just think Everton wouldn’t be anywhere near this, where you’re actually thinking, you know, even this season at one point when, you know, I mean, it’s on the roll anyway, but you’re thinking, wow, is there any chance they could sneak into, you know, not just the top half that start threatening the conference league places?

 It’s just crazy how that could be. 

You just couldn’t imagine it so, but Angus’s point of view, yeah, he has to think, yeah, okay, he’s probably got a good look at free cash and he’d bend it and thought, you know what, this has happened, it’s gone through, as they said, everything’s stable, yeah. 

And this is the one that could start breaking the, yeah, maybe everyone could break the paradigm a little bit as we start to see with some of the, you know, the other clubs, Forest and Villu took their gamble when they came up because they’d come straight back down. I think there’d been all sorts of problems. 

Paul 

It goes back to what we were saying before about risk, doesn’t it? They took the risk and at this moment in time it looks like it’s paying off. I think everything represents less risk because obviously we didn’t drop out of the Premier League. 

But I think also we offer better opportunities as well and that’s perhaps the trade that Angus is making.

Should we leave it there? If you’re happy to, right? 

What would be really fascinating is if maybe, where are we now? We’re in March. Somewhere during the summer we come back and we see how things are going, both off the pitch, but also by that time he would have started dabbling in the transfer market as well, one hopes. So it’d be fascinating if in six months time we could replay this conversation and say, well, actually, this is where we are now and this is what Angus has imposed. 

Adam Pope 

Sure, absolutely. I’d love to, Paul, yeah? 

Paul 

Yeah, well, thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate it.

And thank you for your, for your insight. I mean, you know, Angus, as well as anybody, I suppose, in terms of having dealt with him and dealt with Leeds. And it must be a great position, actually, as a local reporter, having a one club City. 

Adam Pope 

It’s yeah, it is a unique club and I have to say I can I can draw a lot of parallels between, you know, not not the one club obviously city thing but the way Everton fans are on Leeds fans I think there’s quite a few parallels and I’m a whole sort of, you know, like the world’s against this sort of thing, you know, there’s definitely an element of that in both clubs, I would say. So covering them is unique.

I mean, it’s an extraordinary history and it’s never been short of a story and but often though, Paul, it’s been for the, you know, the bad stuff really, you know, through the baits here and some of the stuff that I’ve mentioned before, but, you know, I’d say with Angus, there’s been a lot of, well, while he’s been on the ground at Leeds, there’s been a lot of good stuff, you know, and not just on the pitch, there’s been some really good moves made off the pitch as well and rebuilding trust and communities and businesses and what have you and a lot that was down to my salary, but he has to take his credit for that as well.

 So leaving somewhere in a better place, like I said, is all he can really ask for and he will do that when he finally goes from Elland Road. 

Paul 

Well, that’s great to hear. Thank you so much for your time.

I’ve done it again. Adam, thank you so much for your time. Oh, dear me. And yeah, let’s speak again in the summer. No doubt you and I will speak privately in the meantime anyway, but appreciate your time. And I hope people have enjoyed and learned quite a bit through your comments. So thank you. 

Adam Pope 

Cheers Paul, keep up the good work mate. 

Paul 

Thank you, take care. Bye-bye. 

Adam Pope 

Thank you.