Paul: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, depending upon where in the world you are, and what time of the day you’re listening to this additional extra episode of Talking the Blues, and driven by the events of last evening, which was Monday the 17th of February, the day in which Everton’s £800 million stadium, which Andy will remind us cost £800 million, officially open to the public, albeit in a heavily restricted test event. Andy and George, how are you both?
Andy & George: I’m good.
Paul: Good. I suspect that you are both a good deal warmer than everybody was last night, and a number of people I spoke to this morning who were so cold.Obviously, that’s nothing to do with the club or anything else.
But it was bitterly cold last night, and the wind coming off the Mersey from the northeast was cold. I don’t recall many of the brochures when they put brochures out at the start of the process. With the northeast wind blowing 20 miles an hour, but there we go.
George: Middlesbrough Stadium is the coldest one I’ve ever been to. That was a horrible day and we only had one chance in the car because we needed it. Oh God, it was bad.
Paul: At the Riverside, yeah.
George: Who was that underage team playing last night, Paul?
Andy: Wigan U-18s.
Paul: We played Wigan and it was, apparently it was in the under 18 league, which I didn’t even know existed.
But apparently, no, we lost 2-1. And to be honest, I think very few people were taking any notice of the football at all. Everybody was just chatting amongst themselves.
And to be fair the Wigan team were physically a much bigger team than the Everton team. They looked like a much more mature team. And they played some quite decent football at times. Everon came on quite strong towards the end of the game, when there were just numerous substitutions. But frankly, it wasn’t really about the game. As such, it was just about opening up the stadium and getting 10,000 people and then trying to see if you get 10,000 people home.
Andy: So tell us about your evening, Paul, from start to finish, because didn’t you say that you’d stayed near Lime Street? So in effect, you went from Lime Street to Bramley-Moore and then back to Lime Street.
Paul: Yeah, I stayed in the hotel next door to the Lime Street station then and the Radisson, which, you know, it’s just a bog standard hotel. And I thought, if I did that, then that would be the closest experience to what perhaps a visitor or somebody who’s coming into Liverpool would experience.
So I walked, I walked from St. George’s plateau on Lime Street, down to Bramley-Moore. And because it was early evening, late afternoon, early evening, because I wanted to get there early, I wanted to meet people, but just to sort of experience it. And it was still light. Even though it was cold, it was actually quite a pleasant walk.
Although, I would say that if you didn’t know Liverpool, if you didn’t know your way around, and although I haven’t lived in Liverpool for many years, I still sort of got a general feeling for what direction we need to go in. And there was no signposting or anything of that nature. So if you just come out of Lime Street, and you intended to walk to Bramley-Moore, it’d be quite difficult to do so.
Yeah, obviously, everybody has apps these days. But I say everybody, not everybody has apps, but most people have, you know, apps and stuff like that would direct them there. But there is no, there was no, no, no signage. But I mean, that’s a relatively minor thing. And that could be easily fixed.
And perhaps there should be designated routes for people from different, different parts of the city, if indeed, walking is a big part of the transportation plan going forward.
I’m going to start with all of the positive stuff. And the negative, if it’s perceived as negative, is not meant to be negative. It’s just a sense of realism about the real issues that face the fans that are going to go there on a regular basis.
And as a result, will ultimately affect the club, possibly effective viability of the stadium. And, you know, to a degree, I think it will hinder the economic development around the stadium. Well, I’ll get into that a little bit later.
The positives were that the stewarding outside the stadium was fantastic, was absolutely everything that you’d want from a stewarding operation, friendly, cooperative, helpful, and authoritative when they needed to be really good.
Similarly, at the turnstiles, you know, it’s all obviously phone based now. So you have a barcode on your phone, and it sits in your Apple wallet or your Android, Google wallet. And again, very helpful people at the gates.
So that was excellent.And that’s the inside stadium as well. Because obviously, nobody knew where they were going once they got inside the stadium. Everton had put on a huge number of people. And those people were well trained. And they were very well briefed in terms of, you know, what block are you in, right, you need to go down to the far end that way. Or it’s a second one on the right, you know, those types of directions, which you sort of need.
Andy: It’s sign posted adequately as well?
Paul: It is. Inside, yeah. I mean, you know, it’s chalk and cheese compared to any stadium I’ve been to in the UK. Okay. It’s better than any other stadium I’ve been to in the UK in terms of when you go through the turnstile and you get into the main concourse area, which although people weren’t allowed to do so, because it was just the south stand last night that was open, you can walk around effectively around the whole stadium.
And it’s been done really, really well. And it’s very clear the sign posting is excellent. So no complaints about that at all.And the actual stadium itself, when you get through anything, it’s a very simple housing in the lower part of the south stand. It’s a very simple process, just walk through and up the steps and it takes your breath away.
And I know there’s been lots of videos and there’s been lots of drone footage and stuff like that. You know, in the years that the stadium is being built, but actually nothing quite prepares you for the moment when you first walk up through the steps, or up the steps and all that, and get the first sight of the pitch and first sight of the, well, I think the architects call it a bowl of the stadium itself. You know, I’ve seen a number of stadiums over the years.
And obviously the Tottenham one is probably the most recent in terms of new builds. And the Tottenham one is a little bit bigger. And you know, we’ve discussed that in the past, but brand new more is head and shoulder from a spectator’s perspective, from a viewing perspective, from the idea that you’re actually in a football ground watching a football match as against perhaps being in a North American stadium. It’s head and shoulders above the Tottenham experience.
And I can’t wait to hear the noise when it’s full, and it’s a competitive match.Because all of the things that Dan Meis and I have had our differences over the years, but actually I spoke to him last night to congratulate him. Everything that he said he would deliver in terms of proximity to the pitch, steepness of the stands, we’ll talk about that a little bit more later on.
And difficult to judge on the atmosphere because there’s only one stand-over, but it felt as if there’s going to be a phenomenal atmosphere there. And you know, he did say that there’s not a bad seat in the building. Pretty much guaranteed that there’s not a bad season in the building. It is fantastic.
And you know, Dan Meis, and I have to say, and we don’t often say this, do we? The club, Colin Chong, was effectively the project manager for the stadium, these people have delivered and they need to be congratulated for that in terms of the stadium, and they’ve done it.
And it’s going to be, we’ll talk about some of the other issues obviously in a few minutes, but assuming that those issues are eventually solved, it’s going to be an incredible experience. Once you’re inside, on the other side of the dock wall, it is everything that they said they would deliver, and they’ve delivered it.You can argue about how much it costs, you can argue about how it was financed, you can argue about Moshiri’s role in it, and all of that.
Paul: And we’ve done that on many occasions, and no doubt we’ll do it again in the future. But if you just put all that to one side, what we’ve got as a new home for Everson Football Club, I think is going to be and will be recognized as the best stadium in English football.Thank you.
George: Well, well, some boast.
Paul: And I’m not, I’m not just saying that as an Evertonian and I’m saying I’m, you know, when other fans from other clubs go there, I love to hear their opinions, because I think that they’re going to have the same experience because, you know, the away fans are located in the northeast corner, and they’ve got what to call it safe standing or rail seating like everybody in the lower section of the south stand have.
And it’s magnificent from a viewing perspective.I don’t think particularly there’s any more space than there was at Goodison, and I know we talked about this a long, long time ago.
And Andy, you may want to pass a couple of comments on this. The seats aren’t any wider, and the gap between one seat and the seat in front or the seat behind. And doesn’t appear to be much greater than most areas of Goodison. Let’s put it that way. But because it’s, it’s achieved the impossible of being open but feeling enclosed. If you know, if you know what I mean.
George: And from the video you sent last night, I’ve only got one question. I’m checking everything you’re saying on board because it did look fantastic.And the films I see, you know, if it was slashing with rain, would everybody stay dry?
Paul: It looks like it. It looks like it. I wonder about some of the disabled fans facilities are at the front of the South stand. And because I was in the South stand, it was difficult to judge whether or not the very front rows would be covered. I’m assuming that that is the case.
George:You’d have to work to that, wouldn’t you?
Paul: Yeah. One interesting thing about the inside of the stadium, actually, George, was that it was very, very windy outside of it, blowing a bit of a hooli outside. And yet inside the stadium, the air was still, no wind at all. I mean, I think that’s, you know, a function of it being totally enclosed and there being no gaps between the stands. But it was very, very calm inside the stadium, from a wind perspective.
So one assumes that everybody will be covered on those occasions when it rains on Merseyside. So yeah, so from all of those perspectives, the club is delivered, the architects delivered. And if all the other stuff that we’ll talk about in a minute gets sorted out in the years ahead, then it’s going to be a great place to watch football.
And I think it’s going to be a great place to play football. And I think we’re going to find it much easier to hear people always say that they love playing at Goodison and what a great place Goodison is and everything else. I think we’re going to find that football players who respond to atmospheres, who appreciate the value of the fan base, you know, a fan base are going to absolutely love playing at Bramley-Moore. Because there’s, from my perspective, there’s not there’s nothing like it. There’s certainly nothing like it in English football.
Andy: What?
Paul: And so, you know, from that perspective, there’s an awful lot to look forward to, which is, which is great. And people, people were standing, you know, I mean, to begin with, obviously, as I say, the match itself was somewhat irrelevant, and the greatest respect to the kids.
And there were some, you know, very decent footballers, given that it was an under 18, you know, two U-18 sides out there. And people were just standing there with silly grins on their faces
.And it was like, you know, well, it was just like, people are starting to think, this is going to be our home. This is where, you know, if you are, I don’t know, there’s a guy standing next to me, who I didn’t know, but I got to know during the game, and he’s like 25 years old.
And he’s saying, and he’d be listening to this, because he listens to talking to the blues. And you know, this place is going to be and he was pointing out where, where he’s bought his season ticket in the lowest south stand.
And I was thinking about it afterwards and thinking, this guy is going to stand there for the next, you know, God willing health and everything else. This guy’s going to stand there for the next 30 years and watch, watch football being played on that spot, the spot that he was pointing out to me. And so there’s no wonder he was standing there with a massive big grin on his face.
George: I was thinking this morning that you tell a story about, was it your granddad who played in the first match at Goodison? Great grandpa.
Paul: Right. And that is disputed by some people just before some people shout out at me.
George: Okay, I was just thinking the same thing that, you know, in 100 years time, there’ll be somebody going, yeah, my dad turned out on the very first time and played they played football on a Tuesday night, he was, he was, you know, it was already history, it’s a give us the perspective of a man who’s six foot five, Andy.
Andy: Well, obviously I wasn’t there last night but my experience had been 6.4 and goodness.
George: You’ve always been bigger to me, my bro.
Andy: My experience of being six foot four and Goodison is cramped and at times painful, so the thought of there being less wit in the new seating at Bramley-Moore doesn’t exactly fill me with many smiles and if the legroom is only marginally better and from all the measurements we were given it’s barely a couple of inches if that extra, then I’m sorry I would be somewhat disappointed.
I was hoping that with an investment initially advised to be a £500 million all in which is escalated ridiculously to well in excess of £800 million, I would have hoped that the seating would have been a little bit more spacious and a little bit more comfortable and a little bit more forgiving for people of above average proportions and I’m not on my own at being six foot four and I’m certainly not on my own at being a slight maybe a pound or two overweight and so from that perspective I’ve got to be honest from what I’m hearing and what I’ve read on a couple of forums since last night, I’m a little bit disappointed.
The immediate follow-up question I was going to come to you for is that I’ve driven past Bramley-Moore a number of times during its construction and I’ve been passed on the train and without a shadow of a doubt it looks the dog’s spheroid.
It looks fantastic and I’m sure at night when it’s lit up as it was last night it looks amazing.I wouldn’t counter that in any way shape or form but how long did it take you for to walk from Lime Street to the stadium in the full knowledge that you knew more or less which way you were going to walk?
Paul: 27 minutes, Andy.
Andy: 27 minutes. Yeah, okay. And coming, I’ll take you stayed till the end last night till full time.
Paul: I did and at the end there was probably maybe half of the crowd, so there’s probably around 5,000 people in the stadium at the final whistle.
Andy: So obviously, we don’t know why so many people left early, but.
Paul: Because it was bitterly cold and a lot of people had taken their kids and you know I don’t blame them to be honest.
I stayed for one reason and that was only because I wanted to see what it looked like when everybody was leaving and how it looked like outside the stadium when everybody was leaving.
Andy: Right, so you told us before about access into the stadium, the stewarding and everything, that was all hunky-dory, was it replicated upon ingress from the stadium?
Paul: Yes, bear in mind, obviously, there was a very limited number of people who were leaving the stadium at the time that I left.And you do have to you do have to sort of question how different it will be when there’s, let’s say there was 5,000 people left in the stadium at the end of the game, when there’s 10 times that number.
Andy: Yeah.
Paul: And I have heard that, you know, well, one of the strategies actually is to allow for a sort of a gradual sort of dissipation of people as against everybody leaving the stadium at one time, you know, and part of that will be the fact that the bars and the food outlets will remain open after the game. But obviously that’s untested and it’ll be interesting to see, you know, the next two events when the capacity is increased, whether or not there are any issues there
.I have a feeling that there’s not going to be, but, you know, we’re waiting to see.
Andy: OK, so you stayed to be on the final whistle to in effect to view everybody else leaving, so you were the last man standing.
Paul: Yeah, when you know, sort of, probably the last quarter of the crowd to leave here.
Andy: OK, and then and then you had to walk back to your hotel at Lime Street, which I assume then took roughly the same amount of time or maybe. Tapped longer.
Paul: Well, I walked three quarters of the way and then got a lift from somebody that I knew. But I think it would have taken a little bit longer and it had taken a little bit longer for a number of reasons.
Obviously, there were more people leaving the stadium than they were going to the stadium, because I went to the stadium early.
Secondly, obviously, even though it was only sort of just gone nine o’clock, it was dark. And the quality of street lighting, once you get outside of the stadium, is extremely poor.
So it is very, very dark as you walk along what used to be known as the Dock Road, according to exactly what the road is called now. But you know what I mean, the Dock Road.
So as you’re walking towards the city centre, all the docks are on the right-hand side and you’ve got warehouses and the 10 streets on the left-hand side. It was extremely dark. And in fact, the article I’ve already written today, I did put in that I had my daughters in her mid-20s attend a game by herself. I wouldn’t have felt necessarily comfortable without walking alone back into town. Not that there was anything threatening at all, but it was dark and it’s a long way to walk in the dark.
Andy: That’s what it’s a long, it’s a long way to walk in the dark. Yeah, so that that inevitably leads to the question what were the options available last night in terms of non walking.
Paul: There is also one other factor to contribute to the walk back. And that is that I assumed that I’m going to call it the dock road. Its right name will come to me in a minute, but I’m going to call it the dock road. I’d assume that that whole road would have been sealed off to traffic.
Andy: Right.
Paul: By the time we got to the time…
Andy: Is it Great Howard Street?
Paul: No, no, it’s a road below that.
Andy: OK, never mind. Carry on.
Paul: There’ll be people screaming at us, shouting what the name is. When you go to the Titanic Hotel and you went over the bridge with the tobacco warehouse on the left hand side.
Andy: Yeah.
Paul: And the road became partially open to traffic. So there was traffic going into town on the left hand side of the road. And there were people using electric scooters weaving in and out of pedestrians walking back. And there wasn’t sufficient density of people for that to cause a real problem.
But again, if there’s 10 times the number of people, it might have caused a problem. And I was surprised by that.So that’s, that’s my observations, in terms of the walk back. And obviously, once you get back into the city centre, then you’re entering an entirely different world, because there’s a vibrant night economy in Liverpool, and it’s busy anyway.
So, you know, a lot of those problems are resolved. But nevertheless, the walk from probably more back into the city is, and could be challenging. And I think challenging for anybody with young children, anybody with any mobility issues, and certainly anybody who perhaps was, is elderly or more infant. I think that would be significant, you know, you’ve been watching football for a couple of hours, you’ve already probably spent an hour or so getting there. And by the time you had something to eat and everything else, and then you got that walk back in order to get public transport or in order to get to your car, because, you know, obviously, a lot of people would have parked their cars in the city centre itself. And I think that’s a challenge.
And I have heard from a number of people who said, well, you know, I took my dad or, you know, I took my granddad, or I took my older brother, my older brother went, you know, old sister went, whatever. And they’ve already said that that walk was, was too much for them, and that they would have to consider whether they would go on a regular basis to evening matches, or matches in inclement weather, for example.
Andy: What time did the game kick off last night? Was it 7 or 7.30? So it finished circa 9 o’clock? Yes, yeah, around 9 o’clock.
So allowing for the first team on most evening games would be at least a 7.30, possibly 7.45, or even 8 o’clock kick off to satisfy TV, etc. Those games are not going to finish till now at 10 o’clock. And then if people are walking back into the city centre, as you did last night, to go back to your hotel, you’re looking at a minimum by the time you’ve got out of the stadium and shuffled along the initial pavements and whatnot in the many thousands of other people, you’re probably looking at maybe a 45-minute walk back to Lime Street.
Paul: Yeah, yeah, that’s probably about fair.
Andy: If you’re coming by train, forget it, you ain’t getting home.
Paul: Well, that depends upon where you’re going to, but there will be limited trains at that time from Lime Street.
Andy: So this brings us then to the questions of how are the various people involved in making such decisions going to resolve the dissemination of 52,888 people after an evening game, never back to trains and where the coach park is going to be.
Paul: I think it is on the opposite side to the city side. So as you come out of Bramley_Moore, I think it’s to the left as opposed to to the right as you walk back into the city.
Andy: And it’s to the North?.
Paul: Yeah, I think I think that’s the case. And I read somewhere I read in the planning document that there would be provision for 80 coaches. Yeah. And obviously, that would include away coaches as well. And obviously, there was none of that. Well, I didn’t go that way. Anyway, there was none of that.
Yes, I mean, if you break it down, and from a, you know, a non emotional perspective, and just say, as you just said, how does 53,000 people get away from the ground after a match?
Let’s just go through the options.
We’ve covered walking. So walking into the city centre is one. Yeah. Walking back to your car is two. And unless you’ve got a residence permit or a business permit, you have to walk at least 30 minutes to get back to your car. You may be able to get some private parking. And I think there’s around 9,000 parking spaces privately. But then I think they’re going to be quite expensive. And there’s about 5,000 on a Saturday.
That assumes that nobody else is parking in them. So that assumes that they’re all going to be empty before the game, which is obviously not going to be the case.Yeah. And so that’s walking and car and then you’ve got the issue. And a number of people have already said to me that the traffic congestion given that there’s such a small attendance was just remarkable.
There is a limited number of main thoroughfares in that part of town because it was never designed for large numbers of vehicles other than obviously in the past goods vehicles. So you got walking, you got a car, and then you’ve got the bus. And I believe there will be the normal bus service.
And although they haven’t specified how they’ll do this, they’re talking about increasing the frequency of buses along certain routes. But again, you know, I think that’s only a marginal solution to the overall problem.
And apparently there will be like the equivalent of soccer buses in the sense that there will be buses that go from somewhere in and around that region into the city and go out to Bootle as well. Because I think they’re wanting to create Bootle as a bit of a hub for people to go to.
So if you’re coming in from the north of the city, or you’re coming in from Southport, or any points north, you’d use Bootle as a sort of stopping off place and then use public transport from Bootle.
Andy: Well, I.
Paul: I haven’t seen those plans and I think there might have been one or two buses last night but I don’t think there’s anything significant.
Taxis form a big part of the planning application where they quite ridiculously said there was capacity for 15,000 taxi journeys or taxi journeys involving 15,000 passengers in and out.
Now that doesn’t seem possible given the number of licensed cabs and the number of licensed private hire vehicles and the number of licensed private hire drivers that there are in Liverpool. I’m not sure what the real figure is but I know that given the number of vehicles it’s just over 2,000 so I don’t know how you can get 15,000 people in and out?
Even if the roads are empty because where do those people park, where do those people drop off? I didn’t see a single empty or full taxi in my journey back to and from the city centre so that is something that has to be questioned.
Paul: Finally, the one that’s causing the most interest is the idea that Sandhills Station, which is about a 17-minute walk from Bramley-Moore, and it’s a walk that’s slightly uphill. So again, elderly and young children may be tired at the end of watching a match.It is slightly uphill, but it’s 17 minutes apparently.
And then we’ve got the situation whereby Sandhills is a two platform station. And it has, according to the Combined Authority, a maximum capacity of 11,000 passengers per hour. But that would have to assume that every single train that came into the station came empty and left full, which is obviously not going to be the case because it’s the regular services. It’s not trains that are starting their journey or finishing their journey at Sandhills.
These are trains that are going into the centre of Liverpool, or going out to Southport, or going out to Ormskirk.
Andy: Yeah.
Paul: So it’s difficult to see that that capacity figure could be reached. And of course, anybody that’s been to Sandhills, and I’ll stick some photographs up with the podcast later. Sandhills is not an easy station to gain access to. And currently the pedestrian access is very narrow and the stairs and there is a ramp obviously for wheelchair users or for people that need to use a ramp against stairs.
But again, it’s difficult to see how safely you can get that number of people through, even if the number of trains would permit that number of people from a safety perspective, it’s difficult to see.
And of course, part of the solution has been to create this sort of holding area, which has been called a fan zone. And I went down there at 7.30 this morning when it was just getting light again to take some photographs and just to see it for myself.
And obviously, I’m not a transportation expert by any stretch of imagination. It just seems incredible that people would want to cue in the system that looked like, well, I commented it looked like cattle pens in an agricultural show. I just don’t see how people would want to do that, especially if it was cold like it was last night and this morning, let alone if it was wet, because there’s no cover there.
And it seems like you’d wait for probably about an hour, possibly if you’re at the back of the queue in order to get a train. Doesn’t seem doesn’t seem accessible that you don’t you’d end up walking back into town if it takes you the same amount of time to walk back into town, why would you bother waiting at Sandhills to get to get a train? Unless you’re going in the opposite direction.
Andy: Yeah, unless you don’t know.
Paul: Yeah, and as you go into Southport or Ormskirk or any points in between. So these are, and I’m not being sensationalist, and I’m just talking.
Andy: Just before you go on, so last night for the test event.
Paul: Yeah.
Andy: And would it be correct to say that there was no additional public transport arranged to cope with the 10,000 expected supporters? Maybe nobody spoke to the local We’ve got a test event on, we’re bringing 10,000 people in.We need to find out what the issues are with A getting them in and B getting them out.
Paul: I’ve heard from a couple of people who messaged me today that there was a couple of shuttle buses, but how many exactly there were and where they were going. I think at least one went back to Bootle, maybe more than that. And there might have been one that went into the city center. That’s just based on what I’ve heard.
But again, from an information perspective, none of that information was available to anybody I saw or anything that I saw at the stadium itself, nor was it available in any communications in the city center.
So somebody coming into Liverpool via Lime Street, you might have expected for there to be an information kiosk, for example. Are you going to Brownley-Moore? Well, here are the options that you’ve got available to you. And that might be something that is sort of at the back of somebody’s mind and it might be developed in the future, but all we can say at this moment in time is that there isn’t any of that.
And but there needs to be, there needs to be, you know, there’s two things, two things here. There’s like, what can we do in the short term to make the situation better than it was? And then what can we do in the long term to make the solutions sustainable?
Andy: Another question then, if you don’t mind.
Would you imagine that the club will survey X number of the 10,000 there last night and X number of the 25,000 I believe it is for the second test event as to how they found their complete experience of getting to, getting in and out, getting away from Bramley-Moore Dock because don’t get me wrong, you know, it’s a it’s a fabulous looking stadium.
I’ve said that on team time, but I’ve always, always had doubts in my mind that the location whilst on the riverfront and everything, blah, blah, blah, you know, visible to every liner and every ship coming up and down the mercy, you know, fabulous exposure for that football club.
But at the end of the day, the primary people who will be using that stadium for football fans and how are they going to get in and out? And could the current infrastructure from what you’ve described is negligible, negligible. So between now and August, which isn’t very long,
George: Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha!
Andy: Yeah, and the opening day, the opening day of the season, or the first or the first or the first full house event isn’t an incredible amount of work to be done to put some kind of infrastructure in to make access to the stadium. I don’t mean from. You know, actually getting into the stadium, I mean getting to the stadium and then getting away from the stadium.More palatable than you found it last night.
Paul: Yeah, I mean, that’s a perfect summary of the situation that we face. Yeah, and the question is, how do we go about that? As I say, there has to be some short term measures to assist the process. And then there has to be some long term measures which are going to cost an awful lot of money.
But if we’re going to make, and, you know, one of the premises behind Bramley-Moore is to make Bramley-Moore the catalyst for economic growth in the north of Liverpool and, you know, talk about economic benefits in excess of 1.3 billion pounds a year.
Well, if we’re going to achieve that, we’re not, the stadium can lead on that, but it’s not going to be the stadium by itself that achieves that.
And certainly, if the transportation issues are not addressed and not resolved in a fairly swift manner, then Bramley-Moore is not going to be in a position to lead on that at all.
And therefore, the the investment opportunity, the economic growth opportunity, the regeneration opportunity, which is, at the end of the day, what is most important about getting more money into the pockets of people who live in in north in the north of Liverpool, making their lives better, and everything can be part of that process.
None of that’s going to happen if they don’t solve these problems.
Because as it stands in isolation, Bramley-Moore is not going to fulfill its brief. And the question is, what can a club do about it?
What can the Friedkins do about it? And I think the Friedkins have to play a big, big part in this.
They are used to infrastructure investment, they’ve built, you know, they’ve built big, big projects in really difficult parts of the world, in terms of, you know, some of their own, like hotel and holiday type businesses, they’re familiar with this whole process.
They’ve got to, they’ve got to get involved in this very, very quickly, because the danger is, if nobody from the club gets involved, and there is a question mark as to why we’ve not been able to make more progress so far.
I think a lot of it is to do with the fact that Moshiri was the owner. Frankly, dealing with Moshiri was extraordinarily difficult, and nobody was quite sure whether the club would still be in business. And so I get, I get that that’s a possible reason why things haven’t happened.
But as we talked about the other day, those problems are disappearing now, and or have disappeared completely. Friedkins have to come in now and they have to protect their own investment.
And they have to act as custodians on behalf of the club, because this is now our new permanent home. Goodison will be no more. This is our permanent home. They have to act to protect that, they have to act to protect the interests of the fans that go there, because they’re custodians of not only the custodians of the club, but they are custodians of the fan experience. And it’s their responsibility.
George: Can I ask a question? Whose responsibility is it to make sure that 53,000 people can get in and out of that stadium easily, safely, pleasured with?Whose responsibility is it? Ever since or the local council or the mayor or the development.
Paul: It’s a combination of Liverpool City Council, because they’re responsible largely as it stands for any of the planning developments, any of the planning, and therefore any of the development that goes on immediately around Bramley-Moore, as indeed they’re responsible for all of that across the city.
So that’s one.And then we’ve got the situation with what’s called the Combined Authority, which is Liverpool Sefton and a couple of other local authorities, which is run by Steve Rotheram in the same way that Andy Burnham runs a very similar entity over in Manchester.
Steve Rotheram and the combined authority have the legal powers to take control of all of the planning process through something that’s called an MDC, and that’s known as a Mayoral Development Corporation.
And it’s been used very successfully in Manchester, and it’s been used very successfully in London, for example. So the redevelopment of the area around the Olympic Stadium, for example, was done under what’s called an MDC. Andy Burnham has done it in Stockport, building houses and building office accommodation very successfully, and he’s now starting to do it in Bolton and Oldham as well.
So it can be done, and Steve Rotheram has the power to do that.
And by doing that, he would attract investment from central government. So that can be done. There’s a question as to why it’s not started yet, but I believe it might start very soon. But that is a process then that would lead to several years before whatever facilities they’re going to build actually become viable and become operational.
So we have to have a short term fix, as well as looking to the long term and planning for the long term and getting the investment for the long term.
The other point, I think, in terms of responsibility, and this is slightly more vague, more vacuous, I suppose, in the sense that you can’t really pin whose responsibility it is. The central government talking to the UK all the time about the growth story, the growth strategy that they have as a core of their economic policy, and they talk about like the Northern Powerhouse, they talk about devolution as being something that’s vital to this overall idea of leveling out across the country, this and the other.
That area of Liverpool is ripe for that type of investment, that type of development. If only they would get off their backsides and do it.And the question is, to anybody who might be an MP or a member of the House of Lords, or indeed a member of the government, and one or two members of the government listen to this podcast, and get on with it, because the opportunity is there, the need is there.
And if we believe what you say about the resources, the resources are there as well, you just need somebody to start the process. Let’s get it done.
George: The bit I don’t understand is everybody has known that this stadium was being built. Everybody knows that if you want Paul McCartney to play there, there’s going to be up to 50,000 people coming at a certain point.
How is it possible that what you have to say sounds like a mess? How is that developed?
People have known for ages. I mean, what is this thing about the parking restriction? It sounds like counter football fan behavior. Well, you sent a map yesterday of where you can park and it’s nowhere near the ground.
Paul: So within 30 minutes walking distance of the stadium, there is now a, at the moment, it’s only a temporary measure and it can last for 18 months. But I think it will probably be extended beyond that.
And it’s essentially a 24 seven parking permit system whereby only residents and businesses and I think each house has one visitor permit. And it’s going to be applied 24 seven 365 days a year, not just on match days, which was the original intention.
And one can only assume and if somebody wants to come back from the council and challenge this, please do. One can only assume that that’s been done for revenue raising reasons.
George: And.
Paul: But it’s completely counterproductive and contrary to the objectives, the economic objectives of the stadium. I understand why it has to happen on matchday because you can’t have a situation where 50,000 people all turn up in their cars and just park anywhere.
And, you know, that system has operated around Goodison and around Anfield and around every other major sports stadium in the country for years and years and years. I think everybody accepts that.
That’s just, you know, part of the deal. But to have it 365 days a year, when at best the stadium is going to be used 25 days a year, that makes no sense at all.
I dropped in and I got a message from a blue who runs a business very close to Bramley Mall and Murphy’s Gin Distillery. Really cracking guy. I didn’t know a guy called Terry met his dad. His dad was 82. Fantastic guy.
They asked me to just drop in and say, well, I didn’t ask him. He just invited me and I did. And he said he’s had no communications from the council. He had no communications from the club.
Anything at all about how he has to plan how he runs his business when. Actually, what he should be looking forward to is the fact that 50,000 scousers walk past this door every fortnight.
George: Yeah.
Paul: All looking to have a drink and have a good time. And he can provide that. Yet, nobody knocked on his door and told him, this is what you have to do as a business in order to enjoy those benefits.
George: I can’t believe that, Paul. It doesn’t make any sense to me at all.
Paul: And no, it makes no sense at all, but it is, it is the reality.
George: And how long have we got to get this fixed? It’s not going to get fixed, is it?
Paul: It’s not all going to get fixed before August, no.
George: Okay, so what’s the list of priorities? What’s top of the list?
Paul: Communications, road transport, because obviously rail transport is going to take years and years and years to develop. So road transport means car accessibility, bus coach accessibility and taxi accessibility.
People know where they can access or where they can enter into the zone around the stadium, and they know how they can get out. I think that’s that would, if people understood that, and people knew that X thousand people can get a taxi, X thousand people can get a bus, X thousand people can get or hundreds of people can get a coach to Liverpool city centre to Bootle town centre, wherever, then that would help enormously because people could then plan.
They’re going to say, right, I live here. And the easiest option for me to get home is to get the coach that it goes from somewhere closer around me more to I don’t know, Ormskirk and then I can make my own way home. All of those types of things take me direct to Lime Street so I can get the last train home. I live in London, because how many of the Sonians travel up from London to every home game, literally hundreds of them, all of those types of things that can be done between now and August. T
That absolutely can be done.
Well, it has to be a combination of the club, the local authorities who provide the licenses and the permits to allow these things to happen. But also the businesses that can provide the services as well.
And if you’re a coach company, or if you’re a bus company or if you’re run a fleet of taxis, you should be on the phone to the football club on the phone to Liverpool City Council on the phone to Steve Rotherton tomorrow morning, saying, I want to help you with this problem, I want to provide be part of the solution. This is what I can do for you.
And let’s work together to provide that solution. That’s the only way that this is going to happen. It needs to be a really collaborative effort by all of the interested parties.
George: This is a terrible thing to say, but so I’ve got to say, do you do you, you know, with your ears closer to the ground as it is, do you believe that there are people that Everton waiting madly by the phone for this to happen, that the council is wide open and get the phones manned and do you believe that that’s going to happen? I don’t see you having reported what you’ve reported.
Paul:No, at this moment in time, I don’t. But if I was Dan Friedkin, or if I was Marcus Watts, I could pick up the phone to Steve Rotherham and to Liverpool City Council, and to my employees at Everton Football Club and say, I’ve spent £500 million on buying this club, I own this stadium, needs to be a success, the fans deserve it to be a success.
If you can’t fix the problem, I will find somebody that can do it. And that’s what happens in business.Do you know you have a problem?
George: This is business, isn’t it?
Paul: Yeah, absolutely. It’s business, you know, we’re talking about not only are we talking about the future of the football club, we’re talking about the experience that the fans deserve in order to continue to support their football club, something that they’ve had for 10s of years, decades at Goodison, where they know what they’re doing, they know how to get in, they know how to get out, they know what the difficulties are, they know what the timings, different things are, that all needs to be translated into this new environment.
And the club has a responsibility, the local authority has a responsibility. And business owners who provide the services have a responsibility to those fans to make sure that the transition from Goodison Park to Bramley-Moore is as smooth as it possibly can be.
And I think that almost every stakeholder that I just mentioned in that process so far has failed the fans. And they have to do something about it. And they have to do it now, because we’re running out.
George: Time. Otherwise we are likely to get a terrible reputation, but the place is great if you can get there.
Paul: Well, the sad thing is, because everything the fans, just like other football fans, are so loyal that they’ll put up with almost anything in order to continue supporting the club.
Andy: I would just come in on that and suspect that if you know, Paul, because you’ve done it many times in the past, you’ve travelled up from London on the train with, as you’ve said, many, many blooms based in the south of England. Yeah. Well, I’ve just looked at the train and the last train from Lime, currently, the last train from Lime Street to get you into Euston is 10 to 9 in the evening.
Andy: After that, it’s the overnight train which doesn’t get into about six o’clock the following morning.
George: Now, how many people do the overnight train carry anyway?
Paul: It carries quite a lot, but you have a four-hour wait over at Crewe.
Andy: Yeah.
Paul: Because I looked at it last night, because actually, it would have suited my purposes to come back last night, but I couldn’t be using public transport.
Andy: No, so I mean, all right, I mean, I’ve only looked at, I’ve only looked at London, but we all know that there are fans that come in from all over the country, all over the country. And to follow it, you know, I know people who come up from Harrison and Worcester, more or less, every single game.God knows how they’re going to get back if they were coming on on the train.
You know, people are coming from North Wales. You know, there’s a huge contingent of supporters coming from North Wales. Now, most of them, I suspect, do come in on coaches. But correct me if I’m wrong, you said before that the coach parking facility is going to be somewhere in the region of 80 coaches, did you say?
Paul: That’s according to the planning document.
Andy: in that designated area to the north of the stadium, going away from the city towards Boonkul.
Paul: And that’s why I understand it.
Andy: Right. So even with modern day coaches, which are, you know, many of them are double deckers and might carry 70 people on them. Simple mathematics, so that’s less than 6000 fans, 6000 people.So if you’ve got, you know, where are other coaches going to part because the coach companies are going to, are going to be, surely the coach companies are going to be looking to snap up reserve places on that designated coach parking area that’s the closest to the ground in order to drop off their customers, their passengers, and to have the least walk back for their customers, passengers to get back on the bus to go home. You know, where else are coaches going to stop and drop off fans and then go and find somewhere else to park?
The logistics of getting to and from Bramley-Moore, but anyone who lives outside of the city, and I’m not saying that it’s going to be any easier for those guys, you know, the people who live in Liverpool, but let’s just say the people who live around Goodson, you know, who currently have a two minute walk, you know, they live on the bottom of Nimrod Street, they have a two minute walk to the ground. But if they live at the bottom of Nimrod Street and they’ve got to get to Bramley-Moore, how are they going to do it?
This is buses, back taxes. I’m flabbergasted that as I had said before, in the four years or more since planning permission was granted and they started draining the dock and digging up after the bottom of the Irish Sea to fill it, there appears to have been sod all done with regards to transport infrastructure for now on 53,000 people on a fortnightly basis and hopefully with progression in cup competitions and qualification for Europe, even more games.
It’s a lovely, lovely stadium, but holy smoke, I can only see logistical nightmares.
George: Well, there’s always teething problems, and every individual fan, you know, we live in Salford, we got to Goodison, it was hitchhiking and hoping you got a lift and maybe that bus, and I’m not going on the bus again because the crush is ludicrous and all that stuff, but you manage it and people, individuals, will be making, everybody in Nimrod Street, for example, will be ahead of what we’re talking about, and so they should be, and go, no, I know I’m going to get there, and there will be teething problems.
What’s frightening about this conversation is that some of the things that are missing, like Paul’s description of Sandhills railway station,
Andy: I’ve been in and out of Sandhills, it’s not a nice environment, as Paul said, you know, walking from the stadium, and I’ve done the walk from the Titanic to Sandhills, yeah, it’s a 15-20 minute walk, you know, and that’s, you know, that’s if you’re in you know, any kind of infirmity, that’s going to become a half-hour walk
And then, you know, to go into a cattle pen, for want of a better description, to try and get eventually get up onto the platform and hopefully have to train then, whether you’re going Southport, Southport or Ormskirk Way or back into the city, it’s going to take forever.
George: If you go back into the city from that station, where do you end up in Liverpool?
Paul: Central. Moorfields and then Central.
Andy: Yeah.
George: And has anybody investigated the idea that on match day, there’s nothing but trains shuttling between those two stations?
Andy: You don’t know a lot, do we?
Paul: The lines are pretty much running to capacity as it stands, George. This is the two platform station and the trains that come in and trains that go out. I’ve got four coaches and they’ve got a maximum capacity, including standing of just slightly more than 700 per train.
Even when you calculate, trains coming in are completely empty, which they wouldn’t be because Saturday is a busy day for travelers in and out of the Liverpool city centre.
And of course, in the evening, Liverpool has its own night economy. So there are people moving into the city at night time when games are being played or when games are finishing. You know, the game finishes after five o’clock on a Saturday evening.
That coincides with the period when a lot of people are moving into the city centre for a night out theatre and for something to eat. Go to a bar, nightclubs, et cetera, et cetera, whatever. So those capacity figures are somewhat misleading because the trains already have occupants on them. So that reduces the ability to load more people at Sandhills. You could talk for hours about all of this.
The issue is, for me, who’s going to provide the solutions or who is going to take charge of the responsibility for thinking about these things and thinking about them quickly.
George: It should have been thought about, but you.
Paul: Yeah, raising the money that’s needed to create solutions, create the most immediate solutions that will work.
And then, you know, invest in the long term solutions that make the whole thing viable and assist as I say, go back, you know, let’s go back to first principles. What we need to do is we need to invest in that area.
In order to generate economic growth, which then generates increased incomes and better lifestyles for the people who live there. That’s what this is all about.And yeah, we want successful efforts in our club, of course we do. And but everything should be part of that and everything should be the driver of that. But as I said earlier, and as I said in my article, we can’t do it alone. We need the support of local government, national government and of businesses in order to be able to do this.
George: I couldn’t agree more and I’m going to be slagged off and called a naysay. Surely that conversation should have started the minute they went here.We’re going to build this stadium. You’re talking about.
Andy: You would have thought so, wouldn’t you?
George: Yeah, I do think so and
Paul: To an extent, whilst I agree with you totally, and if we were having a private conversation, we’d probably go into this in more detail. I think there’s no time for looking backwards.
George: Yeah, I appreciate that too. But still in all it’s I just don’t like the fact that our name as a football club will be the one that where they are. Well, it’s just it doesn’t work. It’s rubbish.
When there are other people involved and should have been involved, but you’re right. Don’t. There’s no point going back and going. It’s his fault. It’s their fault. It’s their fault.
Paul: I think what we can say legitimately
George: So.
Paul: That these issues are not really issues that should be raised in a fan podcast. These are issues that, you know, local leaders, elected representatives, MPs, local business people, the club itself, even if they haven’t raised them in the past, should be raising them today.
George: But the truth is that you don’t believe that that’s what’s happening. Of course, it’s not happening.
Paul: I’m saying it should happen.
George: Jesus Christ almighty.
Paul: And the challenge is how do we get to the point where the people who hold the budgets, the people who have accountability and responsibility, actually start doing the things that need to be done. That’s the That’s the key that unlocks
George: when you’ve got the third premiership game in a row delayed because the fans aren’t in the stadium. That’s when they start moving masses.
Paul: Well, you may have, I think you’ve got a point there when, sorry, you have a point when, when whoever the broadcaster is, pans the camera around the stadium, and a third of the seats are empty, because people are having problems getting into the stadium, because of transportation issues.
And, or people are even worse.People are leaving early, because they’ve got to get the last train, or they want to make sure that they are at the top of the taxi queue, or the bus queue, whatever. And that’s not a good look for the club, and it’s not a good look for the Premier League.
Andy: We’re not.
Paul: And it’s also not good for the fans because that’s not what the fans pay for….
George: Ooh! No!
Andy: The fans are investing a lot of money to go and watch their football team in a brand new SuperDuper Stadium. And they will watch their football team in a brand new SuperDuper Stadium.But the time and effort in getting there and getting away could turn people off.
George: Well, the issue here is not actually getting there because just listening to our conversation, I’m thinking, right, when I go to Bramley-Moore, I’m getting there early. I hope there’s something interesting for me to look at.
Are there shops around Bramley Moore? What am I gonna do?Are there coffee bars? Are there nice pubs? La, la, la, la, la. I’ll deal with that. I’ll sit there for two hours. I’ll take a book with me. I’ll take a cushion. I’ll take a blanket. The problem is getting out of the place.
Andy: Yeah.
George: and getting home, whatever that might be. Yeah, you’re right.
Andy: And I’m not and I’m not just talking about the out of town fans like us three would be You know, I may know bones about it. I would be more into it Yeah I can only envisage you know a night match at brambling ore I think i’ve been I think i’ve been it’s and I know i’ve said many many times I will never Ever leave a game before the final whistle.I don’t care if we were losing 10-0
I Would never leave a game before the final whistle, But you stay to a night game With an eight o’clock kickoff and god forbid a cup game that went to extra time and penalties You’re not going to be getting on much before maybe one one o’clock in the morning And that’s warrington 20 miles away
George: I live in the South.
Andy: Hahahaha
George: Look, so long as we beat United on Saturday, that’s all that matters really.
Andy: Yes, that is true.
George: Yeah, you’ve got to get these things in perspective. Crushes and crayons and catches and people walking around Liverpool when it’s raining, which it does so rarely and not don’t really matter.So long as Fernandez is sent off and we went five.
Andy: Thank you.
Paul: All right, we’re in danger of covering ground that we covered the other day. So let’s draw a line under all of this. And yeah, well, let’s reconvene after the Saturday 1230 kickoff.
Andy: Yeah.
George: I think it’s been really, really good, uh, useful podcasts. Really good. Glad we did this.
Paul: Well, thank you both for asking me questions and I was very, very fortunate to be able to go to the game.
Andy: No, I was just going to say, thank you for making the effort of getting there. Yeah.And if we’ve come across as being negative, obviously, we apologize, but we have to have some realism in the discussions that we have about football, albeit about the business side of football.
It’s got to be realism. And the realism is that for all the good that Brownley Moore has about it in terms of, you know, it’s appeal, it looks the atmosphere that we expect it to generate from being in effect of their fate. And hopefully the atmosphere will make a better fit for the visitors. At the end of the day, there are issues on a lot of them that need to be addressed and addressed quickly.
Paul: Well said, Andy.
Okay, guys, Let’s just finish with if, as and when, not if, as and when we get all of these other issues sorted out, with the progress we’re making on the pitch, and one hopes that continues and will continue under David Moyes.
On Saturday and beyond, Evertonians are going to have such a phenomenal time to use a certain manager’s expression at brand new more. I’m not sure how to describe it. It is stunning. It is amazing. And there are going to be some brilliant, brilliant occasions. It won’t be Goodison. And it’s already feels different to Goodison.
And it feels like it’s ours. You walk in there and you feel like this is not a soulless bowl. This is Everton Football Club.And yeah, and anybody who’s lucky enough to get the opportunity to go there, either in the test events or in the early games of next season, take him. These are going to be, Dan Meis used to tell me that he wanted to create the hottest tickets in town. These are going to be the hottest tickets in town.Despite all of the issues that we’ve just been talking about, it is a phenomenal place.
It’s a brilliant place to go and watch football. Let’s hope we’ve got brilliant football to watch in a brilliant place. Yeah. Right. That’s it. That’s it for me.
Andy: Don’t worry, I’m going to jump in here.
Paul: I have to go, I’ve got a train to catch.
Andy: Why didn’t you wait already?
George: I’ve got to put my wife, too.

Laughter….
Paul: See you there guys. Right. All right, guys. Thank you so much. Bye. Thanks for listening.